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Finny
27th September 2003, 07:30
Just a quick question for Mr. Lowry while he seems to be the 'flavour of the month' here on E-Budo.

I just bought "Traditions" and rereading "The Spears of Hozoin", I remembered a little anomaly which had puzzled me.

"For many years, the Hozoin monks lived in simple solitude, making their renowned pickles and contemplating the scriptures of Kegon thought. It wasn't until about 1620, with the appointment of Kazukenbo Innei as chief abbot, that things began to change."

Then,
"By the mid-1500s, the Hozoin had become a pilgrimage site, not just for members of the Kegon sect, but for wandering martial artists as well, who wished to test their abilities."

Is this just a typo that was meant to read "mid 15th Century"?

I know it's hardly the most insightful question ever asked on E-Budo, but it is something that has puzzled me for a while.
Apologies if it's already been dealt with out in web-land.
:p

Cheers,

Finny
28th September 2003, 08:53
Was meant to read "just a typo that was meant to read mid 1600s"

:D :D :D :D :rolleyes:

Dave Lowry
30th September 2003, 16:33
Dear Mr. Finn,
Yes, appears to be a typo; doubtless my own.

Should read "mid-15th century."

Cordially,

Earl Hartman
30th September 2003, 20:45
Uhhhhh.....isn't "mid-15th century" the mid-1400s? If things started to happen around the mid 1600s, that's the mid 17th century, right?

Or have I completely misunderstood the original question?

Dave Lowry
30th September 2003, 21:52
Yes, Mr. Hartman is correct.
I responded initially to the question this morning without thinking it through. Still a bit fuzzy from the weekend. Left home Friday afternoon right after a terrific thunderstorm passed over, promptly to fly through it again, outpacing the front temporarily, only to have it catch up once more in central Ohio. Where I and others proposed to sleep in a cavernous echo chamber of an aikido dojo. Said dojo located in an industrial park less than fifty yards from multiple railroad tracks. Storm arrived just as we’d all settled into sleeping bags. Thunder is spectacularly loud. Loud enough to conceal the sound of the first of several regularly approaching freight trains on the aforementioned tracks, until they sounded their air horns at ear piercing length just as they came level to the site of the dojo. (If you’re thinking of the early morning scene from “My Cousin Vinny” you’ve got the situation fairly well pegged.)
Fearing that snoring would keep us all awake, I’d earlier suggested opening the big garage-type door at the front of the dojo to create a sort of white noise ambience. An inspired idea at the time; less so as the evening progressed, with storm and trains continuing at decibels most commonly associated with carnival midways or live-fire artillery exercises. Even less inspired about halfway through the Hour of the Ox, when an incredible blast of wind dislodged a brace of empty 55-gal. oil drums stacked on a pallet right by the door. Sending them rolling over the pavement, banging into dumpsters, parked cars, and objects identifiable only by their various percussive resonances. Until nearly dawn. That’s why I’m fuzzy. Or fuzzier than usual.

So let’s just say that sometime around the late Muromachi era, martial artists began to be attracted to training going on at the Hozo-in. Given Kakuzenbo In-ei’s dates (1521-1607) and the date of the founding of Hozoin ryu (ca. 1560), can we peg the moment in question to when? Eiroku era? Or, to put it in perspectives more comprehensible to students of history as it is now taught, sometime between the last Ice Age and the war in Vietnam.

Cordially,

Finny
1st October 2003, 08:26
Thanks guys,
Mr. Lowry stole the excuse I was going to use for my error "...still fuzzy .."

Mr Lowry - I had thought it must be a simple typo, thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,

shieldcaster
20th October 2004, 03:59
I just thought I'd drop a Q or two here and see if I can't get a little more info than I did on another thread. I was intersted specifically in finding some info on Kegon. I've Googled and found a little, but I was looking for a bit more than the Webster's definition. I was wondering if Mr. Lowry had a reference for the overview of Kegon he gane in his Hozoin article. Or a web address. Or an e-mail address. Or a phone number...I think you get the point.

I am very interested to learn more about this school. The general outlook that is expressed in the article seems pretty fitting for me personally. So, if it's not too much trouble, I'd like to add a little to my already completely insufficient level of understanding of Kegon.

Thanks in advance, ya'll.

Dave Lowry
21st October 2004, 17:31
Dear Mr. Shieldcaster,
I do not have any information about Kegon Buddhism that you would not be able to find on an internet foray. It would seem that being in Japan you might have some access to this and my only suggestion would be to investigate from that end.

Cordially,

Harry Cook
21st October 2004, 19:51
You may find the following works of interest re the Kegon school of Buddhism:-
1. E. Dale Saunders 'Buddhism in Japan' Tuttle 1976
2. R. Tsunoda, W. Theodore De Bary, D. Keene 'Sources of Japanese Tradition Vol. 1' Columbia University Press 1964
3. Wing Tsit Chan 'A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy' Princeton University Press 1969 (look under the Chinese name of the school 'Hua-yen' - 'Flowery Splendor')
Yours,
Harry Cook

shieldcaster
22nd October 2004, 01:05
Kool and the Gang, Dave and Harry. Thanks for the tips and references.
Dave: yes being in Japan would seem to help my research, but thus far everyone I've talked to (even Buddhist clergy here) either gives me the palms up answer, or says that they have heard of it and that it is not really a functional sect anymore. Looks like I will have to travel to Nara and get some info from the horses mouth, as it were.
Harry: great references. I'll try to track copies down for further reading.
Thank you both for your time.

hyaku
22nd October 2004, 03:10
Yes Nara is the place. I can post some details on Monday if its not too late.

shieldcaster
22nd October 2004, 03:40
It's never too late Hyaku. It would be greatly appreciated if you could do that.

Arigato gozaimasu. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

kinopah
29th October 2004, 02:25
Originally posted by Dave Lowry
Storm arrived just as we’d all settled into sleeping bags. Thunder is spectacularly loud.

hang on... so said thunder would have been the inevitable result of... AUTUMN LIGHTNING????

sorry for being so unbelievably cheesy. i found that way too amusing, i'm afraid...

:D

shieldcaster
4th November 2004, 04:22
I am going to Nara this weekend (Sunday). If anyone has any info about Todaiji or any point(s) of contact there regarding Kegon-shu, it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, I'm still new enough to this country to simply stumble in and play the barbaric gaijin part.

Thanks!

ChrisMoon
4th November 2004, 08:30
Hi,

I do not know much about Kegon but what I have been told is that it is not for the casual person. It is very intense and a time consuming study. I know an ordained Shingon priest and when he tried to describe it to me it almost hurt my head just contemplating it.

shieldcaster
4th November 2004, 10:41
Thanks a million, Chris. That is definitely the level that I'm looking for. However, I don't know exactly what it is that they believe. I certainly hope that I can get some info this weekend.

Thanks again.

shieldcaster
9th November 2004, 03:59
Well, Sunday's little adventure was confined to the realms of tourism. The closest I got to finding Kegon-shu at Todaiji was two nice postcards and a pretty cool T-shirt. Since it is dominately populated by shopkeepers, deer and high school kids on their school trip, I did not reach success in finding any representative of Kegon. (I will avoid any philosophical notions as to why this may be more difficult than I thought.)

I got the same answer from all of the shopkeepers and ticket booth personnel that I got from anyone up here (including clergy): a figurative pair of upturned hands and a slightly tilted head. It appears that this may now qualify as a sort of Easter Egg hunt.

Note: I am not complaining, only observing. I guess I can start by buying the Kegon-kyo in English off of Amazon, but I am not really looking for a DIY-shu. Any comments?

shieldcaster
9th November 2004, 04:33
Well, I guess it's all DIY...

shieldcaster
13th September 2005, 06:29
So it's been nearly a year and the only thing I've got is a marginal reading list (full of very thick books). I was wondering if anyone out there would have any adive from this point. Hyaku, I would greatly appreciate any info you may have...

hyaku
14th September 2005, 03:39
So it's been nearly a year and the only thing I've got is a marginal reading list (full of very thick books). I was wondering if anyone out there would have any adive from this point. Hyaku, I would greatly appreciate any info you may have...

Only that the precepts of Kegon shu seem to been followed by Musashi in recognizing two deities and two heavens. Kannon and Fudomyo I'll chase it up some more.

shieldcaster
14th September 2005, 03:49
Man, thanks a million.

It is just damn hard to find someone who may *represent* Kegon. A clergyman, etc. I know a lot about what the school believes--through books and such--but I'll be damned if I can get ahold of anyone who can help me beyond that.

Thanks, Hyaku.

roninseb
15th September 2005, 12:56
Hi there!

I saw the postings and if you have some questions on Kegon I will be glad to help you since this year on the way back from Yagyu village I stopped in Nara and was able to have interviews with 2 monks one at the Kofukuji for the Hosso-Shu and one at the Todai-Ji for the Kegon-shu. I was also able to receive the Shoten (Daily sutras) for each school and I am now sorting trough all the Daranis and sutras to see how different Nara Jidai Buddhism is from the later school. So far I can see that even if there was different schools most of them shared the Kegon-Kyo (Avatamsaka Sutra/Flower ornement sutra) and that most openeings and closings goe in the same way the main difference would be in the daily practices and philosophy but the rituals are mainly the same. From what I can see in Japan is that Nara Buddhism is very small and there is not many monks in each school and funny enough most monks came from other schools prior to switching to Kegon, Hosso or Ritsu. Also the Kegon-Kyo is a study sutra wich is not recited in its full lengths since it is soooo long. They only recite parts of it depending on the occasion purpose etc......

I hope this bit of info helped feel free to ask any other questions

Gassho

shieldcaster
16th September 2005, 01:06
Holy cow, man! That is great. Glad you have succeeded where I seem to have not. I would be very interested in getting any and all info I can about Kegon-shu--practically and scholastically.

Is there currently a way to study Kegon-shu on a regular basis? Are there monks outside Nara?

Jeeze, man, my questions are many and varied, so I guess I'll start there.

Thanks a lot!

roninseb
16th September 2005, 02:24
Ok let me start by just asking a question.

If there is not much info on Kegon-Shu. Why are you so attracted by it??? Because of Hozoin-Ryu?????

I am very sorry if I sounded arrogant but I wanted to make you think a bit about your choice.

If you want to study Buddhism and especially Kegon-Shu I strongly suggest trying to Learn Tendai-Shu. Why am I saying this???? Even if the Tendai sect is often called the Tendai lotus school in regards to the Hokke Kyo/Lotus Sutra they also study and preach many parts if not all the Kegon-Kyo/Sutra. You have to remember that Kegon-Shu is a very old school that also as very strong enphasis on the Vinaya/Precepts wich means no wife no sex no this no that etc... etc..... and morever all ceremony are for monks and very similar to Tendai except for the Shomyo/Type of Gregorian chant wich is very rythmic and still has its Chinese taste even today. Also it is even hard to find a Gongyo/Daily sutra and practice book from the kegon school today compared to all the other school where you can purchase Gongyo books and study guides for lay people.

So to me it does not really matter what you will study since I was ordained in the Rinzai-Shu but also study and practice Tendai because of its roots in the Mikkyo and links to the Kegon sutra.

So if you want we can exchange emails and I will give you a list of material I have on Kegon (Books,Gongyo set and CD) and if you need guide you in Japan.

Gassho,

shieldcaster
16th September 2005, 04:55
Heh. No arrogance detected, my friend. Very legitimate questions. And comments.

I am not interested in Hozoinryu in the least. I am actually a student of Kashima Shinryu, and only really have academic interest outside that as far as budo goes. The information that I have managed to run down regarding Kegon-shu and Huayen has been, as I said, meager. Fortunately, that which I have found seems to be more or less outlines on Kegon/Huayen modes of thought and basic...perceptions/world views. These seem to be very interesting to me. I am more than just a little bit curious as to the hows, whys and hithertofores of Kegon as a practice, as a belief, as a mindset, etc. I wouldn't call myself a Buddhist scholar by any means, but I am reasonably widely read.

Stating that the information on Kegon is very limited (literarily) is true, but also a bit misleading as to what I am trying to find. I was looking for more than just some books written by scholars. I was looking for someone who was actually involved with Kegon-shu. This, it seems, you have done.

Well, my wife and son would be a little disheartened by me taking off and becoming a monk, so I guess that would be out right off. Although certain levels of devotion would be preferable--assuming what I have read thus far is an actuality--that particular path is not available to me at the moment.

I have studied some non-eastern philosophy that seemed to have some serious parallels to Kegon thought. But how can I really know without seeing for myself?

I am an obviously naive person when it comes to this sort of thing, so any advice or information is terribly welcome. I do appreciate what you have done for me so far. And look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

It is not so much the mikkyo that is attractive about Kegon--hell I don't even know if there is mikkyo in Kegon. I have spoken to a Shingon-shu clergyman here in Ishikawa and he said that he would be more than happy to help me become more involved with his particular school. But, yet again, as interesting as Shingon-shu is (and it is), it seems to take a bit different path. From what I've seen in Tendai-shu, it is the same. But, yet again, I am naive...

roninseb
16th September 2005, 05:30
As far as what you said about Shingon you are totally correct they are way different than the Kegon school and Tendai. But when it comes to Tendai I will have to elaborate a bit more. As you might know Tendai is a bit of a mix of everything Mikkyo, Kegon, Pure land and even Zen in some aspects. So depending on who you will study Tendai with you will feel the various ascendency they are choosing. Sure most of the rituals come from the mikkyo school but when it comes to philosophy they get most of their stuff from the Kegon kyo. We also should never forget that when Saicho sent Ennin back to China to get the missing parts of Mikkyo they could not get from Kukai Ennin was not able to go to Tendai San (Tientai Shan) and was told by some Korean monks living in China that he should go to Godai San (Wutai Shan) to get mikkyo and little did he know that Wutaishan was the most famous study of the Kegon sutra in China so we can say that the Tendai Clergy in Japan already knew of the Kegon sutra and I am sure were studying it on a personal basis but when Ennin came back it was surely incorporated in their study.

Now just to make you drool a bit ;) I am listening to a CD of a Kegon Shomyo recording that was made a the Todaiji great stuffff!

So maybe I guess our conversation is getting a bit out of the Budo world so if you wish please email me at gishin@sympatico.ca and I will be glad to give acces to my notes material and sources on were to get stuff.

Gassho

Jim Wilson
18th September 2005, 00:45
Good Friends:

For those interested in the Kegon tradition, Kegon Shu, here are a few recommendations. The Kegon tradition is the Japanese name for the Chinese Hua Yen, which is based on the Flower Ornament Scripture/Avatamsaka Sutra. Thomas Cleary's "Entry into the Inconceivable" is an excellent introduction to the theoretical basis of this tradition.

Cleary has also translated the entire Flower Ornament Scripture. This is a huge work; originally published in 3-volumes, but now available in a single volume from Shambhala. It's not an easy read. I recommend that if you want to get a feeling for why East Asian Buddhism has found it inspiring that you read the closing verses of the last chapter. They are awesomely beautiful and chanted in many Buddhist Temples, particularly Kegon tradition.

The two-volume history of Buddhism in Japan by the Matsunagas has a good chapter on Kegon and its founding. In general, this is the best overview of Japanese Buddhism I have found.

I am not aware of any Kegon presence in the west at this time. Kegon was one of the six original Nara traditions and has been in Japan for a long time; but was eclipsed by the establishment of Tendai and Shingon in the 800's. Still, it is an active tradition in Japan.

Tendai Buddhism in Japan is based on Chinese T'ien T'ai, founded by Saicho in the 800's. Saicho incorporated into the general T'ien T'ai framework esoteric practices which were not a part of Chinese T'ien T'ai. Still, the basic view is T'ien T'ai. It is the most influential Japanese Buddhist tradition because in the 1200's, all the founders of the Kamakura reform were ex-Tendai monks; including Dogen, Eisai, Honen, Shinran, and Nichiren. So understanding the basics of Tendai is essential for understanding Japanese Buddhism.

Hope this is of some assistance.

roninseb
18th September 2005, 02:47
Mr. Wilson Please explain more clearly.

From what I was told and also what I was lead to believe is that indeed the teaching's of Chi-I in China did not have the presence of Mikkyo but later when Shingon got popular in China it was at that time that the Tendai clergy in China adopted the esoterical practices from the Shingon school. So historically Tendai had Mikkyo in it much before Saicho wen to Japan so your statement about Saicho being the one to put the Mikkyo in Tendai is not entirely correct. Also Saicho was not in China long enough to learn Mikkyo fully so this is why Ennin was sent later to pick up some of the missing pieces. Today Kegon is alive in Japan but on a very small scale. What also is to be noted is that most school will study the Kegon-Kyo including the ShugenDo school under the form of the Shugen-Seppo. We should also note that it was under Ennin that the Tendai school really took a Mikkyo turn. Also the Tendai school was anyhow introduced at first by Ganjin even if he was from the Ritsu school he was a noted Tendai teacher in China and Japan.


Gassho,

Jim Wilson
18th September 2005, 05:13
Sebastien:

I don't think we disagree. The history of T'ien T'ai/Tendai is fairly complex. Here's my understanding:

Ganjin brought the teachings of T'ien T'ai to Japan, and introduced them to Saicho; but Ganjin did not form an independent Tendai School. I suspect he wasn't interested in that. It was only after Saicho visited China and returned to Japan that Tendai was established as a separate tradition in Japan. Furthermore, Saicho promulgated the idea of a separate precepts platform on Mt. Hiei. This was accomplished shortly after Saicho died and allowed for the Tendai Shu to establish itself as a politically distinct entity from the previous Nara traditions.

My understanding of Saicho's studies in China are that he received authorizations in T'ien T'ai, Esoteric traditions involving two mandalas, and two Zen traditions (the Northern and Oxhead) lineages. Now I'm not sure how the Chinese viewed these; as to whether or not they all were a part of the T'ien T'ai umbrella. Classically, Chih I emphasized the Lotus Sutra, an exoteric teaching. But that does not necessarily exclude an interest in esoteric traditions. So you may be right about esoteric practices within T'ien T'ai in China. But I would still say that Saicho and the subsequent Head Priests at Enryakuji emphasized Mikkyo in a way that made it more central to Tendai than it was for T'ien T'ai in China.

You're right about most traditions in Japan studying the Kegon Kyo; it's a central Mahayana work and its influence is very broad, extending beyond the Kegon Shu.

All of this is far from the topic of Budo; but it helps to know the overall history of spirituality in Japan when encountering the particular Budo traditions.

Thanks for your clarifications.

Best wishes

roninseb
18th September 2005, 06:41
Thanks for the reply!

So from what we both commonly understand here is a little diagram.

Chi I's Tendai in China= Not much Mikkyo
Post Chi I= Mikkyo got in From Shingon

Ganjin goes to Japan= Brings Ritsu and some basic Tendai without Mikkyo or maybe Just a sprinkle so that the Japanese went later in China to get it.

Kukai and Saicho go to China= Kukai was all about Mikkyo Saicho was all about Tendai but was not able to get all he wanted from his trip.

Gishin sends Ennin in China: Ennin got some more Mikkyo practices Text etc... Now upon his return Tendai was now much more inlfuenced by Mikkyo than before in Japan.

By the way do you have Inagaki sensei's Dictionary of Buddhism? The reason I am saying this is because I got the info in this dictionary and also in the Travel records of Ennin in Tang China that altough Saicho went for Mikkyo it was actually Ennin who was able to fully formulate the Tendai Mikkyo recipe in Japan. If you have more info ideas input please feel free to write to me by emails since I think that we are getting too much out of the Budo ball park. I would be happy to exchange with you since it is so rare to find someone who shares the same passion in Buddhist history.

Truly yours.