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John Lindsey
2nd October 2003, 05:12
Seems like this subject comes up every year or so and I thought it was time to dedicate a thread to this subject.

My opinion: MYTH.

In regards to a hot barrel being easier to cut, I don't buy it. When I was an Army Ranger, I spent two years carrying a M60 machine gun and often shot her till her barrels glowed red (we had two barrels per gun). The Army may do dumb things, but they don't buy guns that go soft :).

Ok, here is what what Daniel M. Furuya wrote in Black Belt mag years ago:


There is a World War II training film showing Magoroku Kanemoto, a famous cutter, slicing through a machine-gun barrel. Even today, some smiths make swords which are known to cut through a rifle barrel and shave glass. Hokkesaburo Nobutsugu, whose son is still making swords today, was well known for this.

I have heard that there was such a film made for the Marines, but the barrel was made out of wood. Now, if this was a WW2 training film, how the heck did Magoroku Kanemoto get involved in this project? Did he hop on a boat to California? Or was this film a Japanese propaganda film. HAS ANYONE EVEN SEEN IT?

John Lindsey
2nd October 2003, 05:24
Another quote from: http://www.scene360.com/EDITINGroom_astudy_fightscenes_02.html




Although the advent of firearms eventually devalued the sword and its usage in military combat, there is actual film footage showing a machine-gun barrel being sliced in half by a sword from the forge of the great 15th century maker, Kanemoto II.

Hachiman
2nd October 2003, 05:39
Some folks put words in red, so it can be a pain to read at times, but here is a very long thread on swordforum.com about this subject.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10804&highlight=cutting+guns+barrel

pgsmith
2nd October 2003, 06:24
Sorry John, but the whole gun barrel thing is just a myth. Anyone that has done much cutting with a Japanese sword will tell you that they can't cut through something as thick as a steel gun barrel. It's a simple matter of physics.

Do you know that there are well respected historians that still write that medieval European armor was so heavy that knights had to be lifted on to their horses with cranes. (I've seen a gentleman do a cartwheel in full plate armor) There are still some that will tell you in all seriousness that European swords weighed 20 pounds. (3 pounds was considered heavy) :D

Misinformation abounds. Once it is in accepted texts, it continues to be written into new texts (research?) despite the fact that new information has proven it false.

My two cents worth on it!

Cheers,

John Lindsey
2nd October 2003, 06:28
Paul,

Nothing to be sorry about, since I agree with you. I think it is just an urban legend...

Mekugi
2nd October 2003, 06:35
I pity your plight with the M-60, the most 'jammingest and heaviest things around, IMHO.
They are fun to shoot, however.

The hot barrel makes the steel soft and warps it because of expansion; cooling it quickly can destroy it immediatly- ruining the temper (as everyone knows). That is true...however thats not going to happen just firing rounds through it.One has other problems to worry about other than if someone is going to cut your barrel with a sword- rounds heating up and firing by themselves for instance.

It is concievable to me that if one was using a 30 pound maul hammer with the barrel propped flat on a log, and the thing was heated almost to the point of becoming liquid it would be easier to cut. Otherwise I totally disagree and think it's all hogwash.

I've also seen WWII Paratrooper training films, where they stated if the soldier ever ended up in South Pacific Shark Infested water to "Move your legs and arms about rapidly and make lots of noise" to "scare off" the sharks.

Ummm....right...

"I'm not faster than the lion, but I am faster than the guy next to me!"

-Russ


Originally posted by John Lindsey
Seems like this subject comes up every year or so and I thought it was time to dedicate a thread to this subject.

My opinion: MYTH.

In regards to a hot barrel being easier to cut, I don't buy it. When I was an Army Ranger, I spent two years carrying a M60 machine gun and often shot her till her barrels glowed red (we had two barrels per gun). The Army may do dumb things, but they don't buy guns that go soft :).

Ok, here is what what Daniel M. Furuya wrote in Black Belt mag years ago:


I have heard that there was such a film made for the Marines, but the barrel was made out of wood. Now, if this was a WW2 training film, how the heck did Magoroku Kanemoto get involved in this project? Did he hop on a boat to California? Or was this film a Japanese propaganda film. HAS ANYONE EVEN SEEN IT?

ghp
2nd October 2003, 07:14
I read an article in John Grimmet's Nanka Tokenkai newsletter sometime around 1983-4. Actually, it was a letter published in the newsletter addressing the same topic, and was written by an elderly Finish or Swedish gentleman who once served in the German army during WWII (many Fins did time in any army that allowed them to fight the Soviets). This gentleman wrote saying that he himself saw the propaganda (training?) film; that it actually did exist and is not merely a legend. He further stated that the barrel of a machine gun was in fact cut into. Can't remember if he said the sword cut in two, or cut into -- that is, if the blade lodged into the barrel.

I can only imagine a few scenarios:

1. Supposed "Combat Footage": perhaps the barrel was a wooden substitution that was exchanged (film magic) just before the officer over-ran the position and proceded to enter into "Budo Legend." (Which begs the question -- what was a Japanese film crew doing there if it was suposed to be actual combat footage??)

2. Popular fare: The film might have been a "Hollywood" type of production for entertainment/morale purposes -- not an actual training event or combat footage. Something to reinforce the mettle of the troops and the morale of the civilians.

3. Training film: It might have been an actual test, but perhaps the machinegun had a water-cooled jacket surrounding the barrel like our early M2s; perhaps the blade did cut into the cooling jacket (but not through the barrel).

Like John, I've fired many an M-60 and "Ma Deuce", and know that barrels must be changed when they get hot or else you get "barrel droop" and your rounds don't hit where you aim -- or, you mess up your "head-space and timing." Anyway, even with a heat-softened barrel, the word "soft" is only relative. There is no way that a sword could cut into the steel barrel-- much less through it.

If ever I find that newsletter I'll have to transcribe the letter.

Regards,
Guy

Oh, yes ... I know that "barrel droop" is a tanker term -- but I suppose it could be applied to a machine gun.

Tankers: If you use your protection properly, you can avoid "barrel droop."

Budoka 34
2nd October 2003, 12:53
Well, you know if the blade was made out of depleted uranium...... oh never mind.:D

It's a matter if physics. If memeory serves, the watercooled guns used lite gauged steel or copper and brass for the jackets. Even if the weapon in question was a watercooled 1919 or M2 the sword would at best only cut the jacket.


:smilejapa

Brian Owens
4th October 2003, 07:21
Gee, what a coincidence. We were just discussing this yesterday on another thread.

See:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21578&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

MartialArtist
5th October 2003, 04:43
Steel is steel. No matter what you do to it, it's still steel.

Steel and steel contact would cause nicks or chips on the blade. A katana or no sword that was designed for combat is able to slice through a barrel. The sword and the barrel will both sustain significant damage. Even if it was a Howard Clark L6, swords were not used to cut metal. Some broadswords were used to chop and bash armor, but no sword was designed to cut or pierce armor really.

The design of the katana makes it so that the edge is hard and the back is soft. That means that you don't have to sharpen it as frequently as a European sword, however, a European sword has a harder back and won't chip or nick as easily. And European swords, if bent, will return to their normal shape while katanas, when bent, will stay that way.

The folding and the layers and how 4 million layers will cut through anything is a myth. Folding it so many times to have millions of layers is detrimental. The reason for the folding process is to spread the carbon content of the steel. Japan is not a major resource of high quality of steel, so the folding process was necessary in order to make the low quality steel up to par with say, Swedish powdered steel which is one of the finest.

A sword may be able to cut through a M3 at the barrel, only because it is thin and made up of pretty much scrap metal. But again, it would come at major expense of the sword. The guntos of WWII would not be able to cut anything other than flesh, as they were cheap and mass produced.

MartialArtist
5th October 2003, 04:46
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Seems like this subject comes up every year or so and I thought it was time to dedicate a thread to this subject.

My opinion: MYTH.

In regards to a hot barrel being easier to cut, I don't buy it. When I was an Army Ranger, I spent two years carrying a M60 machine gun and often shot her till her barrels glowed red (we had two barrels per gun). The Army may do dumb things, but they don't buy guns that go soft :).

Ok, here is what what Daniel M. Furuya wrote in Black Belt mag years ago:


I have heard that there was such a film made for the Marines, but the barrel was made out of wood. Now, if this was a WW2 training film, how the heck did Magoroku Kanemoto get involved in this project? Did he hop on a boat to California? Or was this film a Japanese propaganda film. HAS ANYONE EVEN SEEN IT?
You were in the 75th as well? What battalion?

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 10:24
Originally posted by MartialArtist
The folding and the layers and how 4 million layers will cut through anything is a myth. Folding it so many times to have millions of layers is detrimental. The reason for the folding process is to spread the carbon content of the steel. Japan is not a major resource of high quality of steel, so the folding process was necessary in order to make the low quality steel up to par with say, Swedish powdered steel which is one of the finest.

I've never heard of a katana with "millions" of layers. Typically a sword blank was folded 10 or 11 times, resulting in 1024 or 2048 layers. Occasionally you might see 12 folds resulting in 4096 layers. But millions? I don't think so. 4 million layers would require 22 folds, and after that many folds you'd have nothing left of your blank but a smudge on your anvil.

I also suspect you'll get a good number of people disputing the superiority of Swedish powdered steel for swordmaking. As long as it wasn't heated beyond 1100 degrees or so, Japanese steel was excellent. During the shinto period forging at temperatures over 1500 degrees to make forging easier resulted in a decline in quality, but that was the forging process, not the lack of good iron ore in Japan.

But, as usual, that's just my opinion. Others may differ.

poryu
5th October 2003, 10:33
Hi John


Originally posted by John Lindsey
how the heck did Magoroku Kanemoto get involved in this project?

This one is the easiest of all to answer.

He didnt get involved in any way personally. I own a katana made by Kanemoto Magoroku. He has been dead for around 450 years.
Has anyone ever got a modern smith involved to test this supposed feat.

Maybe one of the smiths like Paul Champagne could smith a sword, and then have it tested on a genuine machine gun from WW2.

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 10:50
Originally posted by MartialArtist
The design of the katana makes it so that the edge is hard and the back is soft. That means that you don't have to sharpen it as frequently as a European sword, however, a European sword has a harder back and won't chip or nick as easily. And European swords, if bent, will return to their normal shape while katanas, when bent, will stay that way.

Actually a hard back would be more prone to chip or nick. Hard steel chips, soft steel dents. That's why Japanese blades laminate different types of steel or use differential tempering: hard blade for superior edge, soft back and sides for chip/break resistance.

And if a blade can be bent and it springs back into shape it's not due to hardness, it's due to elasticity.

The Coffee God
5th October 2003, 11:35
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I've never heard of a katana with "millions" of layers. Typically a sword blank was folded 10 or 11 times, resulting in 1024 or 2048 layers. Occasionally you might see 12 folds resulting in 4096 layers. But millions? I don't think so. 4 million layers would require 22 folds, and after that many folds you'd have nothing left of your blank but a smudge on your anvil.

Actually in John Yumoto's book "The Samurai Sword, a Handbook" he mentions that the way a katana is forged, by the time it has been folded 10 times, it exceeds 300,000 layers. He gives a very specific number in the 300,000 range, but I don't have the book any more so I'm just paraphrasing at the moment. My point being, is that a katana starts off with many, many broken ore shards, stacked upon a spatula made of the same material and then pounded into a solid piece, once two pieces of this are made, they are then put together and forged into the shape of the blade in lamination form.

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 12:06
Originally posted by The Coffee God
Actually in John Yumoto's book "The Samurai Sword, a Handbook" he mentions that the way a katana is forged, by the time it has been folded 10 times, it exceeds 300,000 layers. He gives a very specific number in the 300,000 range, but I don't have the book any more so I'm just paraphrasing at the moment.

1 fold 2
2 folds 4
3 folds 8
4 folds 16
5 folds 32
6 folds 64
7 folds 128
8 folds 256
9 folds 512
10 folds 1,024
11 folds 2,048
12 folds 4,096
13 folds 8,192
14 folds 16,384
15 folds 32,768
16 folds 65,536
17 folds 131,072
18 folds 262,144
19 folds 524,288
20 folds 1,048,576
21 folds 2,097,152
22 folds 4,194,304

poryu
5th October 2003, 12:43
Hi

I also read in a book I have - too many to search through to find which. That if the metal is folded more then 21 times it is so soft you could bend it in your hands.

Folds may make it stronger but only if the layers are thick enough to add any strength.

Also the amount of time it would take to create 21+ folds would be very time consuming and not production. When I met Sumitani he told us on average most smiths do between 9 and 12 folds these days

The Coffee God
5th October 2003, 12:48
If you're starting with a single piece of iron unlayered to beging with, those figures are correct, if you're starting with a layered piece of iron to begin with, then it depends on the number of layers the piece has.
Take for example: [we'll use a modern steel as to not confuse you]
A piece of twisted steel cable
Let's say it has 5 strands, each strand is made up of 10 smaller strands, which equals 50 strands of steel; a nice round number.
If you start with that number, it goes up quite quick as you see...

50 fold 100
100 fold 200
200 fold 400
400 fold 800
800 fold 1,600
1,600 fold 3,200
3,200 fold 6,400
6,400 fold 12,800
12,800 fold 25,600
ect, ect...

Now, let's just give an example, let's say the broken pieces of iron ore on the spatula equal about 32, should that be folded 10 times, that would make 16,384 layers...for just one block of steel. In the makings of a katana in traditional fashion, there are two blocks folded in half and put together to make the blade. That makes 50,786 layers.
See where I'm going with this?

Ford Hallam
5th October 2003, 15:05
Gentlemen,

I`m surprised that no-one has mentioned any more recent tests of the Japanese forged blades ability to cut steel.
There exists a profesionally produced ( one of the Japanese TV stations, I think ) video which features a sword made by the well known smith Yoshindo Yoshihara being used to cut into a steel kabuto. The result was that the blade suffered no damage to the edge while the helmet recieved a ventilation slit about 3 inches long. If some unfortunate soul had been wearing it at the time i imagine that they would have suffered a somewhat impacted neck and a splitting ( sorry, poor pun! ) headache but perhaps only a relatively minor gash in the skull.

The gentleman who actually performed the test, whilst being the very wealthy induvidual who commisioned and paid for the sword ( and I rather suspect the actual documentary. ) was probably not the most qualified to best demonstrate the swords capabilities.
The look of relief on Yoshihara san`s face when he realizes that his work has survived is very telling. Had things gone badly his reputation would have been seriously damaged and I imagine we would not have seen the footage.

The actual cutting of the helmet is in best cliff-hanger tradition, right at the end of the tape. At the beginning however we see a demonstration which compares the cutting ability of a gendaito and an older blade, koto i think. The result was predictable. The tubular steel frame of a beach chair was cut cleanly in two with no visible damage to the older blade. ( the edges of the cut were distorted though, which was to be expected. ) The gendaito did`nt fare so well, it failed to sever the pipe, merely denting it while sustaining a severe bend. I don`t recall if the steel of the sword was actually chipped or not. I really should dig the video out and watch it again. Various sundry items which routinely had to be dealt with by working samurai are also mutilated by the valiant tester, I seem to remember a motorbike petrol tank and a metal container of milk!

Hope this adds a little to the general discussion on the capabilities of these fine weapons, which are after all only as good as the men weilding them.

Regards,

Ford Hallam

The Coffee God
5th October 2003, 15:20
Surprisingly enough, In 1994 using a newly made katana by Paul Champagne and the same late 16th-early 17th century Hineno style kabuto, Obata Toshishiro Kaiso beat the record of 12 centimeters held by Terutaka Kawabata in 1986 with Yoshindo's blade. The katana was used as a bare blade with only nylon rope as the handle, leaving a 13 centimeter gash in the kabuto and an unmarred blade.

The Coffee God
5th October 2003, 16:19
Also interestingly enough, staying inlines with modern test cutting, Michael Bell tests his forge-welded steel cable swords on free-hanging cable.


Except taken out of a '97 Tactical Knives magazine

I started cutting cable about 4 years ago. Anytime you set out to develop a new material, you invariably end up with blades that are a failure for one reason or another. I quickly learned to forge-weld logging cable, and I made any number of knives out of it and found out that it was easy to heat treat and was very aggressive in cutting. So I started making progressively longer and longer swords out of it. As I played with the material in a wakizashi length, I was finding that they would heat treat just like a piece of traditional Japanese steel, with a nice hard edge. So I started testing their cutting ability. I started off fairly gentle with the stuff, cutting 1-inch aluminum pipe in two, then copper pipe, all sorts of bush and trees up to 2-inch alders and 3-inch bundle of green bamboo using the Kesa stroke, cutting downward from the shoulder and out the bottom of the rib cage.

Then I started cutting various thickness of mild steel rod, until I could cut through a ¼-inch rod in one swipe. Then it occured to me that since cable was such tough stuff, that it might be an interesting test to try and cut cable. So I tied some 3/8-inch steel cable up in a tree and did a free-hanging wire rope test. Not every sword would cut it 100 per cent, but the better ones did.

MartialArtist
5th October 2003, 18:25
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I've never heard of a katana with "millions" of layers. Typically a sword blank was folded 10 or 11 times, resulting in 1024 or 2048 layers. Occasionally you might see 12 folds resulting in 4096 layers. But millions? I don't think so. 4 million layers would require 22 folds, and after that many folds you'd have nothing left of your blank but a smudge on your anvil.

I also suspect you'll get a good number of people disputing the superiority of Swedish powdered steel for swordmaking. As long as it wasn't heated beyond 1100 degrees or so, Japanese steel was excellent. During the shinto period forging at temperatures over 1500 degrees to make forging easier resulted in a decline in quality, but that was the forging process, not the lack of good iron ore in Japan.

But, as usual, that's just my opinion. Others may differ.
Nihonto usually don't advertise how many layers they have, and neither do katanas made by reputable people such as Howard Clark.

However, some stainless steel katanas are advertising the 4 million layers and so on and they are the same people who are spreading "a katana can cut through all European swords, cut railroad tracks, cut through trees".

Japanese steel usually had a lower carbon content than steel from Europe, and like you've said, the amount of ore was rare.

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 20:28
Originally posted by The Coffee God
If you're starting with a single piece of iron unlayered to beging with, those figures are correct, if you're starting with a layered piece of iron to begin with, then it depends on the number of layers the piece has. Now, let's just give an example, let's say the broken pieces of iron ore on the spatula equal about 32, should that be folded 10 times, that would make 16,384 layers...for just one block of steel. In the makings of a katana in traditional fashion, there are two blocks folded in half and put together to make the blade. That makes 50,786 layers. See where I'm going with this?

I could be mistaken on this, but aren't the "broken pieces of iron" on the spatual melted into a single ingot prior to forging?

I suppose if you want to do a microscopic examination you could come up with some really high numbers, but when I think of the "layers" in a Nipponto, I'm thinking of the forge-welded layers...which number in the hundreds or thousands, not millions.

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 20:32
Yoshindo's blades are amazing in their strength. He forged them in the old style from a single type of steel, differentially heat-treated, rather than the mass production oriented "jacketed core" method that he considered an "abomination."

I wish I could afford one!

Brian Owens
6th October 2003, 22:17
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Yoshindo's blades are amazing in their strength. He forged them in the old style from a single type of steel, differentially heat-treated, rather than the mass production oriented "jacketed core" method that he considered an "abomination."

A correction to the above post: I was thinking of Yasuhiro Kobayashi, not Yoshindo Yoshihara. Yasuhiro uses one piece forging; Yoshindo uses kobuse forging. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Brian Owens
6th October 2003, 22:28
But speaking of Yoshindo:


Originally posted by The Coffee God
Actually in John Yumoto's book "The Samurai Sword, a Handbook" he mentions that the way a katana is forged, by the time it has been folded 10 times, it exceeds 300,000 layers.

I haven't been able to find a copy of the Yumoto book you mention, but here is what I found in The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Leon & Hiroko Kapp, and Yoshindo Yoshihara:


There is no prescribed number of folds, although in Yoshindo's case it is usually about thirteen times in all.

And in the next paragraph:


The forged metal, having been folded thirteen times or more, becomes a kind of metallic pastry dough, consisting of layer upon layer--some 16,000 or more--per inch of steel.

It appears that the method of counting layers and the number of layers itself is subject to some variability. However I think most here would agree that advertising a stainless steel, made in Spain "katana" as having 4,000,000 layers and being a superior blade is probably marketing hype, not fact.

But I'd still like to see someone cut off a machine gun barrel!

pgsmith
6th October 2003, 22:32
How does kobuse method of forging translate to mass production? From what I understand, it is more time consuming and difficult to produce a blade using kobuse method. There is some debate over whether you actually gain much that way, but I've never heard it referred to as relating to mass production.

Cheers,

Brian Owens
6th October 2003, 22:52
I think it comes down to the heat treating process. To get a good blade from single piece forging is very difficult and time consumming. By using two different types of steel you can get the same effect more easily; a sort of short-cut.

But that is a constroversial statement, to be sure. Not everyone agrees. Yasuhiro thought kobuse swords were "an abomination." Some felt that it was good for swords made more for viewing than to be used in battle. But obviously not all would agree.

Nathan Scott
6th October 2003, 23:49
Hi all,

I'd like to add a few things:

John, that's what you get for reading books by Daniel Furuya! :)


Steel and steel contact would cause nicks or chips on the blade.

This is not necessarily correct, and is perhaps the subject of this thread. Metal can cut metal without damage, as long as the cutting metal is sufficiently harder than the metal being cut. I have a few Strider Knives that proove this. Other examples are the aforementioned kabutorwari by kenshi like Obata Sensei, in which a heat treated helmet was partially split, but the blade used was not damaged (didn't chip of bend).

As a more common example, tin snips are metal scissors that are made to cut tin.

So the question remains, what type of barrel was split (not cut) by a Japanese sword in this propaganda video? Even if it was a non-functional barrel, painted black and made of annealed alluminum or tin or something, it would have given the apperance of a sword having cut a gun - even from up close. chances are more likely that it was painted bamboo or wood though. There has to be copies of this footage around somewhere, don't ya think?

Also, there has been much written about folding swords and what it does, both here and on swordforum.com. Please do a search instead of speculating about it in this thread.

Folding does not make a sword "stronger" from a literal standpoint, it removes impurities from the steel and makes it more uniform. Take out too much carbon and impurities, and the steel becomes too soft. In fact, folded or unfolded swords has nothing really to do with this subject!

Glad to see a thread dedicated to this myth though.

Regards,

The Coffee God
7th October 2003, 00:13
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
It appears that the method of counting layers and the number of layers itself is subject to some variability. However I think most here would agree that advertising a stainless steel, made in Spain "katana" as having 4,000,000 layers and being a superior blade is probably marketing hype, not fact.

But I'd still like to see someone cut off a machine gun barrel!
:D
And indeed, I would agree as well.
I never said anything about millions of layers, just a few hundred thousand, nor was I discussing steel from Spain. I was merely posting what I have read in a valuable sourcebook on Japanese swords(though a bit dated).

Brian Owens
7th October 2003, 00:17
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Also, there has been much written about folding swords and what it does, both here and on swordforum.com. Please do a search instead of speculating about it in this thread.

In fact, folded or unfolded swords has nothing really to do with this subject!

But speculation and going off on tangents is what e-Budo.com is all about, isn't it? If I just wanted to read someone else's opinions without a two-way exchange/debate I could buy a book. :)

Nathan Scott
7th October 2003, 02:54
My point was that there is no mystery behind swordmaking. It is scientific in process, even when done by feel. Facts and speculation are different things. But feel free to pull this thread off tangent. It will be fun for us, but everyone else will eventually get tired of scrolling through our noise and give up.

Off to keiko,

MartialArtist
7th October 2003, 06:28
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hi all,

I'd like to add a few things:

John, that's what you get for reading books by Daniel Furuya! :)



This is not necessarily correct, and is perhaps the subject of this thread. Metal can cut metal without damage, as long as the cutting metal is sufficiently harder than the metal being cut. I have a few Strider Knives that proove this. Other examples are the aforementioned kabutorwari by kenshi like Obata Sensei, in which a heat treated helmet was partially split, but the blade used was not damaged (didn't chip of bend).

As a more common example, tin snips are metal scissors that are made to cut tin.

So the question remains, what type of barrel was split (not cut) by a Japanese sword in this propaganda video? Even if it was a non-functional barrel, painted black and made of annealed alluminum or tin or something, it would have given the apperance of a sword having cut a gun - even from up close. chances are more likely that it was painted bamboo or wood though. There has to be copies of this footage around somewhere, don't ya think?

Also, there has been much written about folding swords and what it does, both here and on swordforum.com. Please do a search instead of speculating about it in this thread.

Folding does not make a sword "stronger" from a literal standpoint, it removes impurities from the steel and makes it more uniform. Take out too much carbon and impurities, and the steel becomes too soft. In fact, folded or unfolded swords has nothing really to do with this subject!

Glad to see a thread dedicated to this myth though.

Regards,
I haven't said metal and metal caused chips and nicks, but notice I said steel and steel contacts have caused nicks. You wouldn't believe how many busted katanas or Claymores or any type of sword I've seen broken swords because some guy wanted to cut stoplights, railroad tracks, and/or pipes from the hardware store. :rolleyes:

There is a Chinese weapon called a sword breaker (don't know what it is called formally) and many cultures have this. It's basically a steel rod. The Okinawan sai are also dubbed as sword breakers. But sword on sword contact, you can expect chips and nicks on the blade, it's a natural process and it's enevitable.

I brought up folding, and I did certainly say that it was to make the poor iron quality in Japan workable, and to spread the carbon content. However, the folding process goes hand-in-hand with the process because many people advertise that the katana is some sort of god weapon because it's been folded X many times.

The design of the katana allows it to have a harder edge and a softer back. You will get scratches, nicks, and bring damage to your sword when you go up against another sword.

Brian Owens
4th November 2003, 01:37
Originally posted by The Coffee God
Actually in John Yumoto's book "The Samurai Sword, a Handbook" he mentions that the way a katana is forged, by the time it has been folded 10 times, it exceeds 300,000 layers. He gives a very specific number in the 300,000 range, but I don't have the book any more so I'm just paraphrasing at the moment.
Okay, the above quote was posted almost a month ago, but I just received a copy of John Yumoto's book yesterday, and wanted to clarify this.

The book says (page 95, middle of the page): "The pattern these layers assume is called the grain (hada). By the time the steel has been folded fifteen times, there will be 32,768 layers of steel."

You will note that that is the exact number I gave in my table earlier in this thread. It appears that The Coffe God mentally misplaced the comma and added a zero in his recollection of this book, in addition to thinking the reference was to 10 folds, rather than 15.

I'm glad I got this book. Although it was first published in 1958, it has a lot of good information I've not seen before such as a table of relative values, charts of smiths and their styles/periods, etc. Had it not been for this thread going off on a tangent and The Coffe God mentioning this book I might not ever have come across it.

Who says Web surfing's a waste of time! :)

The Coffee God
4th November 2003, 07:54
:D
I told you I was paraphrasing, it's been quite a few years since I read the book and I'm suprised I even remember that much of it.
Thinking about it though, I think my copy had a typo, because I went to Barnes & Noble the other day and reread the making process in that book and you are indeed correct, it is 15/32,768.
I'm glad I could bring up a book of interest to your attention, it is a really good book from what I remember. I guess I should break down and buy another copy for my library.

Brian Owens
4th November 2003, 08:06
Originally posted by The Coffee God
I guess I should break down and buy another copy for my library.
Mine is the 1999, 35th printing! 1958 - 1999. That's quite a run for a book on what is, after all, a rather obscure topic. I got mine at Kinokuniya Books for US$21.95, the publisher's (Tuttle) list price.

I'm just now looking at the list of kanji in Chapter 6, Inscriptions and Their Readings. 17 pages!

Several pages of illustrations of hamon patterns, types of flaws, etc.

For a collector or sword enthusiast, this could be a valuable addition to the library.

I still recommend The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp, Kapp, and Yoshihara. The latter is a smith, from a family of smiths, and in addition to the chapters on sword history and forging methods the book also includes chapters on the art of habaki and saya making. It has some nice color plates, too.

I have the first addition, 1987, by Kodansha. I don't know if it's still in print.

Good reading!