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couch
3rd October 2003, 19:25
A new student has joined out martial arts school. He trained where I did for 8 years. I was happy to see him switch out of what I had learned, and I approached him to welcome him. This is our conversation we had:

Couch: "Hey, my Sifu told me that you trained at studio X, I was there also..."

New Student: "Yah...I was there for 8 years. I'm only 15 you know. They had to put me in the adult class...they had no choice because my skill was too good for the kids class. You see these nunchuku's? They were a Japanese weapon, and then the Chinese stole them. My dad trained with the Masters of (past school), and he knew them when they were Misters...not Masters... So Dummy's over there...we were going to get one. My dad's used one. When you hit it, it rotates behind you and you have to dodge it...you can even put metal objects on it...etc."

I couldn't get a word in edgewise until we heard the gong, and I had to jump into class. Being a senior student, and teaching part time, I was wondering how to deal with people like this. He really believes that the past art we learned was and IS superior. He talks about it all the time...showing what he *could have* done. My classmate even noticed how he was adding in all these counters from our other style, and not sticking to the technique.

I know that an old proverb would state that the Art will take care of everything...but in the meantime, how would you teachers/students deal with this?

Thanks.

Ron Rompen
3rd October 2003, 22:47
Make him uke :)

A LOT :p

With your best senior student :D

kage110
4th October 2003, 13:44
Your young man needs a lesson in ettiquete. Making him uke is one thing but perhaps it is worth having a talk to him in the tones of, 'as a senior grade I am telling you to shut up and listen!' followed by an explanation that if he is going come along to class he is there to study your art and has to stick to the programme. Tell him that if he doesn't like it he can leave and,as far as you are concerned, if his previous art is so superior he can go right back to it.

Follow this up by asking him to choose a window and when he asks 'why?' inform him that he will leave through it if he doesn't do what he is told.:D

shotofan
4th October 2003, 20:03
Kage LOL LOL!!!!!!!!!:toast:

Mitch Saret
6th October 2003, 23:38
It's simple. He can like or not like the technique, ha may or may not choose it if he actually had to use it...his choice. However, he is now in this dojo, and it is a technique of this style/system, and that's what he has to do, as shown.

Otherwise it's like bringing world history into a U.S. History class. Not that anything was wrong with his previous system...at least that's what you would tell him, whether their is or not, but you are here learning this system now.

I have had several students come from another style with no problems. I have had one student with no training but actually has had several street altercations as a teen. He was bad mouthing some techniques as they were something he wouldn't use, and so forth. I had to tell him that I didn't care if he used it or not, that wasn't the point. He had to learn the technique in order to get the principles behind it. He left.

Rogier
7th October 2003, 06:56
I can only agree with the opinions posted above..

He is training in your dojo, training your style. He will either shut up, listen to what the teacher says, do the techniques he's taught or leave the dojo and go back to where he came from.

He's a junior... If he's been with the dojo a long time and his technique has advanced well enough he can start adding his own thing...

Keep a tight reign on these kind of people... they will slowly poison the attitude of your other students!

MarkF
7th October 2003, 08:38
I've had "graded" students from fringe organizations come in with attitudes due to their ranks. I've had success with having shiai practice and having the "black belts" fight a couple of my sankyu. They didn't come back either.


Mark

BULLDOG
7th October 2003, 12:49
Hello,

Add me to the list that agrees with that compliance / respect sometimes has to be physically induced.

Respect is the common unifying thread in all that we do regardless of style or organization. At least it should be!

A question I wish to ask you all is this:
Recently our head instructor has decreed that no black belt can engage in kumite or self-defense with any student that is not a black belt.
DO you have a similar protocol at your dojo?
WHAT is your dojo’s protocol in regards to this subject?
ANY suggestion?

Personally, with this new policy my actual training at this dojo will go now to zero. I teach here 3 days a week – still pay tuition - dojo is all kids with very few adults – try to insert my old school/ previous traditional teachings here at this new eclectic school and it’s received with tolerance - IT FEEL’s LIKE a JOB – NOT FUN – NOT MARTIAL ART”S!!!!*$@**&#_@!@_)#&$##.

Now that I got that off my chest, I look forward to your response.

PS. I have placed this school on a time frame that if things for my own ppersonal satisfaction does not improve by 2/2004 - I am out of here.

Thank you

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

gendzwil
7th October 2003, 15:05
Recently our head instructor has decreed that no black belt can engage in kumite or self-defense with any student that is not a black belt.
That's not a good rule in my opinion. Beginners learn very little by sparring with each other. They learn the most by sparring with better people, ideally with the sensei. In kendo we have a section of class called jigeiko, free practice - anyone can practice with anyone else. The smart students always line up to get a chance to practice with the sensei. If we have a visiting sensei we are told - make sure you practice with him, you'll learn a lot and its rude if you don't.

Yojimbo558
9th October 2003, 06:29
Hi Kenton,

From what I saw of your post, the kids young...and they often wind up having the egos where they feel a need to justify their expertise...especially when starting over in a new system.

This isn't to excuse what they are doing...but I've dealt with them in a few manners. When they avoid doing the technique our way...I point out that this is kata not henka and that for kata it has to be done this way...and if they insist upon doing it their way instead. I'll phrase it in a manner ( not hostile ) but asking, you seem to be having trouble understanding the technique, what are you having trouble with.

If this tactic doesn't work, I have them as someone else stated become Uke. If their inclusion of their art becomes out right disrespectful, I have them sit out and watch rather than participate. I've only done this a few times and haven't had to repeat it since they hate watching everyone and not participating.

In only one instance did I have an extremely obnoxious kid apply to join my class. Who just loved informing me in a loud enough manner for everyone to hear just how good he was and how fortunate I and my students would be to have him.

I told the kid that I thought it was great that he understood that when wanting to go to a new school that he take a look at it. And that it was great to see that he understood that just because he entered a school it didn't mean that he was obligated to join. I then added that I also thought it was great that he understood that just because he thought he might be interested in joining...it didn't mean that I was obligated to take him.

This last statement took him & his Dad by surprise. After talking further, I thanked them for taking a look at our school and left to continue to teach class. I overheard the Father tell his kid, next time watch your mouth, you blew this one.

You've got to weigh a monthly fee vs. the potential disruption active disrespect would have on your students. In this one case, it was good for the students to see that standards didn't merely reflect the manner in which their techniques were performed but their ettiquette as well.

Just my 2 cents :)

Eric L. Bookin

BULLDOG
9th October 2003, 12:19
Hello Neil,

Thank you for your response.

I agree with you in regards to the value for all participants when black belts train with kyu ranks.

How this situation has evolved is that an 18-year ole black belt has for a while demonstrated little control during class. This young gentleman is a great person and I enjoy his company and respect him for all the obstacles that he has had to overcome, in and out of the dojo, but he has had a history of no control. This black belt performed a technique on a kyu rank and broke his arm. The green belt that suffered this fracture should have performed a better break fall. To advance to green belt in this system, one must perform break falling with a degree of proficiency. In this system, break falling is only taught with any degree of proficiency by me. Now that sounds egotistical, but it’s true. No mats were utilized. The dojo floor is concrete with carpeting over it, very little padding.

Bottom line is this = . I do not blame the students, not the green or 18-year old black belt. They where following the example that has been given to them by their Hanshi. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

Thank you again for your input.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

Rogier
9th October 2003, 12:27
at some point if the same person is constantly injuring other students then the problem is with the student, not the teacher.

At that point the teacher will need to take action. The most severe option might be to let the person go..

kage110
9th October 2003, 12:36
At that point the teacher will need to take action. The most severe option might be to let the person go..

...after you have administered a sound thrashing, of course!:D

Rogier
9th October 2003, 12:38
that would be fun :D

but I don't think it would be of much use. As a teacher you need to set an example so if you are going to expel a person for the reason of constant no control situation, then you cannot go and beat that person up.... that would be lack of control on your side

BULLDOG
9th October 2003, 12:42
Hello Rogier,

This is true.

The course of action that you suggested is the proper one.

Regrettably it will not happen because this 18 year old has the greatest potential of opening another dojo for the head instructor.

It is a shame that it takes a broken arm for me to make a decision.

Thank you for you input.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

kage110
9th October 2003, 13:33
that would be fun

but I don't think it would be of much use. As a teacher you need to set an example so if you are going to expel a person for the reason of constant no control situation, then you cannot go and beat that person up.... that would be lack of control on your side

I was thinking more along the lines of rubber, leather and gas-masks, but that is obviously just a product of my warped mind...:D

Seriously though, you are right. If someone is out of control in any fashion within the confines of the dojo and they won't take a telling you have to get rid of them. If the person is really worth the time and effort you could try taking them away from the dojo and discuss the issue (perhaps over a pint or two) in an equal-to-equal way rather than as teacher-to-student. If they still don't get it once they are back in the dojo, give them the boot.

With the youing guy in question I am rather afraid that any amount of talking will have no effect. What might work is if he runs into someone bigger and nastier than him who gives him a real fright but this could just as easily end in disaster. Hopefully, if an few years, he will grow out of his attitude, but there is no guarantee of that. He may be a nice guy but that doesn't stop him from being a bad martial artist too.

gendzwil
9th October 2003, 14:58
Originally posted by kage110
With the youing guy in question I am rather afraid that any amount of talking will have no effect.
Ah. Shodan disease.

StanLee
9th October 2003, 15:24
Originally posted by gendzwil
Ah. Shodan disease.

What are the symtoms?

Yojimbo558
9th October 2003, 22:33
Hi there,

If you've got someone who's consistently hurting people that is a defininte lack of control. This can cause the junior students to leave if they perceive that their safety is secondary to boosting someone's ego over the fact that they might or might not open a dojo at some future date.

The important thing to remember is that negative things impact the community's memories, far easier than good things. Do you want to risk having either your students losing faith in you do to this person's constant abuse with out ramifications or risk the community identifying your school as being excessive or abusive off of the actions of one bad apple?

You've got a fork in the road, and one path could lead to your losing current or potential students if this kid is not either brought under control or allowed to remain out of control.

Eric L. Bookin

gendzwil
10th October 2003, 14:19
Originally posted by StanLee
What are the symtoms?
- a seeming need to "win" every exercise or sparring drill
- the absolute conviction that he knows everything about his martial art
- the absolute conviction that he knows almost everything about every other martial art

kage110
10th October 2003, 14:37
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by StanLee
What are the symtoms?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


- a seeming need to "win" every exercise or sparring drill
- the absolute conviction that he knows everything about his martial art
- the absolute conviction that he knows almost everything about every other martial art

I would add:
-using way to much power/speed to prove he is the toughest person in the dojo:mad:

Steve Williams
10th October 2003, 17:00
Most people suffer from mild shodan disease.......

The vast majority are "cured" after/during the first lesson after they attain shodan ;)


Its the sad muppets that are never cured that you have to worry about.

kage110
10th October 2003, 18:03
We have one, who is now a 3rd dan, who has reoccurring shodan-itis and occasionally gets a little wild and breaks people. He isn't as bad as he used to be but I avoid him as much as possible (I do not want to be his next 'victim'.:(

couch
14th October 2003, 18:34
I enjoyed the posts! Thanks much. I really like the idea of asking the student if he doesn't understand the technique. It's a really nice subtle way of making your point.

Thanks to all!