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S.Jubei
3rd October 2003, 05:57
Hello

I will shortly be starting both Shotokan Karate and Aikido.
Does anyone think this is a bad idea starting both at once?
The reason for this is that i would like to see which art i prefur and then in a years time continue one of the arts.
From what i have heard and seen i think Karate is the art i will prefur.
I cant imagine doing Karate and somthing such as Kung Fu or TKD together as there completly different Martial Arts and come from different countries. Because both Karate and Aikido are from Japan i thought it might not be too hard to start both at once?

Any thoughts?
Thanks

S.Jubei

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 10:01
Originally posted by S.Jubei
Hello

...

Any thoughts?
Thanks

S.Jubei

Yes, my first thought is: Don't!

As a newbie you won't be able to grasp good basics in both at once. If you don't get good basics (i.e. bad habits in fundemental techniques) you're going nowhere!

Do one for 4-5 years, get proficient in it. Then think about expanding your horizons to a new art which can fill in the spaces which your current art doesn't cover.

Your first year in an art is your most important (controversial maybe .... but my opinion). After your first year you should have a grounding in an art. If you have been doing two arts, you will be confused as to what goes with which art. Any errors in your technique here will take much longer to fix. I remember hearing somewhere that you need to repeat something 5,000 times for it to become second nature (was referring to driving). Imagine that the first 5,000 times you do a technique in your karate class are all wrong because you're still thinknig about your Aikido. Now a wrong technique is second nature to you. Bad place to be starting from!

Anyways, that's my opinion. Whatever you decide on, good luck to you.

S.Jubei
3rd October 2003, 10:24
What you say makes sence.
I'll just go for karate then.

Thanks :)

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 10:47
Originally posted by S.Jubei
What you say makes sence.
I'll just go for karate then.

Thanks :)

S,

Give it a while, let a few more people give their opinions on the matter. Just cos i answered first doesn't make it right! :)

Just because i don't think it'd work for me doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who managed to combine training in 2 arts from newbie at the same time without getting confused.

EDIT: Do a search for Cross Training in the Members Lounge. There was a big discussion/arguement about doing two different arts at the same time not that long ago .... the last post was probably less than a month ago. That might give some more info.

PRehse
3rd October 2003, 11:03
I'ld do both - karate and Aikido are different enough that if you got half a brain in your head you should have no problem keeping them separate.

It gets a bit weird if you do two different styles of either Karate or Aikido.

If you find one bores you to tears while the other rocks than drop one and go for the other. Most dojos are used to keen beginners dropping out after a few months so don't worry about offending anyone.

I'ld rather explore a bit in the beginning and find something I really like.

David Russell
3rd October 2003, 11:42
Hello,

I would recomend that you only practice one of these arts.

The reason is they each have a different initial response to an attack.

Generally speaking.

Karate is a force meets force art.

Aikido is a force avoidance art.

Your subconscious needs to learn and master a response to an attack. Training in both arts before you have mastered one will confuse your subconscous and could cause a momentary delay in your reaction to an attack. (not a good thing).

David Russell

Elliot Harris
3rd October 2003, 15:54
I think the two will compliment each other nicely, and as long as you can keep in mind how they compliment each other and keep your training separate when you need to, you will probably do just fine. Ex: Karate will help you develop good solid and balanced strikes. Aikido will help you blend and parry. Never say in an aikido class, “well this is how they taught me to strike in my karate class,” or in your karate class, “well in my aikido class they say blocking is bad, I should parry.” Never the less, if you are up front with your instructors at the beginning as to your training goals, after some time you may see that there is opportunity to question specifics to clarify any potential misunderstandings – different instructors may take this differently so don’t start questioning stuff right away.

The problem here is that there really are too many variables to give any but the most general advice on the internet. Everything from the attitude of the instructors in question; to your personal outlook, body type and athletic ability, maturity; even with the most capable students and well intentioned sensei, there are different styles of karate and aikido both and each has its own emphasis on movement strategies and how to meet/redirect force and/or apply technique. Unfortunately, I do not have a solution to offer.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

Prince Loeffler
3rd October 2003, 16:17
It is hard to give an opinion to someone I don't really know well. Personaly, Stick to one core art until you have the fundamentals and understanding. Then try the other art later.

Remember, Training and Practicing are two different animals. If you are deadset in learning both art, make sure you have the time to practice.

Good Luck !

Shimura
3rd October 2003, 16:24
Speaking from direct experience, having a shodan in Shotokan and now studying Aikido, I would suggest sticking with one or the other at first. Karate is a great art to start with, but as others have mentioned in this thread, there is some fundamental differences to techinque and application that don't really allow them to completely coincide. However, practicing one of the sword arts (kendo, iai etc) in conjunction with Aikido is usually fine due to the crossover. Best advice though is to get a shodan in one or the other and then decide which way you wish to continue your martial training from there.

Rob Alvelais
3rd October 2003, 17:12
Originally posted by S.Jubei
Hello

I will shortly be starting both Shotokan Karate and Aikido.
Does anyone think this is a bad idea starting both at once?

I can see one circumstance where this would not be a bad idea. That is when you have the situation where your Aikido instr is well-versed (read: Dan Ranked) in Shotokan and your karate instr is well versed in Aikido. Not only that, but there should be communication between your Aikido and the Shotokan instr's. If these two things aren't the case, you're probably going to be confused, to the point of not being able to do either art well, and therefore not really able to make a good decision as to what you really want to continue doing, vis a vis aikido or karate. This sort of confusion comes up with an athlete, when there are two instr's who aren't working in concert with one another, even when they're teaching the same art and style.

Rob

S.Jubei
4th October 2003, 10:01
Argh Desisions !!!

I see that alot of people have different views on this subject and they all seem to make sence. In Topic of the last post the instructors from Karate and Aikido are not in touch with each other and neither have studied in a different Martial Art.
I Realy feel if i learnt both they would help each other out due to the fact there both almost completly different and where Karate lacks in Throws etc i could patch up with Aikido and same goes the other way.
But i can also understand that doing both would mean that i would not be able to become very good in a particular art.
I could see myself sitting in lesson thinking "Well in Aikido we wouldnt do it like that, thats a stupid thing to do its wide open for a counter attack"

Well i'll carry on my thinking about what to do.
Feel free to continue helping me out on the subject.

Brian Owens
4th October 2003, 11:05
I've bounced around from one art to another over the years. I still haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up. :)

But I agree with several posts that suggest doing only one at a time, at least until you have a solid base in the first one.

Which one to pick first? Well, what are your goals? What kind of person are you?

If you are someone who likes competition (do you play sports like football or baseball where the goal is to beat someone else's score and "win"?), then you'd probably like karate better at first.

If you're a more introspective person who is interested in his own as well as other people's growth, then you might find aikido to be the perfect first art.

Surprisingly, as you mature and gain experience, you'll find that the underlying motivation in both arts can be the same. As a wise man once said, "There are many paths to the top of the mountain. From the bottom they look very different, but from the top the view is the same."

Good luck in your choice.

PRehse
4th October 2003, 12:50
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I've bounced around from one art to another over the years. I still haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up. :)

:D
I made Tigger (friend of Pooh Bear) look sedate.

Logically everyone who says get a solid grounding in one before exploring further is perfectly correct. I've made the same argument before and it really makes sense if you have found your chosen art.

Lately I've changed my mind. Perhaps it is just one person too many proclaiming that they will do [insert art here] for life and then they disappear into the woodwork.

Perhaps these people would stick around longer if they actually did a bit of physical research (on the mat) rather than read books or listen to us spout off our collective wisdom.

A few months dojo hopping is not going to ingrain any habits that can't be changed in about the same amount of time.

At their core - especially in Japanese martial arts - they are basically the same. It just might not be obvious right away.

Physically, mentally and emotionally certain arts are more suited to certain individuals - a relation that is not always obvious.

Personally I really wonder if I had spent the time reading about Aikido that I would have started. I was attracted by the joint techniques which I first experienced in full contact Japanese boxing and was told the best place to learn more was in Aikido. And frankly speaking - a lot of what's written about Aikido would have sent me running. So basically were I am now (firmly doing Aikido) is because of my almost yearly dojo explorations.

Gene Williams
4th October 2003, 13:46
I was in Shito-ryu for 25 years and Godan before I felt like I had the time to even explore another art. I started with aikido, loved the people, loved the class, the instructor was highly accomplished (a Kanai student),and I learned a lot...for about six months. I then realized that, 1.)I am a perfectionist and would never be as good an aikidoka as I am a karateka, 2.) If you are really serious and study the arts in order to seek the deeper aspects of them, I really believe that you will never really master more than one. Any traditional art will take you there, you must choose one that fits you. For me, karate includes a lot of things, jujutsu techniques, kobudo, lots of hard physical exercise, the kata which, to me, are the most profound aspect of karate. That was why I chose to stay there. I took up kenjutsu next, and love iaido because it gets me into a kata mindset right off. But, again, sword is the most complex of all of the arts ( with the possible exception of aikido) and I knew I'd never reach a high level of proficiency without sacrificing my karate. So I practice 18 iaido cuts, that's it. So, there is a perspective from one who has been in karate for 33 years. Gene

PS...I think you are biting off more than you can chew, and the choice will eventually force itself on you;)

MarkF
4th October 2003, 14:05
How'd you like to have great keiko, be so tired after a class, you think you would fall over, yet feel so good that it didn't matter?

Kodokan Judo. Ok, most who know me know I've been playing judo, a bit longer than Gene has been alive...well, a bit longer than he's done karate, but I'm not recommending it due to any of that.

Judo is the one thing which will prepare you for anything else. You will learn how to fight full out and not get hurt (seriously), you will have such a good built in base that even when you do choose something else, when that fails, your judo will always save you, and considering you are looking for gendai budo, judo is the original. Outwardly, at least, everything you see in other MA was done by the founders of judo first, your keikogi, your obi, everything including how to do them safely.

Sound good?

Well, just give it some thought. I know few in most other budo who didn't play judo at some time in their training cycle, generally it is first, but not always.

I'm not recommending judo because it is what I do, but because of what others say, and do. In fact, ol' Gene once said to me "Mark, judo is the one thing I am sorry I did not study." Or something like that, but there was genuine feeling there.;)

Just a thought.


Mark

PRehse
4th October 2003, 14:13
Originally posted by MarkF
In fact, ol' Gene once said to me "Mark, judo is the one thing I am sorry I did not study." Or something like that, but there was genuine feeling there.;)
Ah but Mark - didn't you say to me that you regretted not having done Shodokan Aikido. ;)

Seriously - very few of us are still doing the Budo we first were exposed to. We grow, we change, we get lucky.

Once or twice I wish I had found Aikido earlier - but would I have been ready, would I have found the right teacher? What happens next year? Enjoyed karate, enjoyed the Nippon Kenpo, enjoyed the TKD, don't regret any of my mis-spent youth.


By the way - having a real blast right now exploring Judo.

Gene Williams
4th October 2003, 16:42
Hi Mark, I'm 2 years older than you. You must have begun your training in utero:D Yes, if I had to go back to the beginning and choose another art, it would be judo. We used to sit around after class having a beer and talk about who the most formidable, non-karate opponent would be. It always seemed to come down to either a judo guy who knew how to throw a punch, an Olympic wrestler who could punch, or an NFL linebacker:) This was before BJJ was popular...BJJ guys would have to be in there, too.

Elliot Harris
4th October 2003, 18:44
This will be a little long, but I wanted to be both clear and helpful so here goes...

While I have stated that I think it can work for one to study two arts at the same time successfully, generally this doesn’t work for the beginning student for a variety of the factors previously mentioned not falling into place.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle for new students to overcome is over exuberance. Often this results in burnout with the student dropping out of the martial arts completely. On the other hand, if you practice two arts, if you do start feeling burnout you can drop the one that least suits you and concentrate your efforts on your one chosen art.

Second is movement/stylistic confusion. Let’s use the punching technique as an example: in your aikido class, you may quickly find your strikes to be far more effective than those of your peers. Probably your sensei will be happy to see solid atemi from you, where you’ll generally have problems is with the occasional “expert” green belt who finds he has to “correct” your technique because you don’t do it like he does and you may be a little slower to develop a feel for the proper flow due to the relatively static nature of most karate (I am in no way saying karate is static or making a judgment as to the merits there of – just a statement of relativity). Or perhaps in Karate class you may find yourself wanting to move in a manner that is antithetical to what is normally seen in an effort to close some “obvious” openings. While at one level this could eventually advance your training faster than that of your peers, often it interferes with fully learning the syllabus where you would otherwise realize many of those previous “openings” were not as open as you once thought. Truth be told, most newbies to the martial arts who attempt simultaneous training have a hard time with keeping their training separate and compartmented and become frustrated and confused, either learning neither well/taking exceptionally long to progress or dropping the arts all together (more experienced practitioners may often be more able to keep things in perspective and successfully engage in training in multiple arts simultaneously). Hence the recommendation to pick one and stick with it until you get your black belt, then branch out as desired.

All this mostly applies if your intention is to begin two arts and continue their study indefinitely (which may yet happen), but if your intention is (as stated) to practice the two arts you believe yourself to have the most interest in simultaneously for one year then choose to really pursue the one that best suits you – then this way to do it may be just as good as any. So let me offer something a little more specific:

1- Inform your instructors up front of your intentions and see if they are receptive – Yes, then so far so good. No, then pick one and stick with it until black belt as previously recommended.
2- If you have a hard time with athletic skills, then trying to do two arts at once will be particularly difficult.
3- If you are the kind of guy who always has to challenge the teacher/ask a lot of questions (that must be vocalized vs questions that you will ponder and seek answers to on your own), then pursuing two arts simultaneously will be particularly difficult.
4- If you are the kind of guy who generally gets along with everyone, then this will be a definite plus in pursuing two arts simultaneously.

(this list is by no means to be interpreted as all inclusive)

At the end of the day, how well this may work will vary from individual to individual all based on a variety of factors that apply specifically to your situation – your mileage will vary.

BTW- as I am primarily a judoka I can biasedly say I agree with Mark for a whole slew of reasons (some exceptions apply); but as Gene pointed out, there are a lot of paths up the mountain.

S.Jubei
5th October 2003, 18:34
Wow i must say there have been some realy good points and views made.
From what i have read it seems it will be better to stick to one art and then when i become a black belt start thinking about branching off into other arts maybe depending on what i still feel towards my current art.

The only trouble is... Which art do i start???

I have so far been ALOT more interested in Karate due to the strikes and Kata which i think are the best in the world. But to be quite hounest the teacher is stupid. He seems to lack in control and bullies alot of students. The teacher from the Aikido club on the other hand is alot better, Hes alot more down to earth and respectable, He also treats he students with alot of respect.
Only trouble is im not as keen on Aikido as an Art compared against Karate.

I might be moving away in a years time to University so if i do then i would be changing teachers anyway.

Hmmm the desision continues for now...

Thanks all for your most considerate views.

Mike Williams
5th October 2003, 18:45
Originally posted by S.Jubei
the teacher is stupid. He seems to lack in control and bullies alot of students. The teacher from the Aikido club on the other hand is alot better, Hes alot more down to earth and respectable, He also treats he students with alot of respect.

Well, for me, that would answer the question right there. Feeling comfortable with your teacher and fellow students is just about THE most important thing, IMO. After all, you're going to be trusting your wellbeing to these folks.

Cheers,

Mike

Brian Owens
5th October 2003, 21:03
Originally posted by S.Jubei
But to be quite hounest the teacher is stupid. He seems to lack in control and bullies alot of students. The teacher from the Aikido club on the other hand is alot better, Hes alot more down to earth and respectable, He also treats he students with alot of respect.

Listen to your inner voice. If your instincts are telling you that one teacher is a bully, then turn away.

If you've seen the original "Karate Kid" movie then you know the kinda of teacher you want (Mr. Miyagi) vs. the kind you don't want (Cobra Kai). That's just a fictional portrayal, of course, but it makes a good point.

If you have to wait until you go away to school to find a good karate teacher, then you wait.

S.Jubei
6th October 2003, 01:36
My heart is telling me that i should do Aikido due to the teacher.
But another part of my heart wants to do Karate.
If i start karate then i will be moving away in 1 year so ill change teacher soon enough anyway.
Or do you think 1 year with this current teacher will be a bad idea?

Thanks

Qasim
6th October 2003, 02:47
Originally posted by S.Jubei
.....Or do you think 1 year with this current teacher will be a bad idea?....

Why would you waste a year of your time with someone who you know is a bad teacher? Take the Aikido class, get good instruction, build a solid base and enjoy.

larsen_huw
21st November 2003, 12:27
Originally posted by Pyriander
Another teacher ?
Hi everybody.
Is your town that that you have only one Karate teacher that you coul reach ?
Maybe you could find another club or Dojo around ?
What I would sugest if you have or will once have the option, is to try Wado-Ryu Karate, because this style may match quite good with aikido-there are all the punches and kicks of course, but the blocks are not as hard and "using force against force" like in shotokan Karate but are (or should be) more evasive.
I am actually learning Karate and want to add some aikido training, and due to what I hear from my brother (aikidoka) it may be also a good idea for a better self defense; because of the most used attack you train to defend : in karate you train more actions against straight punches and kicks
aikidokas train to defend many contact attacks.

André Dörnemann

P.S. If you don´t like your teacher I think it could really spoil a part of they joy and benefit you could gain from martial arts for your life.
André Dörnemann

hmmmmm .....

Methinks some sort of automated spammer. That's twice exactly the same post has gone up from this user.

Maybe a little word in a Moderator's ear is needed ....

rinpoche
21st November 2003, 18:45
My heart is telling me that i should do Aikido due to the teacher.

Well that sounds pretty clear that you should be doing Aikido, unless you're the kind of person whose heart always leads him in teh wrong direction.

In the end it is not the art it's the practitioner that makes a martial art "good". A good teacher is invaluable. I personally sought out my teacher of the past 8 years and have done everything I could to train with him.

You should explore a lot of different arts, but your path will most likely be more productive if you focus on one at a time. It's hard to separate what you do, I cross train in arts I find compatible with what I do, but even then it's hard to keep each pure.

I had a friend who is a practitioner of kung fu. He decided to take up aikido, but kept finding himself reverting to aikido. His teacher kept yelling, "no kung-fu Alex". And this is after many years of training.

Trust me - if you want to get really good at something, focus on it. When you internalize the skills - crossing over will be easier.

Pyriander
21st November 2003, 19:51
Methinks some sort of automated spammer. That's twice exactly the same post has gone up from this user.

hmmmmm........
and methinks that you may be a little little bit to fast with your judgement ?!
Was nothing more that I wanted to reply to this Thread but accidently
(that was my first post, so thanks for the welcome)I confused the buttons for new thread and new post. I also added this Information to the opend THREAD (now knowing what that means)and asked for deleting it, what you should have seen, when you looked properly ?
Anyway, I asked for deleting the wrong thread and copied my words to the place, where the belonged to, so it should be not that surprise that the words are similar, isn´t it ? Well now are both post of me erased, but by you quoting my post it may be read anyway.

@THREAD
The teacher is an important issue, maybe the most important, but the art you practise should also be to your liking ? And aikido and karate are in some aspects of the way you train quite different.
This is why I would say, that it´s not only the teacher, and if you have enough time and energy (I mean really a lot of both)it is possible to do more than one art.
Why not trying it ?

I would be interested what S.Jubei now does, maybe he could post that again ?

Best greetings,

André Dörnemann

shotofan
22nd November 2003, 00:54
One thing I think you should think about, is why are you trainning? Self defense or self improvment. If it is self improvment I would go with Aikido. Don't get me wrong, aikido is in my opinion from what I read and learned, to be very good for defense.

But if you are looking for good strong strikes I would say study some thing like Shotokan, Goju Ryu etc. But I agree that training with a teacher you think is a bully is a waste of your money, and worst, your time and energy. Don't short change your self.

edg176
22nd November 2003, 06:23
I second what MarkF said. Judo is a great compliment to aikido, since you actually get in there and work with a resisting opponent. Striking is good too, but I think you'll find that the type of striking done in shotokan (based on tension) will work against what you are trying to do in aikido, which is based on relaxation.

In any event, it's been my experience that its WAY easier to learn to strike after you learn to grapple. Going the other way is hard, because its possible to be a decent karate striker and be so stiff that you're hopeless at grappling. You want to learn the grappling first if you have a choice.

A year is plenty of time to do both aikido and judo and learn to fall properly, which is underrated. No matter what style you practice, sometimes you end up slipping and falling--best to do it right and not get hurt.

What did you mean by karate katas being "best in the world?" I was a little confused about that.

Finally...if the guy is a bully, stay the heck away. In my experience, whether you want it to or not, the personality of the instructor rubs off on you after a while. I'm assuming, of course, that you don't want to become a bully.

larsen_huw
25th November 2003, 11:33
Originally posted by Pyriander
hmmmmm........
and methinks that you may be a little little bit to fast with your judgement ?!


Yeah, it would appear so.

I'd still do exactly the same if a new user posted exactly the same post twice in different threads.

I never told John to delete anything. I just told him what I beleived and he should take a look and judge for himself.

JAMJTX
30th November 2003, 19:59
I transitioned from Karate to Aikido and did both while starting in Aikido. I had a bit of advantage, because my karate style - Motobuha Shito Ryu - exposed me to some Aikido. Shogo Kuniba used his knowledge of Aikido and other arts to interpret the Shito Ryu kata. He evntually created what is now called Kuniba Ryu Goshindo.
When I started doing pure Aikido, it was quite difficult. People used to look at my stances and ask what style of karate I train in.
It is hard to Aikido technique properly if you instinctively rely on karate postures and movements. It was also very hard to go back to Karate class after having an Aikido teacher correct away the Karate habits.
Now, in Aikido class, I often ask new students what syle of karate they practiced. I can tell by the way they stand and move.

It can be a difficult transition and would be even harder for someone new to the arts to do both at the same time.