Cross training in Aikido and Kendo [Archive]

Paul Kerr

7th October 2003, 16:08

Hi Folks,
I posted this over at the kendoworld forums, and Charlie Kondek reminded me that it would be a good idea to ask here as well (thanks Charlie):

Hi Folks,

I'm a newbie to kendo, having just taken it up and have a couple of questions. I have trained in Aikido since 1989 (and will continue to do so) and also trained 5 years in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (1995-2000) - so I have at least a basic familiarity with sword work, albeit only with bokken and iaito, never shinai.

Is there anyone out there who perhaps also has some background in either Aiki-ken or TSKSR (or indeed any other related art) who would be "wise" to some typical hurdles or challenges that I might expect in kendo?

My first, limited, impression is that the footwork is radically different from what I have been used to, as is the ma-ai (due to the length of the shinai). I also notice that my hip placement is not as it should be (having a tendency to sometimes turn). The re-learning process will certainly be interesting and challenging for me .

If any of the wiser heads here have experiences to share on this matter I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks.

Paul

John J. Montes

7th October 2003, 20:40

Hello Mr. Kerr...I am very interested in this topic as I am seriously considering studying kendo as well. I've been training for some time like you and feel that very soon I'll take the plunge...

However, how has your training affected the more subtler aspects to Aikido like commitment, intensity and your ability to "take the opening"?

Charlie Kondek

7th October 2003, 20:45

Hi, Paul! Hope to see a good discussion. I myself have no knowldege of aikido but would like to hear more about how it does and does not blend with kendo.

DCPan

7th October 2003, 21:15

Originally posted by Paul Kerr
Is there anyone out there who perhaps also has some background in either Aiki-ken or TSKSR (or indeed any other related art) who would be "wise" to some typical hurdles or challenges that I might expect in kendo?

My first, limited, impression is that the footwork is radically different from what I have been used to, as is the ma-ai (due to the length of the shinai). I also notice that my hip placement is not as it should be (having a tendency to sometimes turn). The re-learning process will certainly be interesting and challenging for me .

Well, for me, the hip placement was a big one.

Another one was the habit of backing up to draw the opponent in.

My first tournament, I lost by going out of bounds twice...*sigh*.

Getting used to not using the heel again...

As for Aikido blending or not blending with Kendo...

One of my kendo senseis actually started kendo at the encouragement of his aikido teacher to try kendo to "further" his understanding of aikido.

Considering that he was on the 10th WKC Team, he must be doing pretty well.

I think it depends on the person when it comes to training different arts...some can compartmentalize and blend, others just don't do so well.

A common theme is though that the practitioner does have a significant background in one before trying the other.

:D

StanLee

8th October 2003, 07:15

I started kendo at the request of my aikido and kenjutsu sensei also.

Paul Kerr

8th October 2003, 08:29

However, how has your training affected the more subtler aspects to Aikido like commitment, intensity and your ability to "take the opening"?

John,
I haven't trained kendo long enough to answer your question in any useful way I'm afraid.

However, one thing I did notice almost immediately was the intensity of attack and "aggression" (I do not mean that in a gross, negative way). The intensity/commitment of attack in some areas of aikido is a discussion that has been thoroughly debated elsewhere, so I won't delve into it here. It is, however, a very different experience to stand across from someone who will definitely try to hit you (kendo), from someone who probably will not (aikido). I've found that very refreshing.

The other thing I'm really noticing is just how crappy my handling of a shinai is. I thought I had a reasonable basic ability to wield a bokken and that would transfer to using a shinai. Not so :), it seems like a different animal.

I'm a great believer in cross-training myself, so I am sure that my aikido can only benefit from my exposure to kendo.

Charlie Kondek

8th October 2003, 14:11

Originally posted by StanLee
I started kendo at the request of my aikido and kenjutsu sensei also.

Why, Stan? be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Paul, what's different about the wielding of bokken in aikido and shinai in kendo? Also, have you done kendo no kata yet?

StanLee

8th October 2003, 14:43

Charlie,

Inaba Sensei of the Shiseikan dojo at the Meji Jingu (my sensei's teacher) does the same thing with his senior students. The choice he gives them is either Kendo or Boxing.

I think he asks the females to do kendo and the guys boxing.

I therefore think that is the first reason why my sensei has asked me to either do kendo or boxing.

The underlying reason could be due to the fact that my sensei (and Inaba sensei) want their students to further understand the concept of maai and maybe the feeling of a "competition" which is usually not sensed in aikido or kenjutsu. I think (from reading the interview with Inaba sensei in aikidojournal.com) that he wants his students to have a feeling of a martial tension whilst practicing.

I also guess that the more fundamental reasons could be better overall body coordination, endurance etc.

For me, I decided to choose kendo because, the reason why I studied with my current sensei is because of the sword and therefore kendo seemed to be the logical choice. But then again, boxing would have taught me how to punch properly and not every attacker would have a shinken or shinai!:D

One of the kendo sensei is also 5th or 6th dan iaido and he was thinking of starting an iaido class before my saturday kendo session. So I may also take that up if I am allowed.

Hope that gives you some insight. Feel free to ask more.

Charlie Kondek

8th October 2003, 15:13

Wow, that's really cool!

Paul Kerr

8th October 2003, 15:31

Stan wrote:

The underlying reason could be due to the fact that my sensei (and Inaba sensei) want their students to further understand the concept of maai and maybe the feeling of a "competition" which is usually not sensed in aikido or kenjutsu. I think (from reading the interview with Inaba sensei in aikidojournal.com) that he wants his students to have a feeling of a martial tension whilst practicing.

That is very interesting indeed - it's certainly an area that I want to explore in my own training.

Charlie,
The main difference I'v noticed thus far in the wielding of the shinai (vs. bokken) is that in TSKSR the men strike does not bring the weapon very far back over the head, but rather the sword rests at an angle against your left tricep. Therefore, the arms do not go quite so far back. Even in the aikiken which I am used to the bokken is never brought further back than 45 degrees over the head - so the BIG movement of the shinai is doing wonders to loosen up my shoulders :).
Also, the extension at the end of a men cut seems to be higher with a shinai (this though may just be my crappy technique)

gendzwil

8th October 2003, 21:35

Once you start with kendo kata you will see that the bokken doesn't go back more than 45 degrees either, although the hands should still come above the head. Hitting your butt with the shinai is just a drill taught to beginners to make their swing big enough. Unfortunately that makes the kata harder to teach as they're used to overswinging.

Paul Kerr

9th October 2003, 06:34

Neil,
I had guessed that the overswing was a drill/teaching aid - and it's a very effective one :). When I was first introduced to TSKSR and also in Aikiken, we never practiced with an overswing. The emphasis, rather, was on getting correct placement over the head from the start. What I'm noticing most is just how much a bigger movement is helping with the extension of my cut. I'm prone to stiff shoulders at the best of times, so this is just wonderful.

Charlie Kondek

9th October 2003, 13:37

Can you tell us a bit more about the footwork differences, Paul?

Paul Kerr

10th October 2003, 07:58

Can you tell us a bit more about the footwork differences, Paul?
_________________

Charlie,
The kendo footwork was (is) totally new to me - the direction of the back foot, the weighting in the legs, the "narrowness" of the stance in a basic (chudan) kamae. In TSKSR and the aikiken I am used to the stance tends to be longer with a, roughly, 70/30 distribution of weight over the front/back foot. Also, the feet tend to rest at a 45 degree angle to one another, and sometimes, in the case of waki-gamae for example, at a very wide angle in a longer, deeper stance.

Fumikomi is still totally alien to me - the mechanics of it aren't anywhere in my muscle memory yet :( .

That's what I've noticed so far. I'm sure there's more though...

StanLee

10th October 2003, 08:41

Paul, just don't stamp too hard on a hard floor.

I bruised my right foot last Saturday like that.:)

In fact one sensei said last week that if one is practicing in the UK where there are no dedicated kendo dojo with a sprung floor, we should always have a heal protector with our bogu.

Charlie Kondek

10th October 2003, 13:37

True dat. A poster here of advanced experience, Hyaku by screen name, has noted that the kendo footwork seems to not make sense but eventually sort of catches up to the footwork he has experienced in the various koryu he has also studied. (I'm paraphrasing, Hyaku, so please correct me if I spin this incorrectly.) He said you don't get that skipping effect like you would in kendo but you do sort of stamp; that is, the foot comes down and the sword follows shortly after. After a time of considerable practice, the differences, if I read Hyaku correctly, sort of disintegrate.

It's funny, I am thinking now of the various kinds of footwork in my own muscle memory. From the kendo footwork, to the shuffling kick-boxing footwork, to the loose and changing judo footwork, to my (very lousy, too much like kendo) iai footwork. I transition between them pretty easily now, I think. (Watch, I'll trip over my hakama at next practice.)

Paul Kerr

10th October 2003, 14:34

Charlie,
That makes a lot of sense - the "sort of stamp" followed by the sword is what more what I'm used to. Kendo is doing wonders at reducing my footwork to the "unconsciously incompetent" stage of the learning loop :)

Stan (indeed anyone),
Any drills or exercises to help me work on my fumikomi in solo practice (i.e. outside of the dojo)? I must admit I am a bit concerned about it - it just LOOKS like something that could cause foot injury if not done correctly. Having said that, why should I worry exclusively about my heels when I've signed up to an art that will have me getting my nads regularly handed to me on a plate for years :D

Charlie Kondek

10th October 2003, 15:12

Originally posted by Paul Kerr
Any drills or exercises to help me work on my fumikomi in solo practice (i.e. outside of the dojo)? I must admit I am a bit concerned about it - it just LOOKS like something that could cause foot injury if not done correctly. Having said that, why should I worry exclusively about my heels when I've signed up to an art that will have me getting my nads regularly handed to me on a plate for years :D

hahaha! If I may: you're probably in a gym? Get on one end of the gym, no shinai, maybe with your hands in the grip or on hips. Shuffle-step forward and fumikomi every few steps. If there is tape on the floor (like for basketball courts) or marks on the floor, fumikomi at each of them. Basically, dash from one end of the gym to the other with fumikomi every few feet. Kiai if you can. So, "Meeeeeee - MEN! *stamp* - eeeeeeeeee - MEN! *stamp* - eeeeee..."

Another thing I do, and I don't think anyone else does this, is get next to a wall. Put your hands in front of you and, in chudan, fumikomi toward the wall, with your hands slapping/pushing the wall at the same your foot hits. This may or may not work for you, it helps me line up my ki-ken-tai-ichi.

DCPan

10th October 2003, 15:23

Originally posted by Paul Kerr

Any drills or exercises to help me work on my fumikomi in solo practice (i.e. outside of the dojo)?

Oh this question brings back memories...:D Plantar fascitis being foremost in my mind :D

This was how I was taught fumikomi very "quickly", as I somehow manage to sneak into bogu without EVER learning fumikomi, so my sensei told my senpai "aoi ikazuchi (blue lightning for your Ranma fans)" to teach me that in ONE night.

Really, it's kind of like doing lunges in the gym, except you break it down in to two separate exercises.

Exercise #1:
Start in chudan.
Raise shinai upto jodan without moving your feet.
Lunge as you bring the shinai down, trying to time the end of the movement with the stomp that occurs at the end of the lunge. It helps to have a target (dummy stand, tire, another person holding up a shinai).

Exercise #2:
Start in chudan.
LUNGE as you raise the shinai upto jodan.
Strike as you strive to bring the left leg forward back to kamae distance.

The first exercise teachs you the fumikomi timing. The second exercise teaches you not to leave your hip behind. Eventually, the two blurs into one....

:D

Paul Kerr

10th October 2003, 17:54

Charlie, David - thank you for the exercises!

gendzwil

10th October 2003, 19:40

Basic fumikomi step drill:

Without shinai, stand in chudan. Pick a spot on the floor that you don't think you can stretch to. Step out and try to land your right foot on that spot. Make sure your hips are square, that you have "kendo hip" (a tilted pelvis such that your butt is back and your gut is forward) and that you are driving the motion by pushing off with your back foot, not stepping out with the right. At extension, your back should be absolutely straight up and down and your right leg should be quite bent. Make sure to land on your whole foot. Draw back, rinse, lather, repeat. After you can land successfully in a very wide stance, stable, back straight and all, on your whole foot, then carry it through: after landing, stand up onto your right foot so that you draw the left leg quickly back into chudan and take a couple more suriashi-style steps forward. If you're doing this right you should find it natural to continue through.

Timing drill (with or without target):

With shinai, stand in chudan. Raise your shinai over the head. Don't move your feet. Start the shinai forward. Still, don't move your feet. When your left hand is in front of your eyes on the way down, do your fumikomi like the first drill. This timing works for most beginners. If you are striking a target, you are aiming to make contact with the right foot and with the shinai at exactly the same time. Listen for the sounds as your feedback. The most common beginners' mistake is to step too soon. As a beginner, your swing is very slow but your step is surprisingly fast. So wait, wait, wait until your hands are forward then step. Most people find this very hard.

DCPan

10th October 2003, 21:05

If you have a friend (more senior than you), you can also do this.

1. Have them place their left foot on your right in-step in kamae. Then ask them to do fumikomi. Feel the way they push off with the left by the contact on your right instep.

2. Get in kamae yourself. Have him/her place their hand on your koshiita (back board of hakama) near the bottom edge. When you are ready, ask them to push. They should push forward and slightly down. That's what the hip motion should feel like.

:D

Chidokan

10th October 2003, 22:15

I use a shinai and two people with juniors to try and get this hip movement going. two assistants stand either side of the junior and hold the shinai at either end. tell the junior to move, and as he does so, pull him forward with the shinai, which is just below halfway down his buttocks. to emphasise the posture balance, repeat the exercise with the shinai placed on the shoulder blades, making sure he doesnt fall over! that should make sure he doesnt cut from the shoulders.
Another way is to use a long rope or obi placed just below the waist. tell the junior to move and cut. If he doesnt use the abdominal muscles he wont go anywhere.
This and more will be in my new MJER book...when I finally get it finished. :rolleyes: Unfortunately it takes five attempts to write an MA book correctly according to my sensei, and I havent finished the first version yet...:eek:

Tim Hamilton

Paul Kerr

11th October 2003, 18:03

Neil, David, Tim - Thanks also. LOTS to work on :)

StanLee

13th October 2003, 07:22

Paul, sorry for not reply to you on time about fumikomi. I never check ebudo at the weekends, it's time for training and eating!:D

But I guess that you have got very good advice from the more advanced kendoka here.

Yes you could cause your right foot some minor bruising if done incorrectly. I think someone once suggested that one should keep the ankle relaxed to reduce the pressure on the foot during stamping.

But apart from that, I guess it a lot better than looking at your own balls on a dinner plate!:D :D

Charlie Kondek

14th October 2003, 13:47

Originally posted by Chidokan
I use a shinai and two people with juniors to try and get this hip movement going. two assistants stand either side of the junior and hold the shinai at either end. tell the junior to move, and as he does so, pull him forward with the shinai, which is just below halfway down his buttocks. to emphasise the posture balance, repeat the exercise with the shinai placed on the shoulder blades, making sure he doesnt fall over! that should make sure he doesnt cut from the shoulders. Another way is to use a long rope or obi placed just below the waist. tell the junior to move and cut. If he doesnt use the abdominal muscles he wont go anywhere.

This and more will be in my new MJER book...when I finally get it finished. :rolleyes: Unfortunately it takes five attempts to write an MA book correctly according to my sensei, and I havent finished the first version yet...:eek:

Tim Hamilton

Excellent! Keep us posted. If ya need a reader...

I can't picture this exercise. You put the obi in FRONT of the person and make him move it with his hips? You put the shinai BEHIND?

Chidokan

15th October 2003, 16:33

yes, use the obi as an anchor to prevent the movement. A tow rope would do as well. So long as you are out of the way of the sword as it swings back over his head! The shinai is used to push the student forward, the people on either side of him need to push together though or it doesnt work very well. try it, you'll see what I mean... dont laugh too much when the guy cant move, it really annoys them!:D

Tim Hamilton