PDA

View Full Version : Coherent: sword vs emptyhand?



Rob Turtle
24th September 2003, 10:21
All,

a conversation form yesterday turned to Ueshiba's techniuqe. The softenss, blending, and circularity of the emptyhanded work. But the sudden explosiveness of the weapon work (short staff, sword/ bokken).

Trying to go beyond the simple "are they the same art" question - I take it as absolutely yes - how do the two inform/ relate to the other.

The element of timing is obviously there in both (and he had phenomenal timing) ... but I am particularly looking at the difference between the smooth and sudden movements. The difference between blending and redirection of force with the emptyhand, and concentrated release of force with the sword.

Short of just saying "atemi" as the only point of crossover, would people care to discuss the elements of the one in the other:

i.e. circularity and smoothness in the sword work
repease of force in the emptyhand

Rob Turtle

p.s. while not a practitioner of aikido (the question is asked at a fundamental theoretical level), I am aware that different styles within aikido may have different views. I apologise in advance should contention arise

Dex
24th September 2003, 14:45
I see no difference between ken and tai, nor jo in fact.

Osensei said when practicing tai, think sword and vice versa.

Every movement in tai can be seen as coming from ken. The most 'simple' way to see it is shiho-nage I suppose, where happo-giri can be seen by anyone. (I am only talking of sword here, not blending and kokyu)

When applying (reverse) kote gaeshi (a tai technique) Osensei said that you must 'cut behind' as you enter...in this case the sword is not easily seen until it is practiced many times. It could be argued that doing the movement this way allows the body to develop centrifugal/centripetal power but in fact after much practice it really shows what a genius he was.

The sword allows us to extend in all directions while keeping balance. (Ain't saying I can do that, though)

Tai no henko: pic here (http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/tainohenko.htm)

This is the basic blending movement, but Osensei taught in such a way that with a sword in your mind, you were avoiding the man in front of you and cutting at the man (who was) directly behind you.

After tai no henko, kokyu...breath power (I hope you are familiar with this principle)

After kokyu...happo giri (8 direction cut)

So if we make a formula... tai no henko + kokyu + happo giri (or indeed just a simple sword cut) = shihonage.

This is very simplistic of course. I'm sure there are better examples.

*kokyu primarily means the spiraling motion here.

Confused? you will be. :)

Ron Tisdale
24th September 2003, 14:50
Try looking at one of John Stevens first books on his teacher, Rinjiro Shirata. It shows a good example of the connection between the sword and empty hand techniques. I can't remember the name just now...I'll try to get it at home tonight.

Ron

Rob Turtle
24th September 2003, 14:54
I am familiar with the "it's all the same with the sword in the hand" speil :)

However, what I am interested in is the different qualities of the movement/ power:
fluid power vs shock power

I see that you take a physical technique from sword (e.g. cut down) and get a technique in emptyhand (shiho-nage?). However, the expression of power is very very different.

Expression of power goes right through to the deepest internals of the movement - not just the outer form.

Are we saying that the only crossover (however large it might be) is at the level of gross external form only?

:)

Rob Turtle

Dex
24th September 2003, 15:44
No..I was just trying to make it simple.

I will consider this and respond in a few hours.

Rob Turtle
24th September 2003, 15:53
I was never one to take the easy answer where a more complex one lurked.

Many thanks for your time

RT

Ron Tisdale
24th September 2003, 16:08
I can't speak to what you have experienced in the aikido you have been exposed to. When I suggested the book about Rinjiro Shirata, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the external form was all that was there. My exposure to Stevens Sensei's technique matches both external and internal (not that there might not be very subtle differences).

I do know that the sharpness you refer to in the sword technique is alive and well in the yoshinkan empty hand practice, and in other styles as well. Perhaps you could point to your source for your belief that the two are different "internally". Personally, I think the film 'Budo' might have some good examples to examine. I'll try to take a look and see if I see the differences you refer to.

Ron Tisdale

Rob Turtle
24th September 2003, 16:27
When watching footage of Ueshiba - with the two person bokken/ shinai "sparring", you often see Ueshiba find an opening and with excusite timing enter and "strike" (stopping short of the intended target by a couple of inches). The move is sudden and shocking - real "release" of power. Often accompanied with sound (kiai) in best co-ordinated sudden expulsion of breath with power style.

When watching his throwing, I see smooth actions, rounded, flowing. Never a sudden release of power.

For those with Chinese experience, we are speaking of the difference between smooth balance taking and fajing.

The difference comes from the internals. If flowing and always redirecting force, simply acting as a "pivot". Force comes in, is smoothly accepted and fed back (with suitable change in angle). If releasing force, one must first have stored. Not the same internal model:

Smooth = never store, always redirect
Sudden = store and release

RT

Ron Tisdale
24th September 2003, 17:11
Maybe my memory is failing me, but I seem to recall Ueshiba doing both of your examples in the film 'Budo'. A prime example would be where he has one person grab his hips, and several others then come and grab his upper body. He then gives a great kiai, and throws them. An obvious great, sharp release of power.

Ron

chrismoses
24th September 2003, 17:14
Two things, in the footage of O-Sensei I have seen his open hand work is very much like what you describe for his sword work. He seems totally rooted, then explodes past uke as one decisive movement. I've seen footage of him moving slowly and very controlled, but generally he seemed to be demonstrating the subtlety of the movement and so was intentionally slowing things down.

Second, in the sword I study, the early movements are slower and precise. Then as you get better, you contract your movements, refine them and hopefully come to understand the minimum movement necessary for full effect. I think Aikido training is like that. First the movements are slow and large, partly because that's much easier to teach than little subtle stuff. As you progress, you trim the fat and strive to find the minimum movement and effort. Perhaps the phenomenon you are describing is advanced sword work vs. more basic taijutsu?

Dex
24th September 2003, 21:24
http://www.aikiweb.com/weapons/gleason1.html

This post by Mr Gleason is good...however I am not sure it can answer your question. Not many questions of that depth can be answered without training.

Eric Ling
25th September 2003, 03:04
Can you imagine an aikido technique such as kotegaeshi or shiho-nage done with the same power and intent as you would a real sword cut intended to finish an opponent? I suspect few people could take the ukemi. I think part of the difference between sword work and empty hand work perceived by Mr. Turtle is that Ueshiba does not actually cut his partner and is therefore free to express power, whereas when throwing he has to be mindful of his partner's safety.

With regard to "fa jing", you might find that tenchi nage and aiki nage express this concept.

Brian Owens
25th September 2003, 08:03
Originally posted by Eric Ling
I think part of the difference between sword work and empty hand work perceived by Mr. Turtle is that Ueshiba does not actually cut his partner and is therefore free to express power, whereas when throwing he has to be mindful of his partner's safety.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Also, a question: Mr. Tisdale refers to footage of O-sensei in the film "Budo." I have a film called "Budo: Art of Killing" that is a showcase of several martial arts. The Aikido segment features Gozo Shioda, not O-sensei.

Is this the film you are refering to, or is there another film called "Budo." If there is another, do you know if it is still available, and from where?

Rob Turtle
25th September 2003, 09:55
Ron Tisdale:
I remember the scene you refer to - however, this is but one example that I have rarely seen repeated.

Chris Moses:
good point about the decisive move past uke in the emptyhand having similarities with the sword work. Though I think this was less evident in the later Ueshiba?

Eric Ling:
a fair point. However ... (didn't you just know that was coming :) ) ... if one means that one takes the technique as usually done, and does it with power throughout - one indeed is going to remove someone's arm and be hitting them with the soggy bit. However, one can take the balance as per the start of the technique, then, once the balance has already gone, instead of being so "polite" in keeping the movement soft and fluid, "express" power through a very small movement that completes the action. This need not cause undue discomfort in uke (though they will hit the ground a little faster), and has the benefit that one is training in a smaller frame.

In as much as this is the case, perhaps Chris Moses' second point is correct in that one is not comparing equal levels of demonstration of the empty and sword hand work. However, I have footage of Ueshiba in mind for both.

Dex:
it is an interesting article - many thanks:
"Cutting with the Japanese sword is an expansive motion in which the tip of the sword must be unified with ones center."
This is interesting as it brings about a distinction in the ways "expansion" is used. If one compares the related principle of "extension" to blend with the uke's motion in order to redirect ... we have:
expansion as continuous and smooth (usually seen in empty hand - extension, general)
expansion as sudden and decisive (usually seen in cut of sword work- extension, directed)

"complementary antagonism of flexibility and relaxed power together with sharpness and precision"
I guess this sums it up for me: I readily see the sharpness in the sword techniques, but the very fluidity and smoothness of much of the emptyhand "dulls the edge"?

RT

Mrose
25th September 2003, 11:51
I would suggest watching a video of Gozo Shioda demonstrating Aikido. you will find that his techniques are quite "sharp". In fact, while watching a video of him, that is the first word that came to mind. At the same time, however, many great Aikido sensei also studied kenjutsu. Their techniques seem to be a bit more fluid and relaxed, yet there is still a sharpness. Maybe it is something you just have to feel and not talk about. but what do I know.;)
Matt Rose

Ron Tisdale
25th September 2003, 14:30
Greatings all,

I rewatched three films of Ueshiba last night, all available from Aikido Journal. Aiki Budo (from the 30's), is the one I refered to earlier. The other two examples are from the 50s and 60s and are on the new DVD that has examples of GS, MS, Tohei, and the second Doshu.

I find that the sharpness of technique (in relation to M. Ueshiba) is there in all three films, but it grows more and more subtle, and is obvious less frequently as Ueshiba ages. In regards to the Aiki Budo demonstration, even with leading techniques, Ueshiba often seems to finish with a sharp flourish, or cut, that has a dramatic effect on his partners. But that's just what I see...

Ron