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Nathan Scott
3rd October 2003, 06:05
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Kendoguy9
3rd October 2003, 08:53
Hey Nathan,

Warning! I cannot read kanji very well so I might be way off base. Any kanji literate people who want to help me out, please do.

http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/eimei.html

In the year 1903 there is a Harada (I think) and it mentions he went to America for the President. I think it also says he was a teacher at the Sendai police? It also says he had a kyojudairi? Again my kanji skill sucks (actually so does my Japanese) so I could be reading this wrong. Either way this list is a pretty good resource for notable Daito-ryu people. I think the site is run by one of the dojos under Kondo sensei, so I trust the content.

peace,

Nathan Scott
6th October 2003, 19:15
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Joseph Svinth
7th October 2003, 02:48
MOUNTAIN TRIPS COST MORE (1920)

Charles A. Parry, in writing of a walking trip in Japan, stopped
at a tea house between Ikao and Haruna. He continues: "Four men soon came up bearing two of the small conveyances called kagos, which are light, open litters with wicker roofs on which the traveler's light baggage is carried. With the kago-men I had a little chat on the question perennially interesting to all men: 'How's business?' One said it takes five hours to go from Ikao temple to Haruna temple, and three to return. The charge is $2.20 for two men. Last year it was $1.40.

Despite the increase, the men have more customers in the fall of 1919 than they had last autumn. This primitive conveyance is sufficiently costly; but there is a still "higher collar" conveyance, the Chee-ay-ah, or true palan-quin, with which, for the privilege of being able to loll at full length and of having four coolies close to your person all the time, you pay $4.20.

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ok/kiowa/newspapers/mar1920.txt

***

Neither British Library nor Library of Congress list the book that Stan Pranin mentions. So, is it in the Diet Library? One hopes, as the first step will be to find a copy of the book Stan mentions. Presumably, some biographical details work their way into the text, and then there are places to start looking.

***

Q -- Is he British or American? Stan's encyclopedia says he's British, but most of the aiki sites say American. I'm inclined to trust Stan.

***

Wonder if he is any relation to this Dr. Charles Parry: "johnsonii: named for Joseph Ellis Johnson (1817-1882), an early Mormon settler at St. George, Utah who in the spring of 1874 played host to Dr. Charles Parry and has been described as a 'pioneer publicist, herbalist and horticulturist' (ref. Sclerocactus johnsonii)" http://www.calflora.net/botanicalnames/pageH-L.html , http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/94winter/orcutt.htm , http://www.gcrg.org/bqr/14-2/white.html . Probably not.

Joe

Nathan Scott
7th October 2003, 03:19
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the tips!

The Eimeiroku clearly says that Parry was dispatched from America (Beikoku) to Japan to teach English. It also says he went back to America to report to President Roosevelt, which doesn't make as much sense if he was British. But aside from that, I can't say for sure.

I don't know why I didn't think to check Stan's encyclopedia. Here is what he has on Parry (nothing on Harada):


Charles A. Parry

(23 September 1869-25 March 1949). B. Calcutta of British parents. Probably the first foreigner to have ever studied DAITO-RYU JUJUTSU. Parry's name was recorded in pencil in roman script in the EIMEIROKU of Sokaku TAKEDA in 1905 in Sendai. Teacher of English for many years in various parts of Japan. Also translated a book from French into English, entitled "Military Japan" c. 1910 that contained detailed information on the Japanese army and navy of the late Meiji period. Died in Fujisawa near Yokohama.

It does say that his parents were British, but does not say whether he every resided in America. There is no mention of him meeting Roosevelt and telling him about DR (which is why Harada was sent to Roosevelt - how else would Roosevelt had heard of Sokaku?), which is interesting.

Maybe the Eimeiroku entry is wrong (which lists him in 1903 in the standard compilation list, btw)?

I've never heard of that book. It must be around somewhere.
Hmmm,

Ellis Amdur
8th October 2003, 03:32
I have an acquaintance, who would probably be peeved were I to mention his name, who did some research on Parry. To the best of my memory, he did not find out any more about what Parry learned - or how deeply he studied Daito-ryu - but he did manage to locate his landlady in Yokohama, a very elderly woman (some 20 years ago) and collected a few reminiscences about his character (nothing remarkable in the account, as I recall), and visited his grave.

Best

Ellis Amdur

L-Fitzgerald
8th October 2003, 19:37
I recall nformation about Parry meeting Takeda and that Harada did travel to Washington being mentioned during a Daito Ryu seminar with Roy Goldberg and his Sensei [whose name escapes me for the moment]

kenkyusha
8th October 2003, 21:41
Originally posted by L-Fitzgerald

Roy Goldberg and his Sensei [whose name escapes me for the moment]

Kiyama Sensei.

Be well,
Jigme

L-Fitzgerald
9th October 2003, 11:47
didn't have my notes handy............

cxt
26th March 2004, 16:19
As I recall, as goes the story, Takeda once used his arts to fling a large American about a train.

The American later reported the encounter in which a small man used a "fighting art" to take out a larger man.

As the story goes this American (can't recall the name) became a student of Takeda.

Same guy later played a role in bringing jujutsu/judo teachers to Teddy Roosevelts White House for a demo.

Question:

I wonder how long it will be before somebody steps foreward claimiing to be part of a Pre-War American branch of Daito Ryu?

With the American guy as link between Takeda and the here and now??

What do you think?

Anyone want to start putting down a bet???

Chris Thomas

glad2bhere
26th March 2004, 16:35
Dear Chris:

Actually I have heard that anecdote regarding a number of arts and revolving around encounters in a train station, on a train, in a do-jo, on the street and at a seminar. The individuals have been variously identified as a "visitor", a member of a foreign military (such as a sailor on pass), a member of the US military (both LEO and not), a volunteer at a demo and so forth. I don't doubt that such an encounter might have been possible, I am just not sure it would have been likely. Anyone? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

kenkyusha
26th March 2004, 17:04
This one seems somewhat legit though (multiple independent sources have varified it)... geez, it probably is only a matter of time until some whackjob (means founder) makes such claims... :rolleyes:

Be well,
Jigme

(dang, the politics in Aikijujutsu sure is fun to watch!!)

Walker
26th March 2004, 20:30
Are you talking trash about my great great grandfather the Right Honorable Col. J. P. Samual R. Johosophat Esq. the great adventurer and raconteur? :nono:

Cady Goldfield
26th March 2004, 21:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
As far as Daito-ryu opportunists trying to claim lineage to delegates sent to America in Hoover's time, that is something I was also concerned about (and surprised that it hadn't come up yet). We actually have a thread here about this subject, and I was hesitant to post about it publicly lest our McAiki franchise demographic gets any new ideas on how to defraud the public.


It is a fact, though that *jujutsu* was brought to America during the Theodore Roosevelt administration. That is well documented that a jujutsu club was started at Harvard University as a result, and Roosevelt himself had jujutsu lessons in the White House.

But Daito-ryu? I don't think so!

Chris Li
26th March 2004, 22:31
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
It is a fact, though that *jujutsu* was brought to America during the Theodore Roosevelt administration. That is well documented that a jujutsu club was started at Harvard University as a result, and Roosevelt himself had jujutsu lessons in the White House.

But Daito-ryu? I don't think so!

FWIW, the person who introduced Roosevelt to Judo was Isamu Takeshita - a student of Sokaku Takeda and Morihei Ueshiba. Not only that, but Takeshita actually demonstrated Aikibudo to the general public across the USA in the mid 1930's.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
26th March 2004, 23:38
Yes, I've read about that too, Chris. But I don't believe that the jujutsu at Harvard was DR, and I don't think that the judo/jujutsu Roosevelt was taught was DR derived.

Here's a good EJMAS piece you'll enjoy if you haven't already read it (I've had it bookmarked for a couple of years!).

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm

Cady Goldfield
28th March 2004, 21:12
Just after I posted that last post, I got bounced out of E-Budo due to what looks like the system having gone kaput. I meant to add a few more comments:

According to the records, it Yoshitsugu Yamashita who actually taught Roosevelt judo at the White House. Yamashita was famous for his later match with a wrestler almost twice his size, at Roosevelt's request, at the U.S. Naval academy in Annapolis, MD. Yamashita won with an arm bar and was got a teaching job the academy as a result.

Also, to further my thoughts about what Roosevelt learned in the way of jujutsu, I am not certain that he ever got Daito-ryu training. I do know that he heard about Daito-ryu and Takeda from the famous "train incident" with the American Charles Parry, and that Roosevelt subsequently asked for a demo. Sokaku Takeda sent one of his students -- a police officer (Shinzo Harade) who came and gave an impressive demo. No doubt he taught Roosevelt a few "jiujitsu tricks" (as they were called then). But it was Parry who became his fulltime student, not AFAIK, Roosevelt.

I'll dig a bit more and see what turns up. Joe Svinth will no doubt beat me to it. :)

Chris Li
28th March 2004, 21:36
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
[B]Yes, I've read about that too, Chris. But I don't believe that the jujutsu at Harvard was DR, and I don't think that the judo/jujutsu Roosevelt was taught was DR derived.

I don't think so either, it's just interesting that DR (or a DR related art) was actually exposed to the US mainland that early (although I don't think much came of it).

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
28th March 2004, 21:53
Considering how few people practice DR in the US (and anywhere else) now, I am inclined to agree with you that not much came of it.

But those who have sought it out and are studying it must certainly be aware of the treasure they hold.

Chris Li
28th March 2004, 21:59
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Considering how few people practice DR in the US (and anywhere else) now, I am inclined to agree with you that not much came of it.

But those who have sought it out and are studying it must certainly be aware of the treasure they hold.

I meant that not much came from that particular exposure. There's actually a fair amount of DR in the US these days, if you look around.

Best,

Chris

Ellis Amdur
28th March 2004, 23:27
An acquaintance of mine did extensive research on Parry - but he has always been very close with what he finds and the only thing I recall is that he managed to locate Parry's landlord in Yokohama - sometime in the late 1970's, I believe - a little old lady. I may be mistaken, but I have a faint recollection that Parry's grave is also located in Yokohama

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

Cady Goldfield
29th March 2004, 00:15
Chris, what do you consider to be "a fair amount"? 100? If so, I'd agree with that. I'm speaking in relative terms regarding the paucity of DR practitioners - particularly in comparison to what are considered mainstream arts (e.g. aikido, karate, kendo). If you get to the specific scions of S. Takeda, (i.e. Sagawa, Horikawa, Takuma, et al.) the numbers are much smaller than that which is considered the main line of descent.

Ellis, I wonder whether that landlady took any interesting Parry stories to her grave?

Chris Li
29th March 2004, 01:54
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Chris, what do you consider to be "a fair amount"? 100? If so, I'd agree with that. I'm speaking in relative terms regarding the paucity of DR practitioners - particularly in comparison to what are considered mainstream arts (e.g. aikido, karate, kendo). If you get to the specific scions of S. Takeda, (i.e. Sagawa, Horikawa, Takuma, et al.) the numbers are much smaller than that which is considered the main line of descent.

Well, it's all relative, isn't it? There are fewer than Aikido, but more, than, say, hundreds of other Japanese arts which aren't widely practiced outside of Japan.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
29th March 2004, 02:53
Back to Charles Parry, I haven't been able to turn up much more information on him. Stanley Pranin's Aikido Journal has a bit, and several websites seem to parrot the same small piece of info.

I'm going to dig into some Roosevelt materials I have and see what kinds of references, there might be on that end.

cxt
29th March 2004, 18:57
Cady

Not that you have not already thought of it, but you might check the Kodokan.

Seems to me that I recall the Judo HQ having some info on the whole TR/White House demo.

Chris Thomas

Nathan Scott
30th March 2004, 01:25
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Cady Goldfield
30th March 2004, 01:45
Fine with me, Nathan. Sorry to have dragged this thread off topic! But, early jj/DR in the US seems to be a recurring theme. :D

And, thanks for the Kodokan idea, Chris. I actually did read a number of judo and jujutsu websites that had provided information borrowed from the Kodokan site.

Nathan Scott
12th April 2004, 21:13
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Nathan Scott
15th April 2004, 01:12
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