sports judo vs. "traditional" judo

[Legend]

A quick question. I've heard from some corners that a lot of judo dojos nowadyas in the US (but not all, of course) focus a great deal on the competition aspect of Judo and often times neglect the more "traditional" aspects of Judo training. Could someone tell me if this is true and if so, what exactly does that mean? What aspects are left out? And how would one tell which type of Judo dojo a particular school is when you go visit a school to check it out? Thanks.

[MarkF]

Ask. Instructors are usually very honest about what they offer. For what it's worth, in recent years, most shiai I've attended have kata competition now so you could call that a return to "tradition." Then again, competition has always been a part of Kodokan Judo.

With the first well-known judo shiai taking place in 1895 (kano-ha jiu-do v. some of the major jujutsu-ryu of the day), you could say shiai is very traditional. I've also found self-defense, or "combat-related" judo just happens along the way even in those which are purely sporting clubs.

But like I said, Watch, even participate in a trial class, but then ask.


Mark

[Bull_in_chinash]

"Kata is good. but not for judo."

-Hayward Nishioka

[boku_wa]

Originally posted by MarkF
Ask. Instructors are usually very honest about what they offer.

Asking only yields the correct answers if the people being asked know what they are talking about. Case in point, some clubs may believe that they are practicing "traditional" judo when in fact they are not. Other clubs may not even be aware of the distinction between "traditional" and "sports" and will give you a "what wagon did you fall off" look.

Case in point, we had an observer in class a few months back. Later, he asked the sensei a question to which the sensei gave a perturbed look. After the observer left, the sensei revealed that the observer had asked him what style of judo we were practicing. The sensei said firmly there was only one style of judo...Kodokan Judo.

[Starkjudo]

Asking will do you a fair amount of good in Atlanta, which is where George Allen is located. Bob Byrd's Atlanta Judo Academy in particular does a good bit of competition Judo, but I believe they have programs for recreational players as well. I think asking if they are "recreational vs. competitive" will get you a little further than asking if they are "traditional vs. sport."

Rob Thornton

[Legend]

Thanks for your replies. I am actually thinking of relocating to L.A. so the Atlanta information will not pertain to me for much longer.

[jeffbruner]

Legend, I am in the LA area and can help you find a dojo that will suit your needs.

However, I am not sure what you exactly mean by "traditional" aspects of Judo as opposed to competitive aspects.

In general I can tell you that Judo is alive and strong in LA. Most of the senseis have a strong sense of tradition (and they are adamant about preserving it), yet there is a strong competitive aspect. As Mark noted, competition is in no way anti-traditionalist.

As for Rob's note about recreation vs competition, in most of the dojos here you are free to choose how competitive you wish to be. I, for one, find competiton to be recreational, so I guess I get two ways for the price of one.

Also Judo in LA is CHEAP. Many of the best dojos are associated with Japanese Cultural Centers and are basically non-profit clubs. Fees can start at a rediculously low 5.00 per month, but you may be expected to help with some fund raising carnivals etc.

If you want info on some specifc clubs, feel free to contact me offline. I think you can get my email from my profile here.

Good luck.

[jeffbruner]

Also for a pretty complete list of LA dojos and to see some of the goings-on-about-town, check out the website for the local Yudanshakai, Nanka.

http://www.usajudo.com/

[Legend]

Thanks Jeff. I gess what I was referring to was that I've heard once upon a time on this forum that there were dojos where because the emphasis was on training for competitions, certain katas and SD techniques were being left out or neglected in the training curriculum. I could be wrong about this cause the I remember the thread being a couple of years old. Anyway, I appreciate the info, and once I figure out where I'll end up I can figure out better where to train.

[PeteBoyes]

Legend, there's certainly clubs like that in my neck of the woods - but they're a long way from you, and even further when you move to the West coast..

One of the Juniors at our club is an accomplished champion and often travels to different clubs to get a variety of opponents. His parents took him to a particular club locally and after one randori the lad was asked to leave the mat by the 'sensei'.

The reasons were that they don't actually throw at that club, just turn in for the throw. Similarly, with newaza (groundwork) they teach armlocks and strangles, but never apply them. It calls to mind something from my childhood (many many years ago!) where someone would come up to you and flick their hand towards your face while saying "I could have killed you then!" :D

Finding a 'complete' club which has champions as well as technicians is very rare. Good luck in your search.

[jeffbruner]

Legend: to get a little more specific, in the LA area I would say the Yudanshkai (Nanka) places a relatively high value on kata, although there is still plenty of "sport judo" as well.

They way they handle it here is to designate certain dojos as able to give a "kata certificate," certifying your participation in various kata clinics. These are required for advancement in grade. They also start kata with the young players as well.

If you desire to study kata, including the self defense katas, this option is certainly available, but it is somewhat left to the individual player to seek the instruction on their own timetable.

The system is also very open, so if you are mainly a member of one of the non-kata dojos, you are always welcome to participate in kata clinics and regular classes at the other dojos.

As for studying Judo STRICKLY as a method of self defense, I would say that Judo is meant to be much more than that. It is meant to be a way of life. The "traditionalist" method of instruction should include all facets of the art.

True, most dojos here do not cover atemi (strikes) and other non-randori waza in the normal course of instruction, but you can find these taught at some of the kata clinics if you search it out.

If self defnese is your main interest and focus, then I would suggest a mixed martial arts environment that specializes mainly in self defense and the mental conditioning necessary for survival.

Good luck, and again if I can be of help in LA please don not hesitate to email me off line for specific info on the dojos here.

[Eric Baluja]

Originally posted by Bull_in_chinash
"Kata is good. but not for judo."

-Hayward Nishioka Yeah, it's a damn shame that Kano saddled us with that crap. What a dope.

:rolleyes:

[Bull_in_chinash]

Of course you know better than Hayward...

:rolleyes:

[Eric Baluja]

Originally posted by Bull_in_chinash
Of course you know better than Hayward...

:rolleyes: Not me,...but maybe, just maybe, Kano Jigoro did.

[Jay Vail]

Yeah, it's a damn shame that Kano saddled us with that crap. What a dope

With all due respect, Eric, kata is ESSENTIAL. You cannot be a truly rounded martial artist without it. By kata, I do not mean the one person stuff in karate, but the two person forms in judo/jujutsu. The kata teach drill, which most judo competitors don't really seem to get enough of because all they want to do is spare so their technique is not as good as it could be. Also, the self defense/combat techniques are preserved in the kata, and simply by practicing them you can become effective enough to defend yourself on the street. I have known several people who had defended themselves using techniques from kata which they never practiced in randori/shiai. One of them took on two knife attackers this summer and put them both in the hospital.

[Eric Baluja]

Sorry for the confusion. In using the 'roll-eyes' smilie I was trying to denote sarcasm. Anyway, as should have been more obvious from my 2nd post, I think if the founder of judo thought kata was important enough to put it in, it's incumbent upon those who claim to study Kodokan judo to learn them inside and out, not just go through the motions. Don't like it? Make up your own martial art, or at least don't call what you're doing Kodokan judo. Harumph. :mst:

Cranky young/old man,

[Elliot Harris]

Being as I have never trained in LA I couldn’t speak to the specifics of the Nanka Yudanshakai and what kind of judo is typically trained there, and I think Jeff will obviously be an invaluable source for specifics.

Personally, and I am particularly biased, I think judo is a superb martial art for sport, self defense, recreation and fitness, and eventually, if you stick with it, you will probably start to get something out of it spiritually and philosophically. You could do some searches here on “Judo and Aikido” and others to realize just how well judo prepares you mentally for a combative situation. What is often lacking in judo training is specific and regular “self defense” – goshin jitsu or other kata (other than the randori-no-kata) – training as part of class. What the kata do is make much of what we do normally a lot cleaner as it would be applied in an actual combative situation; never the less, I think judo training in most respects will still prepare you well from the stand point of mental drive, feel, calm under pressure, just plain old toughness – unfourtunately, for the most part, if you really want to clean up your technique for self defense, you will have to look elsewhere unless you get lucky with a dojo that regularly practices the kata. Naturally, if you can find a dojo that trains these applications regularly, you have the complete package and are truly blessed. I have never trained Shodokan (Tomiki) aikido, but maybe cross training in a highly complimentary style of aikido will give you what you want.

Just a side note: personally I classify a -

Sport/Competition dojo, as a dojo where in the course of normal training/randori the action will stop because “you can’t do that in competition,” or koka/yuko is acceptable and maybe even preached as a preferred strategy in competition, and tokui waza is unnaturally emphasized (probably too hard to differentiate this from a balanced/normal emphasis for the average outsider). Where “turning out” of falls may be emphasized. Every one trains hard and is sweating profusely.

A recreational/traditional dojo, as a dojo where no one stops training to say, “You can’t do that in competition” (unless of course they are specifically training for a traditional annual type competion; ie. this does not happen all the time all year around). Where you may see unorthodox things happen, but always in a controlled and safe manner between consenting judoka. Where ippon and wazari quality technique is emphasized. Where tokui waza is kept in balance with a well-rounded curriculum. No one “turns out” of falls. Everyone trains hard and is sweating profusely. Ideally (and rarely), you will also see kata training somewhat regularly for purposes other than promotion (although, I have honestly seen this only twice – at the Colombia University judo club where they practiced randori-no-kata fairly regularly, and now at a dojo in Argentina where they start every class with 2 or 3 techniques and/or variations from the kodokan goshi-jitsu syllabus – I think Mark does this as well at his dojo).

[Jack B]

"Kata is good. but not for judo."
- Hayward Nisihoka
I think Nishioka sensei is saying that Judo is an applied art and must be learned from randori. Draeger sensei promoted the view that Kata is the center of Judo, not a separate pursuit off to the side. He noted that people were ignoring kata and missing the fundamentals that it transmits. This is correct. However, kata itself is informed by the randori experience of the founder. Kata without randori would be an empty shell, just as randori without kata can be sloppy and brutal. The proper Venn diagram for Judo should be a large circle of randori, with a circle of shiai within it but off to the side, and a central circle of kata, which has in its deep center a kernel of randori.

[jeffbruner]

I don't remember the exact percentage (and I'm sure Mark F can correct me on this....) but even Kano Shihan said that kata should be only about 25% (or maybe even less..) of practice.

Just to keep all this in perspective......

[Starkjudo]

If kata is supposed to be 25%, then it is always given short shrift. I'd argue most judo dojo don't do more than 15% of kata, based on average practice time. This is based on the dojos i've seen or talked to; your mileage may vary.

Rob Thornton

[Elliot Harris]

Personally I thought it was 20%. But even at 15% or 25%, the only way most could say they accomplish this is if they say uchi komi practice is a form of kata. I don’t think that’s what we are discussing here when we say we are practicing kata. If we say the kata we are referring to is specifically the Randori no Kata and up, while I am sure some dojos practice these regularly, most do not practice them hardly at all.

The question I have is: is uchi-komi what Kano and/or Draeger had in mind when he/they said this (15%, 20%, 25%, whatever, of training time spent on kata)?

[Starkjudo]

Whenever I say kata, i'm always referring to the Randori No Kata. I would not consider uchi komi to be a part of that, but then, we don't do uchi komi anyway. (please, not arguments for or against uchi komi today - that's too tedious a debate.)
My own guess would be that when Kano or Draeger referred to kata, they meant the formal techniques.

Rob Thornton

[Jack B]

I would say so. And I think in most dojos the Kata practice is more like 2% in a good year, unless you've got people getting ready for dan tests or a kata tournament.

[cary]

Originally posted by Jack B
I would say so. And I think in most dojos the Kata practice is more like 2% in a good year, unless you've got people getting ready for dan tests or a kata tournament.

In Draeger's book, Judo - Formal Techniques, he states that the recommended practice of judo should be: randori 75-80%, kata 15-20%, shiai 3-5%. Unfortunately, it seems to me that most dojos put kata in the 3-5% category, with a number holding steady at 0%.

[cary]

Originally posted by Elliot Harris

The question I have is: is uchi-komi what Kano and/or Draeger had in mind when he/they said this (15%, 20%, 25%, whatever, of training time spent on kata)? [/B]

Draeger cites three methods of practicing kata: 1) the traditional accepted Kodokan patterns, 2) private variation patterns, and 3) interpreted patterns. He does say that uchikomi can be considered an example of interpreted patterns (page 417), but they must contain the characteristics and qualities of kata: prearrangement, ideal conditions of resistance or nonresistance, symmetry, and series arrangement.

My impression is that most dojos practice uchikomi in a manner with characteristics and qualities more similar to randori (particularly in relation to entry and application) than kata.

[Elliot Harris]

My impression is that most dojos practice uchikomi in a manner with characteristics and qualities more similar to randori (particularly in relation to entry and application) than kata.
Cary,

I think I know where you are going with this, but please elaborate.

[MarkF]

I've checked out all US National shiai results for the last twelve months (there are a lot of them, as each of the three judo sanctioning bodies have their own nationals and for all ages which triples some of them) and each one has had kata competition. The Jr. Olympics had kata, etc. Anyway, this is far different than when I played on the competetive circuit, though we probably practiced more kata then than do dojo now. The world Championships has a kata competition and there are still many kata coaches and champions of kata around to know it certainly is a part of Kodokan Judo.

The problem here, though is the limited kata being performed. Most kata teams do nage no kata and katame no kata, while some do goshin jutsu (though I'm not sure this is really a kata, I think of it as an unfinished system) and fewer still, kime no kata, but I've yet to see any superior kata in these tournaments. Also, they are usually held in the early morning hours of the first day of a two day national.

I'm hoping it is a sign of things to come, but I also don't fret about the "sport of judo" either. Shiai has almost always been a part of Kodokan Judo. Most koryu jujutsu schools in the past had forms of taryu jiai as well, Kodokan Shiai was to be the polite version.

BTW: As to what Hayward Nishioka said, I think he is misunderstood because he doesn't finish his thoughts all that often. He's really a friendly, decent man and is, and was, a damned good judoka. A lot of judo players say or believe the same thing, and most of them back up what they. Vince Tamura competed into his seventies, retaining the National Masters title for some 17 years. He quit, he said, because "there is no competition."

Mark

[signaljammer]

The recreational judo club I started at is at a community college, and the first semester was mandatory judo/self defense focusing on judo and ww2 combatives for unarmed self defense. The Advanced class focused on recreational/sport judo, and was held directly after the beginners class, so that good beginners could stay late, and interested advanced members could come in early and practice/help out.

I liked that approach :)

[cary]

Originally posted by Elliot Harris
Cary,

I think I know where you are going with this, but please elaborate.

My point is that most uchikomi seems to be throws commonly used in randori or shiai with the entry moving forward or back in a manner similar to the movement in randori. They are not typically performed with the tsugi ashi steps seen in nage-no-kata. I have never seen seoi nage, for example, performed against an overhand strike during uchikomi practice. The uchikomi I have seen is designed to be akin to throwing practice (without the final execution) with the goal of simulating randori practice more so than kata practice.

[Elliot Harris]

Cary,

That clears it up, thanks. And, I agree. Althought, I think once the kata have been learned formally, one could practice/experiment with variations whose practice could appear more akin to uchi komi (with the exception that the entries would be off strikes or otherwise goshin jitsu related) than ritualized kata as normally seen.

[Starkjudo]

My favorite is high speed nage no kata for an hour - see how many times you and your partner can go through it both as uke and tori.

[MarkF]

If you can do it three times, you've just won my deep admiration. That, of course, includes each side by each person with the formalities and such.

In the old days, that was punishment, doing the full nage no kata three times each. Ninety hard falls for each of you.


Mark

[Starkjudo]

We managed to make it through five times each in about 40 minutes a few months ago. That includes both sides, but minus the bowing. I was pretty happy with that. It takes a really good partner with a great deal of trust to do it - i've only got one that I trust to go that far with me in class.

[Judokax8]

Some years ago my partner and I attended judo camp. One of the things we did was get certified as Nage-No-Kata Instructors. Kata training was 3 hours a day, each day. By the end of the week they put us on the mat and said go for it. We did Nage, they watched and critiqued, we did Nage again and again until we did it about 5 maybe 6 times in a 3 hour period. My legs were shaking from getting up and down, my hands tingled from the falls, but I was really to numb to be in pain, that came the next day. When people say Kata is easy, I tell them they know not of what they speak.

Peace
Dennis

[Starkjudo]

I absolutely agree Dennis. Nage no Kata - of for that matter, Goshin Jitsu or done right, even katame no kata - can bust your butt. But Nage in particular is brutal.

Rob Thornton

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Starkjudo
We managed to make it through five times each in about 40 minutes a few months ago. That includes both sides, but minus the bowing. I was pretty happy with that. It takes a really good partner with a great deal of trust to do it - i've only got one that I trust to go that far with me in class.


That is the secret, isn't it?


My legs would get shaky after and hour and a half of practice just on that kata but doing randori for twice that, I'd barely break a sweat.

But you still have my admiration.

John Cornish had Donn Draeger and they still had to do it three times for one throw which didn't please Kyuzo Mifune.

Mark

[Starkjudo]

We had the advantage over them of not having to keep any Japanese instructors happy :)

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by PeteBoyes
Legend, there's certainly clubs like that in my neck of the woods - but they're a long way from you, and even further when you move to the West coast..

One of the Juniors at our club is an accomplished champion and often travels to different clubs to get a variety of opponents. His parents took him to a particular club locally and after one randori the lad was asked to leave the mat by the 'sensei'.

The reasons were that they don't actually throw at that club, just turn in for the throw. Similarly, with newaza (groundwork) they teach armlocks and strangles, but never apply them. It calls to mind something from my childhood (many many years ago!) where someone would come up to you and flick their hand towards your face while saying "I could have killed you then!" :D

[QUOTE][i]Finding a 'complete' club which has champions as well as technicians is very rare. Good luck in your search.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. At the highest levels, most champions ARE technicians.

Ben Reinhardt