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John Lindsey
12th October 2003, 03:26
http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20031009084039299

TUBITAK discovered that the blood of Thracian Turks and Japanese people have the same characteristics. TUBITAK gathered blood samples from 900 thousand people in 16 provinces within the framework of its project called “Medical Research and Development,” to reveal the genetic structure and blood map of Turkish people.

As a result of its research, the institution found out that “Hemoglobin-Ankara,” which is found in the blood of Turks, is also present in the blood of the Japanese. Moreover Haemoglobin-UB2, which is in the blood of the Japanese, is also found in the Thracian and Aegean Turks.

Vapour
12th October 2003, 07:13
It's no big deal. Japanese and Turkis belong to Altaic group of language (Mongolian, Manchurian, Korean, and so on). Plus, if you look at the anceint drawing of Turks, they had distictly Mongolian feature.

KhawMengLee
13th October 2003, 15:58
Admiral Cheng Ho of the Chin Dynasty was a turkish eunich. He commanded the chinese fleet(larger than the british and spanish armada combined, with each of its 3 flagships so large you could fit the Nina, Pita and Santa Maria on it's deck). He also founded the port town of Malaca in Malaysia, which is why you have the chinese known as nyonya baba(neo-nee-ya bar-bar), muslim chinese, living there.

StanLee
13th October 2003, 16:18
Yama san! You have read that book (1421) too?

I have a copy signed by the author.

Are you sure that the kendo grading is 9am this sunday morning...

Let me know what your plans are.

Stan

Earl Hartman
13th October 2003, 21:51
Well, the Turks are originally from Central Asia. Anatolia didn't become Turkish until after the defeat of the Byzantines by the Turks at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 (one of the proximate casues of the 1st Crusade, actually). So, as Central Asians, who probably had a ton of Mongol blood in them, the connection isn't so strange.

Vapour
14th October 2003, 00:33
More interesting trivia is that Japanese does not strictly belong to Altaic linguistic group due to its pronounciation structure.

I always suspected Malay/Polynesian link to Japanese language. Does anyone know anything about this?

Daniel Lee
14th October 2003, 01:15
With Japanese being divided into wago/yamato-kotoba (native japanese), kango (chinese-japanese) and gairaigo (japanese loanwords), some yamato-kotoba have been shown to share resemblance with polynesian words. Japanese enjoys the grammatical structure of Altaic languages, orthography from China (perhaps influenced by Korean script too), and lexicon both native and foreign (chinese, korean, polynesian, western etc). Not sure how long ago the borrowing from polynesian languages might have occured though.

Vapour
14th October 2003, 01:30
They weren't borrowed. I suspect that Polynesian related people were the original inhabitants of Japan before overwhelmed by Orientals.

By the way, it is quite common for some Japanese kids to have curly hair which get straighter as they grow up. My sister had one and my uncle's hair was pretty much afro when he was kid. It's much common in Southern blood (Kyushyu, the place of Satuma Hayato). Any info on this?

Jock Armstrong
14th October 2003, 04:16
Racial drift/colonisation has been the noem in Japan for thousands of years. Historians now generelly agree that the Jomon people- stone age hunter gatherers were the first group to enter the Japanese islands some 20,000 years ago [perhaps more]. The Ainu aborigines are now only extant in Hokkaido [as a group] and in the relative "hairiness" of some of the population in general. Apparently the Ainu are not mongolian as such but show many caucasion features. Their relatives live in Sakhalin and Kamchatka. They are the people who the Yamato invaders fought for so long as they expanded out from Kyushu. The Yamato would seem to be a mix of Chinese and Korean people who may well have mixed with polynesian and Indonesian elements who came up from the south. Much early architecture of the Nara period preserved in Shinto temples and the like has a distinctly "tropical" feel to it. Okinawa is even more influenced by the southChina/ SE Asia connection. Afro hair is quite common in the southern areas - People in the north being supposed to be physically bigger [more to do with diet than genetics I suspect- more meat] than the southern part of Japan.. Right wing Japanese will foam at the mouth if you mention these things. Also, Okinawans eat much more meat than the Japanese.

Things guaranteed to kick over a fight;

The curved blade and assymetrical bow may well be Ainu innovations.
Much of the population of Nara and Kyoto has korean roots.[Several Emperors and empresses invited and encouraged Korean craftsmen to settle in Japan in large numbers- including metal workers [swordsmiths].
Many place names in Honshu have Japanised "Ainu" names. Fuji being one.
Apparently Fuji, while fitting Japanese in form has no real meaning. It does have a clear meaning in Ainu however.

Vapour
14th October 2003, 07:58
If you want ultra right winger's mouth really foaming, mention to them that Imperial family's origin is likey to be Korean.

I think something like 70 percent of Japanese nobility during early era of Yamato period claimed Korean Ancestory.

If we can dig up all their imperial tombs, it would become more obvious as articles insides the tomb are suspected to be Korean.

StanLee
14th October 2003, 08:35
The japanese ancestry is sounding more like the British. German, french scandnavian etc...

But very interesting all the same!

larsen_huw
14th October 2003, 09:10
Originally posted by StanLee
The japanese ancestry is sounding more like the British. German, french scandnavian etc...

But very interesting all the same!

What? you mean everyone jumping into bed with their cousins? :D

Or moving to another country, getting their Monarch up the duff and then pretending to be from that country while travelling abroad making embaressing quotes which tarnishes that nations image.

Phil the Greek anyone?

"Hello slitty eyes"

"What, what, looks like that fuse box was put in by an Indian"

"Do you guys still throw spears at each other?"

Still, he's by far and away the funniest member of our Royal Family.

StanLee
14th October 2003, 09:55
Huw, not sure what you meant by your post??

I was mealy saying that over the centuries Britian has been invaded and occupied by people from Europe. E.g. Romans, Normans, invasion and settlement by the Vikings etc.

larsen_huw
14th October 2003, 13:51
Stan,

Just passing comment that most of the Royal families of Europe are blood related after centuaries of interbreeding. Our current Royal family, the 'Windsors' are mainly German, and had to change their name from Saxcoburg to avoid anti-German feelings during the war (can't remember which one).

All this interbreeding does produce some interesting characters, such as Phil the Greek (Prince Phillip/Duke of Edinburugh/Queen's other half) who, as my nickname suggests, isn't actually English, he's a member of the Greek aristocracy, and has a penchant for speaking his mind at times when his mind is less than completely full! :)

StanLee
14th October 2003, 14:04
Got ya!

I understand what you mean. Monday morning confusion was delayed until today... Bit like Garfield (the cat) who hates mondays.

Didn't know that the Duke was greek aristocracy!

Does that mean if he messes up in public again, we'd be expecting to see him in a local Kebab shop soon serving a hot one with extra chili sauce?;) :D

larsen_huw
14th October 2003, 14:09
Originally posted by StanLee
...

Does that mean if he messes up in public again, we'd be expecting to see him in a local Kebab shop soon serving a hot one with extra chili sauce?;) :D

Well,

Remember 'Nick the Greek' from Lock Stock?

That's actually a documentary from 10 years in the future when a certain member of the Royal family has been forced to go into hiding and change his name!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

PRehse
14th October 2003, 14:15
Of course Mountbatten (Phil the Greek's name) was originally Battenberg.

The Germans were everywhere.

And just to bring the thread almost first circle.

The Greeks are nothing but TURKS trying to be Italian. So what does this say about Italian Budoka.

Vapour
14th October 2003, 14:23
An interesting thing about Greek Royal family is that, with one exception, none of their member have drop of Greek blood. They originate from Denmark.

As of British Royal Family switching their name to Windor, it happened in WWI.

Vapour
14th October 2003, 14:26
Originally posted by PRehse

The Greeks are nothing but TURKS trying to be Italian. So what does this say about Italian Budoka.

Oh, my. It's a sure flamebait/insult to Greek.

StanLee
14th October 2003, 14:30
Originally posted by PRehse

The Greeks are nothing but TURKS trying to be Italian. So what does this say about Italian Budoka.

Is this a trick question?:confused: :confused: :confused:

Can I have 50:50, or call a friend?

Is the answer Italian Budoka = Greek Budoka = Danish Budoka

Therefore Italian Budoka = Danish Budoka...

argggggggggg the confusion!

Earl Hartman
14th October 2003, 20:32
Regarding possible Polynesian/South Pacific admixtures in the Japanese bloodline, some scholars of kyudo history have speculated that the Japanese longbow shows this influence.

As is well known, the Japanese bow is, in comparison with the bows of other peoples, somewhat eccentric, being extremely long with an off-center grip. While it now is of a recurve design (the result of the Japanese adoption and adaptation of mainland Asian design and lamination techniques adapted to native materials), it was originally a single-curve longbow made out of a single piece of wood.

Although I have not studied this deeply, I have read that this has led some scholars to speculate that, since this bow is so different than the bows used by continental Asians (Koreans, Chinese, and Mongols) and resembles aboriginal bows used by people in the South Pacific, it stands to reason that it may have been brought to Japan by these people migrating to the Japanese archipelago. AFAIK, the Ainu bow was a short non-recurve bow made out of a single piece of wood and gripped in the center. (Personally, I believe that this may also be due to the fact that the Japanese did not have a ready supply of animal horn from large flocks of ruminants, like the Mongols, for example, but did have a ready supply of hardwood and bamboo; but that is a subject for another discussion.)

It is common knowledge that the royal families of Europe are all related due to centuries of intermarriage. I believe that Queen Victoria and the Russian Tsar (Nichloas or Alexander? I can't remember which) were cousins. And George III was known as "German George" becasue he didn't know how to speak English. Anyway, the English have changed dynasties more often than Jennifer Lopez changes men. Even William the Conqueror was originally Norse (Norman, i.e., a "Northman")

What does "Fuji" mean in Ainu?

Vapour
14th October 2003, 23:33
I personally have view that ainu and hayato of kyushyu are somehow related to polynesian stocks. Saigo-san, for examples, looks very much like Polynesian to me.

matasaburo
19th October 2003, 10:07
The remains of an emperess in a kofun near Nara were checked for DNA back in the late eighties. The DNA showed a very strong connection to Korea (I dunno how these things are explained), anyhow the report was that the emperess was in fact Korean; as further evidenced by the Korean jewelry she wore and the paintings on the tomb walls. Of course the Japanese will deny all this today though.

As for Ainu words in Japanese today; KAMI is an Ainu word for supernatural beings. HIME is the Ainu word for priestess, the Japanese just changed it to mean princess.

The early shamans of Japan were all female, as in many Polynesian cultures, and some were even androgenous.

The Philippinos are also of Polynesian ancestry and there is evidence that the Japanese had a colony in the philippines as far back as the early 1500's.

matasaburo
19th October 2003, 10:12
Oh, I forgot to add that the well known cherry blossom; the representation of Japan actually came from Persia and was not originally found in Japan. This is why the cherry tree is a called persica ........

In the Shosoin repository (dates?) there are some items that are of Persian and Turkish origin. This clearly shows that Japan was trading with Western Europe even early on in her history.

Cady Goldfield
22nd October 2003, 17:26
Originally posted by Vapour
They weren't borrowed. I suspect that Polynesian related people were the original inhabitants of Japan before overwhelmed by Orientals.

By the way, it is quite common for some Japanese kids to have curly hair which get straighter as they grow up. My sister had one and my uncle's hair was pretty much afro when he was kid. It's much common in Southern blood (Kyushyu, the place of Satuma Hayato). Any info on this?

I don't have specific information regarding that hair texture in Japanese, but I do know that kinked hair is a trait that has persisted among ethnicities that originated in hot climates. The trait does confer some benefits as a cooling device, as heat escapes faster from the head when hair is kinked -- an advantage in hot places. Perhaps it persisted in the south of Japan for that reason, and because no one actively selected to eliminate the trait (as in by marrying only people with unkinky hair).

Jews also possess genes for kinked hair. We call 'em "Jewfros." heh heh. Some of my aunts had the trait, but none of my cousins or brothers or I do.

elder999
22nd October 2003, 22:39
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/fall01/032230excerpt2.htm

There's an anthropologist who believes the Zuni are descended from Japanese.

elder999
22nd October 2003, 23:02
For example, the Zuni sacred rosette(top) closely resmebles Japan's national symbol, the chrysanthemum:

Cady Goldfield
23rd October 2003, 01:13
Diverse cultures can spontaneously invent or discover the same designs, etc. without ever having had contact with each other. That has happened time and again.

Genetic frequencies are far more telling.

elder999
23rd October 2003, 15:05
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Diverse cultures can spontaneously invent or discover the same designs, etc. without ever having had contact with each other. That has happened time and again.

Genetic frequencies are far more telling.

Well, there are more than a few of those in her theory, but I couldn't very well post an image of most of them, could I? She also believes that the intemingling actually took place rather late-around the 13th century or so, so the design becomes a bit more relevant.

Cady Goldfield
23rd October 2003, 15:46
The author draws comparisons between Zuni and Japanese culture that have absolutely no common link except for that of humanity -- that human beings, being all of the same species and thus possessing the same emotional and creative capabilities, can easily develop similar customs, artforms and social structure.

She traces the historic meetings of various European and one North African individual with Zuni, but fails to indicate any historical activity regarding Japanese interaction. In fact, she points out Japanese exclusivism with its implication of self-imposed isolation. She doesn't cite any historic proofs nor even references to Japanese exploration. All historical tracts about the Japanese -- including all those by the Japanese themselves -- indicate that Japanese did not venture to other hemispheres. They were not travelers.

After a long treatise that in no way indicates anything about Japanese-Zuni interchange, and in the very last sentence, the writer tosses in her zinger that she believes "Japanese pilgrims" met with Zuni and influenced their culture.

Okay, so, how does one rationally, logically make a line for Point A to Point Q? Come on. :rolleyes:

Her tossed-in remark is completely without basis or reason.

elder999
23rd October 2003, 16:03
The evidence for this ostensibly wacky hypothesis is circumstantial, but quite suggestive, perhaps even persuasive.

The notion came to her in 1960 when she was struck by similarities between charts of yin-yang cosmology and those she had prepared of Zuni religious systems as a graduate student.

The journey seems physically possible: seagoing rafts plied the ocean off China as early as the fifth century B.C.Ships that carried 70-100 men wrecked along the Asian coast in the 12th and 13th centuries, and Japan was sending embassies to Mexico by the early 17th century.
Chinese coins have been found woven into Tlingit armor, and iron spikes of ancient origin and huge stone Chinese anchors have turned up on the coast of southern California.

There is also evidence suggesting Asian admixture found in Zuni biology, religion, social organization, and oral traditions of migration. Possible cultural and language links of Zuni to California, the social disruption at the end of the Heian period of the 12th century in Japan, the size of Japanese ships at the time of proposed migration, the cluster of significant changes in the late 13th century in Zuni, all lend further credibility to a relatively late prehistoric contact.

Linguistic similarities are also suggestive. So far, linguists have been unable to relate Zuni to any other language, not only in the American Southwest, but the world. Basic Zuni and Japanese syntax is subject-object-verb (as opposed to subject-verb-object in English and Chinese).

Both languages primarily alter words with suffixes, not with prefixes or internally (e.g., "come" to "came"). Japanese and Zuni employ 22 phonemes, and 17 are the same: all the vowels and 12 out of 16 consonants. (By contrast, Navaho has 60 phonemes.)

Many words are nearly identical: middle is "wannaka" in old Zuni, "mannaka" in Japanese; mountain is "yala" and "yama"; rain, "ami" and "ame"; to become angry, "ikati" and "ikari."
Japanese speakers will share her "aha" when the author observes Zuni men repeatedly saying "hai!" when listening to one another, to signify "I hear you, I understand, go on."

The cusp of Carabelli on the upper first molar is very common among most Native American tribes (53-60%), but appears among only 31-36% of Japanese, and 36% of Zuni. The Type B blood allele is absent in most Indians, high (20-40%) in Asians, low (0-15%) in Caucasians. Various studies have found between 10-32% of Japanese carry it, and about 10% of Zuni. There is also a significant change in Zuni physical characteristics from 1250-1400 AD-evidenced in skeletal remains, suggesting the arrival of a new element in the Zuni population.

The Zuni also suffer a much higher incidence of chronic renal failure -- also a problem for Japanese – than other Native or white Americans.

The author wisely titled her book -and it's a whole book , Cady, not a webpage-the Zuni "Enigma," rather than the Zuni "Solution," for she well knows her theory raises many more questions than it answers.

Cady Goldfield
23rd October 2003, 16:13
It's a pretty big streeeettttch, Aaron. Conjecture based on superficial similarities - with a dearth of sound, solid empirical data - is rife in the humanities. Even the odd Chinese or .. heck... Japanese guy washing up on the California shore would not likely be scholarly in all of the yin-yang, chrysanthemum mon, deep philosophical stuff, nevermind being able to traipse to Zuni land and start teaching it.

It's easy to postulate and make wild connections. But, hey - that's what makes people fun to bait at cocktail parties. :p

elder999
23rd October 2003, 16:23
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
It's a pretty big streeeettttch, Aaron. Conjecture based on superficial similarities - with a dearth of sound, solid empirical data - is rife in the humanities. Even the odd Chinese or .. heck... Japanese guy washing up on the California shore would not likely be scholarly in all of the yin-yang, chrysanthemum mon, deep philosophical stuff, nevermind being able to traipse to Zuni land and start teaching it.

It's easy to postulate and make wild connections. But, hey - that's what makes people fun to bait at cocktail parties. :p

Well, of course it's a stretch,and I have to admit that I haven't read it yet. Some Zuni friends suggested it, though-actually gave it to me, mostly wanting me to pick it apart.

Joseph Svinth
24th October 2003, 04:35
It's not a bad book, actually. And it wasn't a few shipwreck survivors. Instead, it was reportedly an actual expedition of Buddhists who headed west intentionally, to escape persecution in Japan. The thesis is that they landed in California, and gradually moved east until they reached the Center of the World.

See also http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0102/departments/letters-record.html , http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0010/class-notes/newsmaker.html , and http://www.david-loftus.com/Books/zuni.html . (Indeed, the latter sounds a lot like Aaron's discussion.)

Cady Goldfield
24th October 2003, 13:22
Pretty far fetched, Joseph. But, it makes for good reading.

The likelihood that a shipload of Buddhist monks would have the navigational and technical sophistication to get a ship from Japan to Shangri-LaLa land is slim to none.

Norsemen were skilled sailors and navigators who spent their lives exploring the coasts in their powerful vesssels. Greenland and Labrador are lots closer to Scandinavia than Japan is to continental North America. Yet their explorations to the New World were fraught with danger, and they left little impact on the lands they visited.

A group of monks, not known for nautical abilities and traveling thousands of miles more through unknown waters, is a reaaaaal sstrrrreeetch. Nevermind them surviving on the shores of California long enough to make their way inland through desert and unfamiliar land to Zuni territory. Jeez.

Joseph Svinth
25th October 2003, 02:25
Speaking of farfetched, then what's with the stories about a baby born to a woman not being married being Immaculate Conception? Generally, that's called "having a boyfriend." And since when are voices coming from burning bush representing the revealed word of the Deity rather than an indication that Prozac hadn't been invented yet? Nonetheless, I'm told that a billion or more people find those particular whoppers to be historically plausible. No wonder Barnum said one was born every minute.

Anyway, without saying I agree with the thesis, note that lots of Japanese products (and the occasional live Japanese) wash up on the Washington coast, sometimes as little as 9-10 months after hitting the water. For an introduction, see http://www.seabean.com/duckies .

See also http://www.seattle.us.emb-japan.go.jp/English/WAJapanRelationship/History/index_history.htm , which notes, "One of the more significant "exchanges" [between Japan and Oregon] was the historic arrival of three Japanese sailors to the Pacific Northwest in 1834, near Cape Flattery. Otokichi, Kyukichi and Iwakichi were the only survivors of the Hojun-maru, which left Onoura Port (present Mihama town), Aichi Prefecture in 1832, but was lost at sea on its way to Edo (present Tokyo)."

Cady Goldfield
25th October 2003, 04:10
People believe what they want to believe because it gives them comfort. That's all that religion is about, after all.

The voices in my head are strictly my own. :D

The interaction between Japanese sailors and the Left Coast are far more plausible, since by then the Japanese had far more sophisticated vessels, navigational skills and actual familiarity with western culture, albeit Euro-American and not Zuni.

Joseph Svinth
26th October 2003, 01:16
The Japanese in Oregon in the 1830s weren't there intentionally -- they were (usually teenaged) fishermen whose boat had been damaged in a storm. Note that you can throw Nike shoes or rubber duckies overboard at the right time of the year, and 2% of them eventually reach the Left Coast. The other 98% are of course shark food.

The first American ship to visit Japan was Lady Washington, in 1791. A description of the visit is at http://mcel.pacificu.edu/aspac/papers/scholars/mockford/mockford.htm .

For the ship herself, see http://ladywashington.linsect.com/ . You've undoubtedly seen her, though, or at least the full-sized working replica that was used in "Star Trek: Generations" and "Pirates of the Caribbean." In the first flick, she was renamed "Enterprise" and given a giant fake wheel for the actors to play with, while in the second flick, she was renamed HMS Interceptor, and called the fastest ship in the fleet. See http://home1.gte.net/ikvamar/flybaby/Enterprise.HTM and http://www.thedailyworld.com/daily/2003/May-27-Tue-2003/news/news3.html . All ahead Knot Factor Nine, aye.

Anyway, from the first link above: "After being swept off course in 1782, [Isokichi] had been shipwrecked on Amchitka Island in the Aleutians. Or perhaps it was another translator who had learned Russian from such castaways and was trying to relate the story of the castaways to Broughton. Their vessel a 1,000 koku ship named the Shinsho Maru had set out from Ise with a cargo of rice from the Tokugawa (Gosanke) House of Kii to the Shogun Tokugawa Ieharu in Edo. Sailing from Ise across the Enshu Nada, the seaboard that stretches from the Kii Peninsula to the Izu Peninsula, they were hit by a severe wind that destroyed the ship rudder and prevented their return to land. Drifting north on the Kuroshio or "Black Current" they were swept over the course of six months to Amchitka where they finally landed. In addition to the native islanders they met Russians and here they lived for five years before they were able to build a boat and attempt a return."

See also http://www.old-japan.co.uk/sentaro.html , which notes evidence of shipwrecked Japanese across the Pacific as far back as 1617, and http://www.manjiro.org/reconsider.html , which adds:

"During the Edo Period, which extended from 1600 to 1867, many Japanese seamen on coastal freight boats or fishing boats encountered storms which blew their vessels into the Pacific far from Japanese waters. Unable to return to Japan, they eventually found themselves in places as far from their home as the Kamchatka Peninsula and the Aleutian Islands in the North, and points as far East as Canada and the North Western United States. Those who drifted South fetched up in Taiwan, Luzon, Annam, or one of the many islands in the South Pacific."

A bibliography of such stuff appears at http://rbcm1.rbcm.gov.bc.ca/hhistory/japaneseshipwrecks/sources.html .

Tripitaka of AA
5th November 2003, 07:06
What is a Zuni?

Cady Goldfield
5th November 2003, 14:59
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
What is a Zuni?

One of the native ethnicities of the American (US) Southwest. Some other regional ethnic groups are the Navajo and Hopi.

rinpoche
5th November 2003, 18:26
I haven't read the book - although it sounds pretty interesting.

The idea that at some point in the 13th century some people from Japan washed up and at least intermingled with Native Americans is not so far fetched that I couldn't believe it.

If there a bunch of genetic anomalies with the Zuni tribe that separate it from virtually every other Native American tribe - interracial breeding actually seems the most plausible explanation.

Now, if you find linguistic and other cultural artifacts that are also related - but anomalies to every other geographically close group. The explanation becomes more plausible.

I don't think it's a terriffic stretch.

Now, the idea that it was a ship full of Buddhists escaping persecution seems like conjecture, but the author is clear that this is a theory.

On the East Coast there are a bunch of pre-colombian European sites. Notably a stone tower in Connecticut, and a stone carving of Scottish knight and some ship moorings dated to the 14th century in Weston Mass.

I have also heard stories about Southwestern native American Tribes that would have blue-eyed children every so often. Genetically they must have blue- eyed ancestors

Vapour
5th November 2003, 20:01
Well, let not forget Arab colonies in pre-Columbus American continent as well.

Sooner people forget the myth of Columbus the better.

elder999
5th November 2003, 23:43
Originally posted by Vapour
Well, let not forget Arab colonies in pre-Columbus American continent as well.

Sooner people forget the myth of Columbus the better.

Don't you mean African colonies?:D

Jock Armstrong
6th November 2003, 15:05
What's the peovenance for Arabic colonies in the continental US. Thats a neew one on me. I heard of Chinese [west coast], Norse, Pre Roman Spanish [celtiberian], and possibly Welsh and Irish.

Joseph Svinth
7th November 2003, 03:52
If you're steaming 600 miles west of Dakar, and get sunk by a German raider or U-boat, your lifeboat may end up off Brazil a month or so later. See, for instance, http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news/2003-July/000227.html . Farther back (as in way farther back), there are reasonably reliable reports by writers of Balboa's generation about seeing Moorish (e.g., Muslim West African) settlements in Central America. Good sailors may have been able to make a round trip, but of course the return would have been much trickier.

Some people also assert that various Olmec and Mayan artifacts exhibit African influence. Ivan van Sertima is the doyen of this school. Myself, I think he goes about as far out on that limb as one reasonably should. Unfortunately, there are some who take his position as starting point rather than ending point, and they give the entire thesis a bad name. Anyway, see, for example, http://www.inform.umd.edu/outlook/1999-02-02/feb-2-99/early.html .