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the Khazar Kid
10th June 2000, 23:22
Is the classic cross armbar actually used in koryu Jujitsu styles? Every variation of it I have seen looks like it leaves some important part of your leg or foot where it can be bitten by the opponent. Was it originally used only after enough heel kicks to the opponent's face that they wouldn't feel much like biting you anymore? Or was it originally used in Yoroi Kumi Uchi (armored fighting, clearly no one can bite through steel laminated greaves!!)?

George Kohler
11th June 2000, 01:33
Hello,

I noticed that this is your second post, so welcome to E-Budo. But, let me inform you that it is the policy of E-Budo to sign your first and last name on your posts.

Sincerely yours,

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George Kohler
Genbukan/KJJR
Kusakage Dojo-cho

will szlemko
11th June 2000, 08:19
Hi all,

I think you are refering to juji gatame. (Lying on your back with uke arm between you thighs) If that is the case then yes there are variations where you are in no danger of being bitten, but more importantly this was not designed as a control technique. It was designed to shatter an arm and then be released quickly. Done in this manner you are only on the ground for a couple of seconds before you are on your feet again. With this time frame even if they intend to bite you they will have to be very quick and skillful to clamp down on what is a rapidly moving target as their arm is being broken.

will

Aaron L. Seay
12th June 2000, 22:04
I know of one solution to the leg-being-bitten situation, which I learned from an excellent Judo coach Piotr Cheltowski...from this position he would usually extend the leg very quickly, which had the effect of smacking the uke's face with the back of nage's knee. Sounds screwy, but you can definately generate enough power to "distract" the opponent while the arm is being snapped (It's also probably sneaky enough to avoid being noticed by the judges, but I didn't say that)

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Aaron L. Seay

CKohalyk
13th June 2000, 05:07
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is the classic cross armbar actually used in koryu Jujitsu styles?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to answer the initial question:

Yes, juji-gatame is used in koryu. 2 examples are Takenouchi-ryu and Kiraku-Ryu(and I am quite confident that this small list could include nearly every koryuJJ), although they have different names for the technique.

Regards,

CKohalyk

efb8th
23rd June 2000, 02:04
Hi, Everyone,

Just agreeing with Will; that's why Dr. Kano called it "Ude Hishigi Juji Gatame" (Elbow crushing arm hold).

For those who have been there, sorry about the painful memory.

Dale
25th June 2000, 15:36
'Juji Gatame Ude Kujiki' or 'Cross set arm breaking' is definately used in Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu (a style that possibly predates Takenouchi Ryu). The way it is practiced leaves no opportunity for the leg to be bitten.

Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon
Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu

Rob
29th June 2000, 17:26
I can't speak for Koryu, but certainly the way it is taught in Shorinji kan Ju Jitsu (in which I train) Torii places his leg in such a way that it could be used to dislocate or break the jaw, before applying the arm bar.

However, as I think was said earlier, this is a last resort, arm break, not a controlling hold.

hwyl

Robert Wallis

MarkF
30th June 2000, 09:04
Well, as long as everyone else is giving a couple of yen, I was taught may moons ago only to hit with the top leg and then place the foot/ankle (left foot if doing it right-sided) up against the right side of uke's neck. That it takes but a scond for someone to tap out in randori, or the elbow will be crushed in another half-second or so.

efb8th
8th July 2000, 15:29
Hi, everyone,

In Dan Zan Ryu (I know, Gendai) Master Okazaki called these cross-arm locks "Hayanada" (quick blade) and gives applications with two legs over, one leg over and both insteps under uke at side and neck (knees bent and clamping upper arm). The form used is dictated by the type of nage applied to ground uke in the kata.

TheGrappler
14th July 2000, 20:27
An alternative that hasn't yet seemed to catch on is to place the upper foot actually on the opponent's face, rather than on the ground. Keeps the teeth away from the sensitive area behind the knee, especially if you are wearing boots.

Later,

Grappler

Neil Hawkins
14th July 2000, 21:39
Mr Grappler,

Welcome to E-budo, but I should remind you that it is the policy here to always use your full name.

The best way to do this is to add it to your signature in your user profile, that way you never need to remember.

Regards

Neil

Greg Palmer
16th July 2000, 11:02
When this lock is applied in Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu the leg across the throat is held very firmly in place and the hips are are driven off the ground against the elbow being locked. This further adds to pressure being applied to the throat. It ALMOST feels like a choke when done correctly. There is no chance of the leg being bitten whenthe attacker's head is held firmly against the ground and the defender's leg is up against the attacker's chin and throat.