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RobertW
30th September 2003, 16:45
We practice maezato no nunchaku in our system.
Aie there more ryukyu kobudo nunchaku katas? I know therer are alot forms for nunchaku, some form okinawa kobudo or shorin ryu kobudo, I'm wondering from ryukyus kobudo...

Sidarta
30th September 2003, 20:42
Robert,

There sure are other kata. Anyway the rest of your question kinda confused me. When you mention Ryukyu, Okinawa and Shorin are you refering to the geographic sites? Or particular schools or organizations? In case it is a matter of geography wouldn't all of the above be from Ryu Kyu anyway?

cheers,

RobertW
30th September 2003, 21:47
What I amgetting at I suppose is it seems to me that Rykyu Kobudo would technically take up all of the forms from the ryukyu archipelago, although some call their systems shorin ryu okinawa etc. I guess I am getting at from the system of that name (ryukyu kobudo) more than anything...

Shikiyanaka
30th September 2003, 22:13
@Robert -

on the Website of Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai there are mentioned three Nunchaku Kata:

o Maezato no Nunchaku 前里のヌンチャク
o Akamine no Nunchaku 赤嶺のヌンチャク
o Sanbon Nunchaku 三本ヌンチャク

As far as I have heard, Sanbon Nunchaku is done with Sansetsukon 三節棍. The Maezato and Sanbon Kata seems to have been developed by Taira, Akamine no Nunchaku seems to have been traditioned by Akamine Eisuke, the late Nidai Kaichô (second president) of the RKHS.

Apart from the RKHS, I have heard that several styles call their Kobudo "Ryukyu Kobudo," for example Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, but I am not sure.

Maybe this is due to their systems roots leading back to times of Ryukyu Kingdom, which was abolished in 1879 or so. All Kobudo implements with old Kata - Bo (and Eiku), Tunfa and Sai - can be traced back to Ryukyu Kingdom times. Other Kobudo implements like nunchaku, timbei or surujin, were only developed in terms of Kata in Okinawa-ken times (as far as I know).

As Okinawans themselves differenciate between certain geographic locations within Ryukyu island chain, this seems to be more a historio-cultural usage of the word (rather than geographical).

Shikiyanaka
30th September 2003, 22:16
I forgot:

apart from that, it is necessary to make clear what kind of Kobudo is meant in comparison to Nihon Kobudo.

TomMarker
2nd October 2003, 22:13
There is a nunchaku kata demonstrated in the Sakagami Ryusho book "Nunchaku and Sai." Is anyone familiar with this kata, and it's name? If I recall from my notes, he only mentions that he learned it from Taira Shinken.

How a Tang Soo Do guy like myself was taught this form and started practicing it... who knows? :)

Shikiyanaka
3rd October 2003, 01:05
I have copies of a Ryusho Sakagami book called "Ryukyu Kobudo ... Basic exercises...," I don't have them here. But he doesn't give a name, just calls it "basic exercises." Inoue Motokatsu in "Ryukyu Kobudo Chukan" (1974) calls it Nunchaku Renshû Kata... Seems like it is Maezato no Nunchaku !?!?!?

TomMarker
3rd October 2003, 04:55
If it would help, i can try to scan the first couple movements from the book.

I learned it from an Isshin-ryu practicioner who simply called it "Sakagami." Not a standard Isshin-ryu form, I thought it was odd, until I met another isshin-ryu person who did the same form and called it the same thing.

I just want to make sure I give credit where credit is due :)

Shikiyanaka
3rd October 2003, 13:18
i can try to scan the first couple movements from the book.

That would be a good idea.

Shito Ryu Itosu-ha Kobudo curriculum seems to call the kata "Sakagami no nunchaku" 1 and 2 (sho and dai). I think I remember, that Sakagami stated, that there was no name for the kata... So the name must given posthumous.
Also, Inoue has the nunchaku renshu kata 1 and 2 (sho and dai) in his books.

Both Sakagami and Inoue were Ryukyu Kobudo students of Taira.

Maybe a scan will help.:rolleyes:

dsomers
3rd October 2003, 18:38
I was told the 1 in his Sai , & Nunchaku book looks to be a combonation of Maezato , & Akamine no Nunchaku .

David

TomMarker
3rd October 2003, 18:40
Thanks for the info, and I apologize for slightly hijacking the thread. I'll see if I can post a few images this weekend. The book's pictures are in a funky style, not the traditional table of images.

TomMarker
6th October 2003, 23:24
http://wackett.enc.org/~tmarker/1.jpg
http://wackett.enc.org/~tmarker/2.jpg

as i said, the book isn't set up well for scanning individual techniques...

Shikiyanaka
7th October 2003, 12:22
Quote from:

Sakagami Ryusho: Ancient Martial Arts of the Ryûkyû Islands. Series 1. He Basic Formal Exercise of Nunchaku, Tokaido Co. Ltd., Tokyo 1969 or 1970 (1st edition).


"Up to the present, Nunchaku has no formal exercise, but here I have arranged the basic formal exercise in Nunchaku techniques from basic movements handed down from our teacher, Shinken Taira."

Also in the above quoted book the movements are a little bit different than in the scans, this would mean that the formal exercises in both his Nunchaku books are not Maezato no Nunchaku or Akamine no Nunchaku, also they maybe look similar.

(I can't remember the moves of Maezato no Nunchaku, that's why I can't say for sure: Nunchaku are "forbidden objects" [not weapons] in Germany. When I asked the federal police office they told me, that there is no chance to legally buy, produce, possess ... Nunchaku in Germany in any case... and most recently the corresponding laws were even strengthened.)

Taira is said to have put together the basic techniques of Nunchaku, Surujin, Tekko and Tinbe (Rochin) to formal Kata. Those basics he learned from Kanegawa no Gibu, his alleged grandfather. When Taira constructed the Kata is not for sure.

It would be best to look for Shito-ryu Itosukai practitioners, and check how their Nunchaku kata are called and if these two are the ones which are (sometimes?) called Sakagami no Nunchaku 1 and 2.

I wonder why Inoue did call his Nunchaku Kata "Nunchaku Renshû Kata 1 and 2", because his 3 volume edition "Ryûkyû Kobudô" is from 1974 and was produced under supervision not only of the mainland Sô-honbu of Inoue, but also of the Sô-honbu in Okinawa. :rolleyes:

As Taira died in 1970, this is raising the question, if the name Maezato no Nunchaku was given posthumous or if others - just like Sakagami -


"arranged the basic formal exercise in Nunchaku techniques from basic movements handed down from [...] Shinken Taira"?

Hank Irwin
7th October 2003, 14:42
Most of the 'chaku kata I have seen from the Matayoshi, Akamine, & Taira Clan seemed slow and plodding. I haven't seen very many that do 'chaku well, although I am sure there are. IMO think it is one of the most difficult weapons to learn proficiently. On the other hand, I have seen(and do) Matsumura nanchaku done many times and it is a different animal all together. The most impressive displays of 'chaku kata I have ever seen and witnessed to came from Kyoshi Roy Osborne of Okinawa Seito Shorinji-ryu. He learned kobudo from Hohan Soken O'Sensei, Fusei Kise Sensei, and others. But the kobudo he learned from SokenSama is scarey.
I have some video of him doing double 'chaku kata, blindfolded, that I will ask him if it is ok to post. It is eyecatching to say the least. For those of you seeking to study 'chaku, be patient. It takes many, many years to obtain skill. Anybody can spin them around and make it "look" good. One thing you will not find, and that is, a lot of kata for this weapon. Other weapons yes, not 'chaku so much.:D

Shikiyanaka
7th October 2003, 16:01
I have some video of him doing double 'chaku kata, blindfolded, that I will ask him if it is ok to post.

That would be good!!! :cool:

Sidarta
7th October 2003, 20:19
Originally posted by TomMarker
http://wackett.enc.org/~tmarker/1.jpg
http://wackett.enc.org/~tmarker/2.jpg

as i said, the book isn't set up well for scanning individual techniques...

Despite a couple different details from the version I have been taught, the kata presented in the scanned pages apparently is the beggining of Maezato no Nunchaku. Maybe some other kata has a similar beggining but I do not know. Do you guys?

dsomers
8th October 2003, 04:34
The kata in that book starts out doing Maezato No Nunchaku , then goes into Akamine No Nunchaku . I have the other one , as well , I think the other one might be one that Sakagami put together , or perhaps one Inoue designed .

David

Shikiyanaka
8th October 2003, 14:24
In the second book (the English/Japanese one) Sakagami clearly states that he has "arranged the basic formal exercise in Nunchaku techniques from basic movements handed down" from his teacher Shinken Taira. I think I remember that this is written on the first page.

Inoue in Ryukyu Kobudo Jôkan (1974) gives some Kobudo Masters with their respective Kata... Under Shinken Taira are Kongo no Kon, Jigen no Sai, and Maezato no Tekko. As he has the Nunchaku Renshu Kata 1 and 2 in his 3 Volumes, this could mean that he also did not learn a finished Nunchaku Kata from Taira... but also just the basics, which were put in some Sequence:

- Yoi - kamae: Nunchaku horizontally held up with both hands...
- Hon Kamae
- Gyaku Te Uchi no Kamae

And thats how they all begin.

And always the Hon Kamae - Gyaku Te Uchi no Kamae combination.

I may check if Sakagami's versions and Inoue's versions are the same... but I don't think so.

Jussi Häkkinen
15th October 2003, 04:42
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
Nunchaku are "forbidden objects" [not weapons] in Germany. When I asked the federal police office they told me, that there is no chance to legally buy, produce, possess ... Nunchaku in Germany in any case...

Now, this is an interesting thing. I know several kobudo schools in Germany that have nunchaku in their curriculum and that are teaching it.

You're sure that the law is not a regional thing there?

Shikiyanaka
15th October 2003, 07:52
I know several kobudo schools in Germany that have nunchaku in their curriculum and that are teaching it.

Jussi, hahaha, let them Cowboys go ahead and state oficcially what kind of Nunchaku they train, when and were. :cool:

They maybe use those plastic sport-nunchaku, or made of rope or something else... the connection at the legal sport nunchaku is done in a way that they break if to much force is applied... so that it is not possible to use it as a lever to choke or break bones or whatever...

Normal nunchaku - those of Shureido for example - are forbidden; in whole Germany... and there is no "maybe". You do not even have the right to hang them on the wall in your living room. That is the fact. Even the sport nunchaku are only certified for certrain federal states.

The difference between a "forbidden object" and a weapon is, that in case of a weapon there is usually a certain official paper available to legalize the possession of it through some kind of training and testing. In the case of the "forbidden object" this is not the case.

You may ask those guys from Germany if they would state here what they do, which Nunchaku they use, where they train (outside? a park? in the cellar) and also if they know about the facts of that law.

I know that the one or the other has Nunchaku. I trained in my garden with one a friend brought with him in August this year; and visiting a course a friend of mine from Holland brought one with him and of course a tried. I trained with real nunchaku for some years 20 years ago... it is not really something new to me... or something that makes a nunchaku-gollum out of me...

It is simply not legal. ;)