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Ken Allgeier
26th September 2003, 00:26
I was wondering if anybody knows, if their are dailects in the Japanese lanuage?For example the english language has in America different dialects, or in England or the former British empire.




ken allgeier

Daniel Lee
26th September 2003, 01:24
Ken,

There certainly are! While all modern day Japanese speak standard Japanese (which is a fairly modern construct based heavily on the Tokyo Yamanote dialect), Quite a few dialects (hougen in Japanese) exist, with the Kanto region (especially Tokyo) and Kansai region having the most culturally influential dialects. Differences include the lexicon, intonation, inflections and even speech sounds.

My teacher speaks a country area Kanto dialect, and when teaching me a preliminary sword kata years ago where I needed to move away from a sword, he called out "yogero!" (get out of the way!). Standard Japanese speakers would have said "yokero!". Needless to say I received the strike cleanly on the head - I've learnt a fair bit about sensei's dialect since then. :D

Earl Hartman
26th September 2003, 01:32
I was once watching a televison show about Sugaru shamisen, a regional style of shamisen playing native to Akita Prefecture, I believe. A master of the style, an old man, was discoursing about it, and I realized after a few moments that I could not understand a word he was saying. I was chagrined by this, since I consider my Japanese to be fairly decent, and I had no trouble following most of what I heard on TV, including the news, which can get ptretty complicated. I called my wife (she is a native Japanese from Ishikawa Prefecture) and asked her to listen and tell me what he was saying. She listened for a few minutes, shrugged her shoulders and said, "I have absolutely no idea what this guy is talking about."

We both got a chuckle out of it.

Daniel Lee
26th September 2003, 01:41
Boy I know what you mean Earl - that Akita dialect is thick! It seems that recently, even a lot of the young Akita people aren't able to speak their local dialect as well as the older generation. They had a program where several young celebrities went to Akita and learnt the dialect to make it more popular. They failed miserably, but it was fun watching them!:p

Ken Allgeier
26th September 2003, 03:58
Thank you Earl & Daniel.


I have a question, would the dialectic differences in the Japanese language change the meaning of a phrase. For example the maxim
" Karate ni sente nashi" which can understood to mean.

1. There is no first attack in Karate.

2. There is no first hand in Karate.

3.In Karate the initiative does not exist.

In the different regions would the meaning change according to each dialect.


Thank You

ken allgeier

Steve Delaney
26th September 2003, 04:26
I think it means this: "In Karate there is no (Moral) attack. " When you are protecting yourself and your family, morals don't come into it, so attacking to protect is fair game.

Sidarta
26th September 2003, 05:29
Mr. Allgeier, when you put that the English language has in America different dialects do you mean continental English-speaking America (USA & Canada)? In case that was what you meant, are there actually dialects there? I ask because here in Brasil there are many versions of the language spoken that change according to each region but these are considered simply different accents. Pardon me if this is going too off topic but i could not help the curiosity.

cheers,

Mekugi
26th September 2003, 06:12
Originally posted by Sidarta
Mr. Allgeier, when you put that the English language has in America different dialects do you mean continental English-speaking America (USA & Canada)? In case that was what you meant, are there actually dialects there? I ask because here in Brasil there are many versions of the language spoken that change according to each region but these are considered simply different accents. Pardon me if this is going too off topic but i could not help the curiosity.

cheers,

Japanese dialects are far and away from the English version. It's almost like (but not totally) the Pidgen that natives speak in Hawaii. Almost another language.

The way the US sees a lot of the dialect spoken in The Queens English abroad is similar, although they are using a different speech pattern and they are voicing their vowels and constanants differently, one came generally make out what is being said (sometimes). This is however completely lost in slang, which can be almost entirely gutted of any resemblence of the English language (Pidgen for instance).


Some good Websites are:

Dialects of Japan (http://nlp.nagaokaut.ac.jp/hougen/index-E.html)

The Japanese Dialects (http://www.threeweb.ad.jp/logos/japanese.html#dialect)


For fun/specific pages:
The Osaka Ben Filter...change anything to Osaka ben Yankaaaaaa (http://www.yorosiku.net/yan/osaka.html)

Kumamoto Ben (http://kumamotoben.jp/index-en.html)

Sore wa nagoya ben dagya (http://mediazone.tcp-net.ad.jp/MISO/EBITENW/NB/)


Yamagata Ben (http://www.informatics.tuad.ac.jp/net-expo/mapping/hougen/en/index.html)

Kyo no Kotoba (The Kyoto Ben) (http://www.informatics.tuad.ac.jp/net-expo/mapping/hougen/en/index.html)

Tosa Ben (http://www.baobab.or.jp/~stranger/mypage/tosaben.htm) Chikura Ben babaaayyy (http://www.town.chikura.chiba.jp/page/dialect/dialect.html)

Nosaka Motoba (http://www.kashiwakuma.com/nosaka/dialect-e.htm)

Hogen Kotoba (http://www2.rpa.net/~joeroa/hogen.htm)

shieldcaster
12th October 2004, 07:50
Daniel, that headshot story is pretty good. When I was training JKD in Liverpool back in 97-98, I had the same thing happen, but it was my nuts. Funny thing was, we were both speaking English...

Dialects, eh?

Michael Bland
12th October 2004, 20:14
For my part, I never found most japanese dialects so different from standard Japanese... I found more that Japanese people like to think they are all unique, despite the fact that they all tend to sdiffer from standard japanese in the same ways.

In fact, in traveling through northern japan or in Ibaraki or Kansai, etc. with Japanese people, I understood far more than Japanese people I was with from Tokyo. Go figure.

They were all so amazed out how different people spoke... and for me, I though it was all pretty much Japanese except for some local words and 1 or two word endings that varied from region to regrion - which again were similar in how they differed from standard japanese.

*shrug*

Then again, my father can't understand anyone who speaks english if SLIGHTLY off from SAE, and I have little or no problem no matter what the accent is that is applied. I'm sure it is a similar case of some people being more attuned to language than others.

Mekugi
12th October 2004, 20:22
Hondattara, nomini iko myaa.


Originally posted by Michael Bland
For my part, I never found most japanese dialects so different from standard Japanese... I found more that Japanese people like to think they are all unique, despite the fact that they all tend to sdiffer from standard japanese in the same ways.

Michael Bland
12th October 2004, 23:48
naa, nondara iigappe yo!

Still pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

Mekugi
12th October 2004, 23:59
Your results may vary. Easy to read, hard to hear in my case.


Originally posted by Michael Bland
naa, nondara iigappe yo!

Still pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

shieldcaster
13th October 2004, 00:49
I know in my case, I don't know enough Japanese to know if it is dialect or personal accent, but I can tell a difference. Many of my students (I teach English) cannot tell the difference between my accent (general Mid-West American) and the guy I replaced (Australian).
Unless its an obvious difference ('obvious' being subjective, obviously) like High German and Bayrish, it's hard for me to tell dialect. Hell, I still can't understand half of the Cajuns I meet. And every Arabic speaking country seemingly has its own sub-language that clings to an Arabic base as an excuse for some ethno-nationalistic teamwork thing. Try using your well-studied Iraqi schoolhouse Arabic at a market in Marekesh--or at a market in Baghdad, for that matter.
I am looking foward to be likewise confused about Japanese...

Daniel Lee
13th October 2004, 01:29
As most Japanese dialects use pretty much the same verbs, nouns and adjectives, I can see Michael's point re. most dialects being easy to understand, but I think the difficult part is in understanding their dialect-specific inflections, postfixes and unique words.

Just a couple of months ago I was back in Kanazawa, and overheard an eldery woman talking with her grandson at a bus stop. He was only about 7 or 8, and had figured out which bus to take from the timetable. Praising him, she said:

Anta wa hontou ni katai ko wa ne

I looked at the kid and he didn't look too physically stiff or inflexible or anything. Wasn't until I questioned some locals later and discovered katai also means clever in that corner of Japan. Then there's the lexicon non-Kanazawa folks normally have never heard of, like the verb goboru (to get stuck in snow). Now there's a world of fun :D Oh Matt, BTW, if you haven't packed some decent gum boots for the Ishikawa winter, consider buying or getting some shipped over soon. I'm serious!

shieldcaster
13th October 2004, 01:53
Daniel, thanks for the boot tip. Luckily, I had some good boots shipped before I left. They're Gore-Tex/Thinsulate, so esentially you could be naked with these on a glacier and you'd still be warm and dry. Well, your feet would anyway. Good traction, good wear, but I'm affraid their combat boot black color may clash a bit with the local rainbow assortment I've been seeing in the stores lately...
Substance over style, I guess.