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RichP
14th October 2003, 23:03
Hi,

I was wondering what this community's thoughts were on rank. In particular what amount of time should have expired before shodan is given?
My thoughts on the kyu ranks are that, the first half can be obtained through just being physical, and the latter half through technique.
So what signifies shodan?
Who should decide, or, how many individuals should decide an individual obtaining the shodan rank?
I understand that some people are gifted and will progress quickly, however this is the exception rather than the rule.
Some martial arts learn only the physical side and grade on that to shodan. For example learn 20 kata and you have shodan (simplified of course). So what is gained from such a system? Certainly there isn't any growth of the character or personality. I have personally seen that in some martial arts, the bigger and more physical you are, the quicker you progress.
From an Australian mind set, I know that myself, if I do not feel as if I earned something then I tend to, consciously or subconsciously, devalue it.
Perhaps and probably the Japanese mind is very different. I do not presume to know them.
I have seen a shodan rank given after 3 months of training in Japan (with no prior Ninjutsu training). What value is that? My limited understanding of the Japanese is that, they say "the person will grow in to the rank".
That being said everyone is a shodan!

To me, shodan is a worthy goal to be obtained and should not be devalued by taking short cuts. I feel that by doing so, it humiliates the art to the point that people do not take it seriously and devalues it.

Cheers,
Rich

Martyn van Halm
14th October 2003, 23:15
[I think] the importance placed on acquiring a dan grade is a typical western attitude - in Japan everybody has dan grades, which is like holding a membership card. Kyu grades are aspiring members.
Shodan grades are abundant and mean you've passed the requirements for membership. Nidan and sandan are senior members. Above sandan indicates that someone is a qualified assistant instructor - or an instructor if there is a shortage of instructors.

So I'd hesitate to make acquaring 'shodan' a 'goal', but rather something that you will acquire along the way to becoming a profiscient martial artist.

TommyK
15th October 2003, 03:38
Greetings,

Your post caught my eye, and since I do not practice your arts, I have to ask the subject question: "Are you really that different?"

By this I mean: 'rank' is usually used to donote 1st dan and higher, while the term 'grade' usually refers to sub-dan rank. It appears that the posts previous to mine 'switched' these words around. Was this on purpose or just a poor choice of words to make your points.

Am I reading too much into this choice of words or, are things really that different in your art?

Regards,
TommyK

Oni
15th October 2003, 04:09
Originally posted by TommyK
Greetings,

Your post caught my eye, and since I do not practice your arts, I have to ask the subject question: "Are you really that different?"

By this I mean: 'rank' is usually used to donote 1st dan and higher, while the term 'grade' usually refers to sub-dan rank. It appears that the posts previous to mine 'switched' these words around. Was this on purpose or just a poor choice of words to make your points.

Am I reading too much into this choice of words or, are things really that different in your art?

Regards,
TommyK

Hmm...interesting...I have actually always heard rank and grade used interchangably. In doing a quick net search for 'dan rank' and 'dan grade' I found both references used pretty equally. One site mentioned that 'shodan' was the first 'graded rank' so take that how you will ;)

I really liked Martyn posts in regards to this subject. I too see shodan as something you will attain if you hang around long enough. It IS something to be proud of attaining as it represents sticking it out...but it by no means is an end all be all goal. Normally it means that its time to really start putting your stuff together.

Anyway...gotta go teach class so cutting this one off.

RichP
15th October 2003, 04:50
Hi,

I did not know that the Japanese thought that way about shodan. But then again Martial Arts is an ingrained part of their culture.
I am concerned about about the statement "something that you attain if you hang around long enough". Perhaps I am misunderstanding exactly what you are trying to say, but to me then, if I was to hang around long I would get 10th dan? It kind of devalues the whole thing. Maybe you don't need to try, because eventually you will get it.
This is what I am trying to say, that perhaps it should be more of a goal than how the Japanese view it. After all we are westerners (gai-jin) that view acomplishment differently.

I am sorry if this sounds like a flame. It is not my intention! I only wish to get to the core issue.

Ok, so if we view shodan as "membership", then the dan grades need to be more controlled so that again we don't get people that have hardly put any effort in to Ninjutsu obtaining 6th dan by simply requesting it from Hatsumi soke.


Thank you,
Rich

Oni
15th October 2003, 04:54
Rich,

My statement was in regards to shodan only.

Actually to clarify...I DO think that there should be certain measures as well as time involved in getting shodan...but it is NOT the huge thing that some seem to make it in my opinion. So many folks out there seem to view that having a shodan makes you an expert. In fact I have encountered folks out there that assume because one has a black belt in one art...it automatically makes them an authority on ALL martial arts ;)

RichP
15th October 2003, 05:27
Michael,

Certainly I agree that people do often view shodan as having a license to know everything.
Perhaps shodan should be viewed as a beginning of knowing the inner person.
And stressed that they only know the "Basics of Ninjutsu".
So no matter what, there are extremes on both sides of the argument.
A nice balance would be a small amount of control placed on shodan and higher dan grades.
Hopefully reducing the damage done by unqualified instructors that obtained their rank in record time. Hence damaging Ninjutsu's good name.

Cheers,
Rich

kirigirisu
15th October 2003, 07:16
Originally posted by RichP
A nice balance would be a small amount of control placed on shodan and higher dan grades.
Hopefully reducing the damage done by unqualified instructors that obtained their rank in record time. Hence damaging Ninjutsu's good name.


Believe that is still the jurisdiction of the Shidoshi awarding the student his/her/its shodan, as it should be.

Again, trying to step out of the round-eye-rank-disease perspective, you have to understand that outside of the western world, one's performance as, well, as a "shodan" in this case, reflects not only upon oneself but also upon the quality of one's instructors and seniors in the art.

Thanks to cultural quirks such as "giri" and obligations between student and teacher that for the most part are severely lacking in the west, it's the up to the student to live up to the rank he has been given (notice that I didn't say "rank he has acheived") in order to make himself worthy of that ranking.

Cookie-cutter regulations go counter to this. Abolishes self-discipline and self-motivation. Only you can make yourself worthy of the rank. The rank in and of itself means JACK otherwise.

In any case, I say if you want to judge an instructor, look at his students (and not in the most obvious ways, either).

All part of the healthy dose of chaos designed to make life more interesting (in the Chinese curse sense of the word) for the less-motivated seekers among us.

Just my own speculation.

Also, the whole "hang-up" with getting that dark-colored piece of cloth that keeps your pants up is natural. Takes a while to get over it and get back to training.

Kreth
15th October 2003, 14:47
I think any issues over rank can be attributed to cultural differences.
In Japan, rank seems to be awarded as a recognition of a student's effort, and to encourage said student to live up to the new rank (think carrot on a stick :D ). If you think of it like the apprentice systems used in many trades, kyu grades are like apprentices, and a shodan would be equivalent to a journeyman, ie. the student has mastered the basics of the craft, but still needs to hone his/her skills to become a master craftsman/tradesman.
In the West, rank is usually given as a milestone. The general perception of a "black belt" is a martial arts master, able to defeat 20 machete-wielding opponents without seriously injuring any of them. I also think it's quite common in the West for a lower dan rank to shift towards teaching mode, at the expense of his/her own learning process. After all, why continue to be a student when you're an expert? :rolleyes:

Jeff

gmarquay
15th October 2003, 14:52
Does "rank" really matter anyway? I have been training in BBT for 3 years now. My original instructor graded me to 9th Kyu. His 9th Kyu test was a difficult one, encompassing various forms of Ukemi, Sanshin no Kata, basic versions of the Kihon Happo, wrist escapes, and showing the ablility to flow from one technique to another using the Kihon Happo. I was happy just to complete the test.

Since then, my instructor left the Bujinkan, and I have been left with no actual instructor. I've been to many seminars (quite a few), and have seen many different interpretations of Kihon, Kata, etc. As far as "kata collection" goes, I have "collected" quite a bit of information. My training at home consits of doing Sanshin no Kata, Khon Happo, and maybe working on one kata durring each session (If my wife or friends feel like being a training parter). Regardless of how much information I have, I am still graded as a ninth Kyu.

That USED TO bother me. But I realized something. It simply DOES NOT MATTER. I have so very much to learn. "Collecting" the kata is one thing. Really learning from them is another thing totally. After 3 years of learning, experimenting, failing, and accomplishing, I am very happy with my 9th Kyu. I decided that I am going to remain a lifetime 9th Kyu. Because that piece of paper is just that.....a peice of paper. Nothing more, nothing less. If I train all of the kata of, lets say, Gyokko Ryu, and finally glean some of the principles behind the kata, does it matter that I am "just a kyu rank"? NOPE. Who cares? I don't. Just train. Just enjoy your life. Just learn to be the best you can be at life. Peices of paper come and go. Whatever knowledge you gain along the way cannot be taken from you.

I enjoy training as a hobby, as a passion, and as a lifelong pursuit. I don't train for a piece of paper. I train for enjoyment in my heart. Isn't that the true measure of life? I really hope so.
Sorry for the long post. I just had to get that off my chest. Thanks.

- Glenn Marquay

Marc Renouf
15th October 2003, 17:37
The problem of rank consistency is why I don't ask fellow budoka I meet "what rank are you?" Instead I ask, "How long have you been training?" Then, if given the opportunity, I watch their movement and decide for myself what their overall skill level is.

Does lack of rank consistency in the Bujinkan bug me? In terms of the higher dan grade, yes. Is it rooted in cultural differences in understanding of the meaning of rank? Yes. Is there anything I can do about it? No. Should it impact my training somehow? No. So why worry about it? There will always be people out there who are ranked way above their skill. There will always be people out there who are ranked way below their skill.

In my opinion, the only thing you have to worry about is your skill. Work hard to make it better. And if you really are worried that someone out there is "cheapening" your rank, work extra hard to be a good example to counter their bad one.

kimq
15th October 2003, 18:22
It would be simple for one to sum up the recent Sveneric Seminar in Saskatoon with pat descriptions like “interesting,” “informative,” or “worthwhile,” but feel unsatisfied with that kind of summary. Pursuit of a deeper description may prove fruitless, however, because much of the presented material is still being digested. The personal experience is layered and in ways likely unintended by either the host or the guest.

Sveneric, at first acquaintance, is an open and friendly person. He bears the weight of his position in the Bujinkan well. It is his demeanor that suggests a level of personal peace. He appears to be a man truly comfortable with himself and his life.

The Friday evening open discussion with Sveneric seemed to set the tone for the duration of the seminar. It was almost as if both Sveneric and the participants came to the seminar with nothing in mind. The lack of preconceptions allowed a clean slate to come to life for the seminar. Although discussion was exchanged and Sveneric was as forthright and truthful as possible, it was almost as if the bulk of the seminar participants reserved themselves to be spoon-fed rather than proactively pursue the mental aspects of their training. I doubt there would have been a better opportunity for any of us in the presence of a long-standing and knowledgeable member of the Bujinkan in our immediate, reachable presence. Although the seminar’s slate was clean, it felt like most were content to achieve the status quo rather than pursue seminar excellence. Without proaction on a participant’s behalf, no level of instruction, regardless of the highest quality present, would likely benefit them. The majority seemed willing to waste time with the status quo, despite the opportunity presented to them on a silver platter.

It has been my experience when training that the partnership between two practitioners is very important to the overall results of an exercise. Common ground must be sought where both participants can train and benefit. Sometimes the common ground is relatively low, but this is to be reasonably expected in certain situations.

When I first started training, I was partnered with someone suffering from a long-term medical problem. Although capable, my partner was unable to perform some physical actions that I knew his skills were capable of. In a sense, their condition inhibited their execution and our training common ground was less than what it could have been. I knew this going into the partnership and took it all in stride, accordingly.

After switching to another set of partners, I soon found myself mentally stuck at the previous common ground level. My partners were training at a common ground far beyond what I was previously geared to. It was difficult to re-tune myself to the higher pace, and became frustrated when I discovered that their common ground was far beyond my abilities. In a sense, I felt like I was dragging them down. My frustration grew but I endeavored to push on and learn what I could, hoping not to bother my partners too greatly with my lack of comparative ability.

I consider myself a competent martial artist for the time I have spent training. I don’t consider myself good or particularly bad. I witnessed the spectrum of practitioners at the seminar and identified where I relatively fit within it.

Although the lessons learned with my betters were valuable, they paled in comparison to the lesson I gained from another seminar attendee. Too often I have heard that one should not put meaning on rank. I considered these statements mere words and privately searched for a deeper meaning. The simple truth, previously self-ignored by some lost cause to find meaning in an abstract concept, came to me in the form of someone who was ranked noticeably higher than my own achievements.

This practitioner’s years of training placed him somewhere between the highest ranked member of the Bujinkan school I attend and its chief instructor. The demonstrated lack of skills on their behalf shocked me. After close to an hour of training with this person, I was disturbed and then amused to discover that our common training ground was very low – much lower than even that of the previous training with the practitioner with the medical problem. This person, without intent, had truly opened my eyes to the meaningless nature of rank. In short, too many people have a rank rather than are a rank. Sveneric expressed these same words during the Friday dialogue. The circle of my weekend was complete and I walked away with a very valuable lesson – one not fixed in hollow words but in all-important personal experience.

Martyn van Halm
15th October 2003, 23:11
I'd like to react to some people who might misinterpret my previous post.

As you can see from my sig, I hold the rank of kirikami shoden, the lowest rank on the 'menkyo ranking scale' and comparable with the shodan rank [grade, whatever].
Before attaining kirikami, I trained as a 'junior' for six years, became a 'senior' for three years and, after showing my profisciency at our yearly seminar, was awarded the rank of kirikami.
Except for showing my profisciency at this seminar I never took an 'exam'. I was simply told after six years that I was allowed to wear a hakama, and so became a senior.
I never started with the 'goal' to attain 'a black belt'. I still don't possess a black obi, I wear a blue 'kaku-obi', because it's more comfortable. Which means that, to the casual observer, I'm indistinguishable from a senior.

As I've understood from talking about these issues around our dojo, the black belt merely marks the boundary between the mudansha and the yudansha. The line between aspiring members and full members. Full members are allowed to practice in the full curriculum.

I hope this explains my attitude towards students who see the black belt as a goal. In my opinion, the black belt is the first rung on the ladder. And that ladder has quite a lot of rungs.

RichP
16th October 2003, 01:20
So the culture difference is apparent between the west and Japan. In regard to the student living up to the teachers expectations.
And also that we should concentrate on the training rather than rank.

However how would you, as an instructor respond to the following?

1) A 4th dan comes to your dojo and asks permission to train and is a member of Bujinkan. However, unknown to you he has only been training for 2 years. During training, his lack of ability becomes apparent. Perhaps to some students (high kyu grades and dan grades) the lack of ability is obvious.

2) A student that you had trained for the past 18 months (currently holding 6th Kyu) goes to Japan and returns with a shodan.

Cheers,
Rich

Martyn van Halm
16th October 2003, 03:25
Richard,
I don't know if you pose this question to me [I''m not an instructor], but, in regards to your query, in both cases I would take the students apart and ask them if they notice the discrepancies between skill and rank. I would advice them to leave their black belts at home and revert to wearing white obi. If they'd refuse, I would seriously consider removing them from the dojo/club, to avoid serious problems, not only to the harmony of the club, but also in legal terms if they would become injured as a result of training above their level [like participating in 'black-belt-only' classes].

Kneppy18
16th October 2003, 05:19
I, as a beginner in Bujinkan Ninjutsu, asked someone about this. (Sorry, I can't remember if it was a 4th dan I met at the dojo or Papa San, Ed Martin himself, I'm 98% sure that it was Ed Martin though) One of them told me that all a dan means is that you are now ready to start learning the principles of Bujinkan Ninjutsu. The Kyu ranks are just to prepare you to start learning.

I could be wrong, but that is what I was told from my reliable source ;)

-Aaron Knepp

Marc Renouf
16th October 2003, 19:20
I've lost count of the number of times I've gone to a seminar or Tai Kai and trained with someone of high rank who turned out to have poor skills. I just chuckle, move on, and try not to be that guy myself.

As for a student going to Japan and coming back with a shodan, I don't really see a problem with it. But if they were my student, I'd hammer every little detail and bad habit they had, and pick apart every shortcoming in their technique that I could find in order to help them live up to the rank that they had been given. And I'd try to impress upon them that the rank had been given, not earned.

My instructor always used to talk about the responsibility inherent in holding rank. I was always like, "that's nice," and I'd train like normal and go about my merry way. I never really had any clue what he was talking about until I was about sandan and started helping out some of the kyu and lower dan-ranked folks. They'd ask questions that I didn't have answers to, and that bugged me. So I worked harder at making myself better so that I could answer those questions.

Then, when I was faced with the prospect of taking my godan test, it really hit me. Suddenly, there was the idea that I was supposed to be licensed to teach all on my own. Holy crap! That means I actually have to know something! I can't fake it, and the amount of effort I put into my training affects not only my own progress but the progress of my hypothetical students as well. Suddenly, I wasn't so sure I wanted to pass my godan test.

The point I'm trying to get at is that some people see their rank as an entitlement, a mark of membership in some kind of "exclusive club," and as some kind of privilege. For them, it's the chance to slack off, rest on their laurels, and give orders.

Others see it for what I have come to believe it really is: giri. It is obligation and responsibility and duty and effort and a lifelong struggle to get better, not just for oneself but for others as well. It's the proverbial "tough row to hoe." And as the rank increases, so does the expectation.

There will always be people who don't live up to expectations. There will always be people who exceed them. The only thing you can do is decide which kind of person you'd like to be and act accordingly.

KevinC
16th October 2003, 20:41
I was a go-kyo (3 years training) who, while laid off and blessed with the gift of time, went to Noda... and was told, one night at the Hombu - "Bery good - shodan!" Just like that...

Gulp.

Now what?

I got a "bit" :p spun up about it - just the day before I had mentioned to a new friend at class, feels wierd being the only kyu rank in the room - and he grinned and said, "better to be the best green belt than the worst black belt, no?" (not implying I was the best green belt, but his point was very well taken).

All the questions asked in this thread went through my head the next week while I trained, went walking about Tokyo, and rode the trains. My notes from that week reflect a lot of the churn.

I came home, went to my first class with my teacher wearing my green belt, and after class, quietly asked to speak to him - and told him what happened. He busted out a big smile, hugged me, said "congratulations, SHODAN!" in his booming voice, and told the rest of the class. I asked if I could keep the green belt until I passed HIS kyu tests and shodan test - and was refused. He said, "The boss gave you that belt. Make it fit." And, "you are doing this the hard way, you know? You passed the test, but you are still going to be tested".

And I was. The next 6 or 7 months were pretty tough. My sensei (rokudan, trained mostly in Nagato-dojo for three years) picked me apart pretty thoroughly. I was uke - a LOT. I got banged up a few times - and got the answer (to the unvoiced questions) - "Do better." My kihon, go-gyo and ukemi were all subjected to public dissection.

I've improved. The other shodan in our tiny dojo (who was tested (with me as his yodansha uke, how wierd that felt!) shortly after), and I were told last week - "you are now where I think shodan should be. You both passed the test - but now I feel like your basics are to the level they should be."

I hope that is true. I know I have worked hard to try to meet the expectations of my sensei, my Soke, and myself. THAT is what *I* think the (premature?) shodan should do - raise the bar and give you a kick in the butt to do better. My strongest hope is that I never take that belt somewhere else and reflect onto MY SENSEI the opinions some of you have formed of people you have trained with in the past! In order to keep my shortcomings from pointing at my teacher, the only thing I can do is work harder to try to eliminate those flaws.

PS Bathurst-shihan had some pretty good words on this subject when I asked him about it last November... he compared Soke to your grandfather, who wants to encourage and reward you, and doesn't see as much of your basic strengths and weaknesses when you see him once a year in Noda. Your sensei on the other hand - he's like your dad, and has to help you hammer out the details, day after day.

Kreth
17th October 2003, 14:23
Originally posted by KevinC
I hope that is true. I know I have worked hard to try to meet the expectations of my sensei, my Soke, and myself. THAT is what *I* think the (premature?) shodan should do - raise the bar and give you a kick in the butt to do better. My strongest hope is that I never take that belt somewhere else and reflect onto MY SENSEI the opinions some of you have formed of people you have trained with in the past! In order to keep my shortcomings from pointing at my teacher, the only thing I can do is work harder to try to eliminate those flaws.
Excellent post! I think the paragraph above is a great example of a student mindset, and the point that all the rank-chasers completely miss when they go to Japan each year for their next belt...

Jeff