Philosophy Question

[georgec]

I have heard it mentioned at my former dojo that the purpose of MA training is to "defeat the Ego", Can someone tell me what this means?


:look:

Thank you

George C

[Soulend]

One of the considered 'evils' of human character is the ego, along with such things as fear, anger, jealousy, etc. Budo are methods of kirihaku (cutting away at impurities) which are the way we remove these flaws and free ourselves from things like ego and prejudice which restrict us from reaching our full potential as human beings. We grapple with and face our own inadequacies, fears, and frustrations in a codified method in an attempt to destroy these; the chains that inhibit us and hold us back.

Whether one calls this state "enlightenment", satori, or any of a variety of other terms, ultimately the most difficult and important 'opponent' to 'defeat' is oneself, rather than the man facing you across the mat. Once a man has 'defeated' himself, there are few men he cannot best, few situations that can shake him, and no goal he cannot achieve.

At least, that's the rumor. As far as character flaws go, I'm loaded with them and would require several lifetimes to correct them all, methinks ;)

[Rogier]

and yet the funny thing is that for lots of people this is not the way it goes.... their skill grows --- their ego grows..

sad, but true

[fifthchamber]

Hi Rogier..
Not that I'm saying you don't deserve it....But..

and yet the funny thing is that for lots of people this is not the way it goes.... their skill grows --- their ego grows..
Hehe...Says the man with:

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield:Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!
....As his sig line...:D
ONLY JOKING!!;) <ducks>....Real Ego is something far worse than pride in oneself...
Sorry Rogier...Just could'nt resist.:p
Regards..

[Rogier]

damn :D should've seen that one coming :D

[fifthchamber]

Hehe...
It's just my jealousy!.....
Regards...

[mech]

Yes, for to discuss these things one have to have reference base points or a common nomenclature to avoid confusions due to the use of diferent "Lenses" between discusioners.

That leads to a sort of mixed pasta wich is in the end unnuseful and incomprenhsible.

Also avoid play the all time joker, the psycho helps to create a proper ambience for to discuss things that someone could consider worth of time.

Mech
Manuel Ch. A.

[Chuck.Gordon]

Hmm.

Me, I want ego balanced, healthy and functional. Otherwise, things get messy. Ego is integral to the individual. I suspect a lot of ego-cutting comes from poor interpretation of something said in another language by an individual raised and educated in another culture, and the interpreter overlaying his (or her) own cultural and personal philosophical baggage.

A healthy ego doesn't NEED to be cut away. It's the infected, nasty bits that ought to be removed. Sort of like a bad appendix or an abcessed tooth.

Chuck

[Soulend]

Good point. I interpret 'ego' in this case as excessive pride or vanity - with, naturally, a corresponding lack of humility.

[Chuck Clark]

Cousin Chuck, I agree completely. You can't be human without some self-awareness, etc. It is the fearful aspects that breed hatefulness and insecurities, etc. We certainly need to work on these aspects of the ego. Seishin tanren can surely help. Good role models help out also.

You and Emily enjoy your trip and be safe.

[Earl Hartman]

I think that when Westerners use the word "ego" they are translating what the Japanese call "ga", or "self".

In Japan, a person who is full of himself, what an American would call an "egotist", is described as someone who is "ga ga tsuyoi", a "person whose 'I' is strong", that is, a person who is full of himself. Such a person is stubborn and self-centered, cannot listen to instruction, and so is incapable of learning. A person who does things his own way is called someone who practices Ga Ryu, "The School of I".

Japanese budo, viewed as a way of charcter building, or ningen keisei, exists primarily to beat this "I" out of a person, to disabuse someone of the idea that their own personal desires or beliefs are particularly important. This is important from a budo point of view as well as from a societal point of view. An arrogant egotist is despised everywhere, and perhaps even more so in Japan than in the West. As one trains in budo, this empty egotism is beaten out of one; that is, the egotist is shown in the most direct way that he is quite mistaken about how good he is. If he can handle that and learn to train properly, this empty self-regard should, ideally, be replaced by real self-confidence born of experience. All of the good martial artists I know are supremely confident of their abilities, but it is genuine confidence, not empty swagger. They are not braggarts, but they have a real, unshakable belief that they are really very good at what they do. This is not ego, but what a Western fencer I knew called "moral ascendancy" the ability to dominate the enemy by sheer force of will.

I have a friend with whom I practiced kyudo regularly when I lived in Japan. He developed a severe case of releasing too quickly, a habit born of nervousness and "target panic", among other things. It got so bad that he could not prevent himself from releasing the arrow even before he had reached full draw. As a result, he quit doing kyudo, primarily out of shame and embarrassment. He took up calligraphy and has since become a well-regarded calligrapher in his home province (Akita) and has won many prizes and competitions and often gives public demonstrations.

He said that in the beginning he was very nervous and worried that he would not do well, but that now he really believes in his ability and so experiences no nervousness in any competition. That is to say, he has true confidence born of true ability. It seems to me that if could transfer this attitude to kyudo, he would solve his problem quite quickly.

This might qualify as "ego" in the West, but it an absolutely necessary ingredient for a person to be good at anything, including budo.

[mech]

You started good Mr. Gordon then you linked in a strange manner (misundertanding) it sounded like an old priest words, "It's the infected, nasty bits that ought to be removed...

Those cultural aspects should not to be a problem due to the amazing ammount of information available today.

And yes ego doesnt need to be cut away nor destroyed without destroying the person. Definetively is much more than pride or vanity the work for to be done, the only thing I know for sure is that everyone of us have certain ammount of pieces in the big puzzle...

I rather prefer Mr. Gordon explanation linking ego maintain based on Fear, without doubt This is one of the keys... other could be "why I should work ego?" what is supposed to be gained?...


Part of that Fear could come from the statement "I dont want to suffer"... because work on the ego within ourselves can be more painful than fighting your wife just because involves much more than that the whole internal and external relations are implicated.


Mech
Manuel Ch. A.
CCS

[mech]

I liked your intervention Mr. Hartman interesting reference about your friend, simple and valid points.


Question: Wich is the opposite school of Ga Ryu? I mean that one whre the individual is "nullified" and is suitable for to be driven in "masses" like the very example of Japanesse wich blind faith for the Emperor as a "Divine person" the d made many mistakes...?

MECH
Manuel Ch. A.
ccs

[Robinson]

Originally posted by georgec
I have heard it mentioned at my former dojo that the purpose of MA training is to "defeat the Ego", Can someone tell me what this means?


:look:

Thank you

George C

I believe that it is a trace of the Buddhist underpinnings of budo. One of the goals of Buddhist practice is the elimination of the self, meaning ridding oneself of the notion that there is a self apart from the rest of existence.

[georgec]

I believe that it is a trace of the Buddhist underpinnings of budo. One of the goals of Buddhist practice is the elimination of the self, meaning ridding oneself of the notion that there is a self apart from the rest of existence.


What did you say?
:confused:

[Ian McDonald]

I think that we overuse the term Ego. I think the focus should not be on "defeat the ego." That is negative and an impossible task anyway. A foolish waste of time and effort. The key is to work on harmony and superior ability, both in martial techniques and other skills. The right training and study develop humility, compassion and empathy. These qualities along with superior abilities, knowledge and confidence are what I think Budo training is all about as a Way.

[Robinson]

Originally posted by georgec
I believe that it is a trace of the Buddhist underpinnings of budo. One of the goals of Buddhist practice is the elimination of the self, meaning ridding oneself of the notion that there is a self apart from the rest of existence.


What did you say?
:confused:

Sorry, that wasn't very clear was it?

Basically the notion of yourself is a fallacy. The individual person does not exist. The world does exist but it exist only as a whole, the division we percieve are created by our mind to enable us to deal with the world.

One of the better analogies is that of a wave. We are like a wave, which only exists as part of the ocean, to think of the wave as seperate from the ocean is nonsensical. Eliminating the ego is removing the idea that we as a wave are somehow seperate from the ocean.

I hope that is somewhat more clear, although the best explanation I have found is in the writings of Thich Nat Hanh.

[Ian McDonald]

If you don't exist, who sent the message to this forum? Who is the reader of the message? The fallacy is not in our existence. Of course we exist, how can you possibly deny it with a straight face? The problem is the we do not exist alone and separate from the rest of the Universe although most think we do. We are a manifestation of creative and destructive forces; they exist. Not all that exists is material.

So yes, grass hopper, that flower you hold in your hand and smell does indeed exist. It is the very fact of "existence" that makes the Universe. Don't be distracted in your training by treacherous and false paths. Open your eyes and Heart and see the world around you. Absorb it into your bones and your very fabric of being. Then you'll understand the teachings better. Knowledge first, wisdom later. The idea that the self does not exist is a logical fallacy crafted to confuse the mind and help it let go of attachment to any particular world view in order to see the world more clearly. In martial arts training, this is to cultivate MUSHIN, a clear mind, and FUDOSHIN, an immovable mind. If you didn't exist, you couldn't read this.:laugh:

[Chuck Clark]

"mu ga"

Selflessness is a concept many budoka strive for. Is it possible for us to really "lose our self" or our "ego"?

Perhaps what really happens is that we just become less fearful and lose our attachements. We can be human, awake, and aware of all that is around and we are part instead of feeling separate and self-involved.

Could that be ego in a twinkle in the eye of those that appear to be "mu ga"?

(Many of the philosophical concepts connected with Vedic, Taoist, Buddhist, and Zen practices are misunderstood in the West because they continue to be translated into the closest literal meanings in English by people that have no understanding of their true meaning.)

Best regards,

[Robinson]

Originally posted by Ian McDonald
If you don't exist, who sent the message to this forum? Who is the reader of the message? The fallacy is not in our existence. Of course we exist, how can you possibly deny it with a straight face? The problem is the we do not exist alone and separate from the rest of the Universe although most think we do. We are a manifestation of creative and destructive forces; they exist. Not all that exists is material.

So yes, grass hopper, that flower you hold in your hand and smell does indeed exist. It is the very fact of "existence" that makes the Universe. Don't be distracted in your training by treacherous and false paths. Open your eyes and Heart and see the world around you. Absorb it into your bones and your very fabric of being. Then you'll understand the teachings better. Knowledge first, wisdom later. The idea that the self does not exist is a logical fallacy crafted to confuse the mind and help it let go of attachment to any particular world view in order to see the world more clearly. In martial arts training, this is to cultivate MUSHIN, a clear mind, and FUDOSHIN, an immovable mind. If you didn't exist, you couldn't read this.:laugh:


I certainly was trying to avoid sounding nihilistic in my posts. Obviously expressing these ideas in brief English is not my strong point.

[georgec]

Thanks for the posts!

Is this philosophy,"defeating the ego", a part of traditional budo training? Just what should you be learning?

Is it correct for a headmaster to claim his style is a "religion"? Should your sensei refer to your school as a "family"?

BTW:My former style, Kosho Ryu Kempo was taught this way.

[mech]

We are modern men, we strive to be practical, that doesnt mean the tasks would be less difficult

To Hartman Sensei: Conditioning, brain washing and adoctrination are basically universal terms not very different around the world, Ill repeat I liked your post.


To Mc Donald Sensei: your words sounds practical and well oriented, even warm.

Ill remember that "fabric of being" curious term you know? must be of your own harvest good one.

Quote.- "The key is to work on harmony and superior ability, both in martial techniques and other skills. The right training and study develop humility, compassion and empathy. These qualities along with superior abilities..."


Difficult more transparent than this, but since to learn a joint lock is easier than to asimilate higher practical levels of compasion or whatever other, you know big work.


"mu ga"

"Selflessness is a concept many budoka strive for. Is it possible for us to really "lose our self" or our "ego"?" .- Quote Clark

We dont want to loose our selves at all,

Ones rather want to open a channel for to experience the great power and pleasure of "impersonal actions" not for a waited reward, to overcome fear everytime and the the hard asset of be ready to give up our attachments, for every egotism one defeat theres something several times bigger that come to us, sometimes unexpectly.



"Is this philosophy,"defeating the ego", a part of traditional budo training? Just what should you be learning?" Quote.- georgec

Requires constance, templance, courage and humbleness

You Should be learning that theres a little- free- interconected movement that have to be shaped and well rounded for to acomplish desired results, It is your Ego, And other Big movement that you can join at any time working on to the impersonal.


Mech
Manuel Ch. A.
ccs