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Gary Gabelhouse
16th October 2003, 18:32
Hello All,

Don't know whether this belongs in Bad Budo or here. Decided to keep it here as it deals only with Daitoryu. Late last year, there was an article that published an interview with Okabayashi-Sensei. Through due diligence, I find some descrepencies with regard to the article . . .

FROM THE ARTICLE

Q. When did you first become involved in martial arts?

A. I started training in Shito Ryu Karate when I was about 15 years old and trained in that style for about 6 years.

Q. When did you begin training in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu?

A. I was about 21 years old when I started training with Takuma Hisa Sensei. So it was in 1970.

(SNIP) So I began to search for a martial art that would teach me how to defeat the sword. After about a year of looking for a school, I came across Hisa Takuma Sensei’s group (teaching Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu). I found the things they were practicing very interesting. Hisa Sensei had traditional technique, so I asked him if I could study under him. He accepted me and so I began my training.
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GARY'S RESPONSE: Okabayashi did not begin training in Daitoryu under Takuma Hisa. He first trained with Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei (my Daitoryu teacher) and continued his training, attending both day and evening classes for two years. Ohgami-Sensei gave him his Shodan, I believe, in 1972. During this time he trained under only Ohgami-Sensei. As you know, Ohgami-Sensei began studying Daitoryu under Takuma Hisa in, I believe, 1959 or 1960. He was one of Hisa's senior students who helped create the Takumakai. He was very close with Hisa and has written the first approved biography of Takuma Hisa (coming out in English in 2004).

Also, Ohgami-Sensei was completely unaware of Okabayashi's involvement in Shito-Ryu Karate prior to coming to him to study Daitoryu. Okabayashi said nothing to Ohgami-Sensei about prior karate training and, many at the Daibukan, doubt he ever did practice Shito-Ryu.

Okabayashi became disgruntled with Ohgami when, after receiving his Shodan (from Ohgami), he was not exposed to a group of techniques which, according to Takuma Hisa's policy, were limited to sandan level. Ohgami was just following with the policy of his teacher (Hisa) and refused teaching those techniques to Okabayashi. Okabayashi also felt Ohgami charged too much for instruction and he was too strict. Ohgami-Sensei felt it best to have his teacher deal with this disgruntled student and introduced Okabayashi to Hisa.
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FROM THE ARTICLE:

Q. How long did you train with Hisa Sensei?

A. I trained under him until the late seventies, up to the point when Hisa Sensei became frail and his son asked him to move to Tokyo so he could take care of him.
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GARY RESPONDS: Takuma Hisa never had a son--only daughters. He did adopt a son, but it was his daughter that asked him to move to Tokyo so SHE could take care of him.
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FROM THE ARTICLE:

Q. When did you receive your kyoju dairi from Hisa Sensei?

A. I received it in 1976.

(A kyoju dairi in daito-ryu is a certificate, or teaching license. It signifies a mastery of hiden mokuroku (118 teachings), chuden mokuroku (65 teachings), aikijujutsu mokuroku (80 teachings), and goshen yo no te (84 teachings). It is an interesting note that Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, also held a kyoju dairi from the daito-ryu from Sokaku Tekeda)
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GARY RESPONDS: Takuma Hisa did not have nor did he teach the hiden mokuroku , nor the Chuden mokuroku and hence, had no such requirements for Kyoju Dairi. This casts doubt on Okabayashi receiving his kyoju dairi from Hisa. The hiden mokuroku and chuden mokuroku were systems developed by Tokimune Takeda--not Hisa, nor even Sokaku Takeda (Hisa received Menkyo Kaiden from Sokaku Takeda and he did not have the hiden mokuroku nor chuden mokuroku techniques).
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FROM THE ARTICLE:

I went to see Hisa Sensei to ask his permission to quit. When I told him my feelings, he said “no, you must continue to practice, I will introduce you to a very good teacher”, and wrote me a letter of recommendation to go see Takeda Tokimune Sensei in Hokkaido (a northern island of Japan where Sokaku Takeda has lived before him).
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GARY RESPONDS: This was very unlikely since Takuma Hisa had a very deep dislike of Takeda Tokimune. In the biography of Hisa, I remember Hisa alluding to the fact that Sokaku Takeda DID NOT teach Tokimune Takeda his Daitoryu. Takuma Hisa wrote many letters and post cards to my teacher about his dislike for and problems with Tokimune Takeda. I know this and have seen them (the post cards and letters). So, it is VERY unlikely that Hisa would send Okabayashi to Takeda Tokimune.

Respectfully,
Gary Gabelhouse

Nathan Scott
16th October 2003, 19:52
Hello Mr. Gabelhouse,

Thanks for offering your perspective to this interview. I have a few questions/comments to offer:

1) It is possible that Okabayashi trained in Shito ryu for six years but did not learn anything. Especially if he was a teenager and not interested in martial arts. It sounds as though he was interested in martial arts, but who knows what was going through his mind at that age? Anyway, unless you have other evidence to suggest that he didn't train in Shito ryu, I would propose that it is quite possible that he simply did not "show" his training.

2) Okabayashi's "oversight" in not mentioning his original training with Ohgami is interesting. But since they clearly had a falling out, perhaps he wishes to not mention it. On the other hand, it would be more honest to have said that he trained under another instructor first, and then Hisa later.

Also, considering this was a translated interview, it is possible that the exact phrasing may have changed a bit. For example, anyone that trained in the Takumakai during that time would have been "students of Takuma Hisa", since he was the Chief Instructor, and the other instructors were his "dairi" (substitute representatives). Also keep in mind that neither of us were there to witness the relationship, so there is surely another side to the story.

But again, this is still a misleading statement to make no matter how you spin it. It would have been bigger of Okabayashi to just credit Ohgami and not say much about that period to others.

3) Your comments about the Takumakai not having or teaching the Hiden Moku or Chuden waza is interesting. I wasn't aware that Hisa and Tokimune had a falling out, but in the various AJ interviews, there are a number of references to the Mainline and Takumakai working together in cooperation, and that the Takumakai respected Tokimune as the DR headmaster. The Takumakai is reported to have subsumed the Hiden Mokuroku as restructured by Tokimune in order to standardize teachings (though I understand it is referred to as the Shoden Mokuroku in Takumakai). Hisa was also friendly with Kondo, who was a student of Tokimune, and even gave him a copy of the Soden. If there was a secret dislike for Tokimune, that is one thing, but the Takumakai appears to have worked in cooperation with the Mainline more than any other major branch.

Are you saying that the Takumakai doesn't teach the Shoden Mokuroku and didn't subsume the Hiden (under whatever name) that Tokimune organized?

Keep in mind that in this interview, the comments in parenthesis are from the translators for purposes of clarity. Since Okabayashi last studied with Tokimune, he and his students probably started to use the mainline terminology.

4) As far as Tokimune and Hisa:


In the biography of Hisa, I remember Hisa alluding to the fact that Sokaku Takeda DID NOT teach Tokimune Takeda his Daitoryu.

Gee, where have I heard that before!? The only place I've heard differently about this is from the mainline, interestingly enough. :D

But, these letters from Hisa, I assume they are dated before this alleged referral, right? I can see where Hisa would have thought it prudent to remain on friendly terms with the current mainline from a legitimacy/political point of view, but if he really didn't respect what Tokimune was doing, it is a little strange. Unless he thought that it would give Okabayashi more legitimacy to do his own thing or something.

**

Mr. Gabelhouse, I for one do appreciate hearing an alternate point of view on a given subject, but with all due respect, have to say that it looks as though you/Ohgami are "out to get" Okabayashi. Okabayashi has clearly stated that he just wants to teach and stay out of all the DR politics and powerplays, so I feel a little bad about dragging him into debates such as this. But, if he has misrepresented himself publicly, then I suppose it might be appropriate to ask him/his group for clarifications on a few of these points to avoid any misunderstandings or hard feelings.

Regards,

JAM
16th October 2003, 21:48
Mr. Gabelhouse,

I am a member of the Hakuho Kai. I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting a posting of a Takumakai member that addresses Okabayashi Sensei's background. Once again, it's hearsay, but nowadays, what isn't on the internet...? My reason for posting it is to shed a 3rd party perspective on this--it would be expected that you and I are somewhat biased. Take from it what you will...As for the interview that you cite, it was transcribed in Canada--Okabayashi Sensei speaking in Japanese, translated by an American and then transcribed by a Canadian that speaks three different languages on a routine basis. It's conceivable that some finer points were lost.

Mr. Scott, you are right--Okabayashi Sensei is doing his best to stay out of such matters. I seriously doubt that he or any of his tenured direct students will appear on E-Budo to address this topic.

James Mullins

P.S.--I am going to edit this post so I can provide the link to the entire thread in which Mr. Rytilä's posting appears. I could not cut and paste his posting and the link at the same time.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15369&highlight=okabayashi


Originally posted by Jyrki
Hi,

I asked about Okabayashi Shogen sensei from Takumakai's Umei Shinichiro sensei. This is what I heard.

Okabayashi sensei started Daitoryu in Daibukan dojo. Daibukan is in Nishinomiya city near Osaka. His teacher was Oogami Kenkiti, who is one of Hisa Takuma's students. Maybe he has kyojudairi but I'm not sure. When Takumakai started, Oogami Kenkiti belonged to Takumakai. You can watch his techniques in the old 70's NHK Daito ryu video. After this video was made, he left Takumakai, but he had good relationship with Takumakai. When ever Takumakai had a big event, he joined in with his students. However, suddenly he did not join these events any more. To my knowledge this was because his students left him and joined Takumakai at every Takumakai's event. Okabayashi sensei was one of them. There were also many others who are now active in Takumakai.

When Okabayashi sensei joined Takumakai, he had already good skills in Daitoryu. He learned from Hisa Takuma only for a short time. However because he had good skills he got Kyojudairi almost same time with Kawabe Takeshi sensei. Kawabe sensei is Takumakai's head teacher (and also my teacher). At that time Hisa sensei was too old to move smoothly. Okabayashi sensei got a letter of introduction from Hisa sensei, and went to Hokkaido to study from Takeda Tokimune Sensei. He stayed in Hokkaido for a long time ( I don't know the exact time). After this he visited often Takeda Tokimune sensei in Hokkaido and studied his style a lot. In addition to this he learned Karate for a long time. With all this he formed his own personal style.

When Okabayashi came back to Takumakai, he was one of the best teachers of Takumakai in Osaka. Many people wanted to learn Daitoryu from him. His style was quite different from the other teachers of Takumakai; Kawabe sensei, Kobayashi sensei, and even Mori sensei. His style was very hard and straight. However, nobody complained, because he is a very good teacher. If somebody know Takumakai's Araki sensei, he was among the first students and also the best student of Okabayashi sensei. Umei sensei has been in Okabayashi sensei's house several times to learn Daitoryu from him. Every person in Takumakai believed that his style and his explanation of techniques were the real Daitoryu.

One day, ten years ago, Umei sensei got a seminar announcement of instructors' seminar from Takumakai office. This announcement said that a special seminar will be held in Wakimachi, Shikoku by Chiba sensei. Chiba sensei is a student of Nakatsu Heizaburo. Nakatsu Heizaburo sensei studied Daitoryu at Asahi Shinbun dojo with Takuma Hisa sensei. Their teachers where, as you know, Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Takeda Sokaku sensei. Most teachers in Takumakai didn't know Chiba sensei at that time. Umei sensei didn't know either. He knew only that Kawabe sensei learn's from an old teacher in Shikoku. All the members who joined this seminar were very surprised. Chiba sensei's style and techniques were strange and unique, but very familiar. Just like deja vu. Just like Sokaku Takeda.


Jyrki Rytilä
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Helsinki
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

Gary Gabelhouse
16th October 2003, 22:16
Hello Nathan,

You wrote:

1) It is possible that Okabayashi trained in Shito ryu for six years but did not learn anything. Especially if he was a teenager and not interested in martial arts. It sounds as though he was interested in martial arts, but who knows what was going through his mind at that age? Anyway, unless you have other evidence to suggest that he didn't train in Shito ryu, I would propose that it is quite possible that he simply did not "show" his training.

GARY RESPONDS: It is certainly possible that the six years of training in Shito ryu eluded the observers in the Daitoryu dojo.

2) Okabayashi's "oversight" in not mentioning his original training with Ohgami is interesting. But since they clearly had a falling out, perhaps he wishes to not mention it. On the other hand, it would be more honest to have said that he trained under another instructor first, and then Hisa later.

GARY RESPONDS: The question in the interview is quite clear and offers little wiggle room...

Q. When did you begin training in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu?

A. I was about 21 years old when I started training with Takuma Hisa Sensei. So it was in 1970.

In reality, he started Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu training in 1970 under Ohgami Kenkichi-Sensei--went both morning and evening classes for two (2) years and got shodan from Ohgami-Sensei in 1972. That is clearly reflected in both Ohgami-Sensei's records and correspondence between Ohgami-Sensei and Takuma Hisa.
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Also, considering this was a translated interview, it is possible that the exact phrasing may have changed a bit. For example, anyone that trained in the Takumakai during that time would have been "students of Takuma Hisa", since he was the Chief Instructor, and the other instructors were his "dairi" (substitute representatives). Also keep in mind that neither of us were there to witness the relationship, so there is surely another side to the story.

GARY RESPONDS: I saw the interview and also had an English teacher living in Japan translate the interview. It was a very straightforward question (rare in Japan :-) and an equally straightforward response (again, rare in Japan :-)
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But again, this is still a misleading statement to make no matter how you spin it. It would have been bigger of Okabayashi to just credit Ohgami and not say much about that period to others.

GARY RESPONDS: I would bet Okabayashi felt that mentioning such would elicit further questions, and he would, very quickly, have some uncomfortable alternatives in front of him. Suffice it to say, Nathan, there are a number of other relevant details I choose to not mention.
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3) Your comments about the Takumakai not having or teaching the Hiden Moku or Chuden waza is interesting. I wasn't aware that Hisa and Tokimune had a falling out, but in the various AJ interviews, there are a number of references to the Mainline and Takumakai working together in cooperation, and that the Takumakai respected Tokimune as the DR headmaster. The Takumakai is reported to have subsumed the Hiden Mokuroku as restructured by Tokimune in order to standardize teachings

GARY RESPONDS: Takuma Hisa was not taught Hiden Moku or Chuden techniques and he did not teach them--period. And since Hisa received Menkyo Kaiden from Sokaku Takeda, Takeda must not have had them to teach. The Hiden Moku and Chuden were created by Takumine Takeda. To further complicate this, Okabayashi stated HE brought the Hiden Moku and Chuden techniques TO THE TAKUMAKAI! Of course, this is a chronological . . . gaff.
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Hisa was also friendly with Kondo, who was a student of Tokimune, and even gave him a copy of the Soden. If there was a secret dislike for Tokimune, that is one thing, but the Takumakai appears to have worked in cooperation with the Mainline more than any other major branch.

GARY RESPONDS: I have seen the postcards and letters from Hisa to Ohgami-Sensei regarding . . . Takumine Takeda. Most definitely, not warm fuzzies. ;-) I cannot comment on Hisa's relationship with Kondo.

4) As far as Tokimune and Hisa:
quote:

According to the biography of Hisa, I remember Hisa alluding to the fact that Sokaku Takeda DID NOT teach Tokimune Takeda his Daitoryu.

But, these letters from Hisa, I assume they are dated before this alleged referral, right? I can see where Hisa would have thought it prudent to remain on friendly terms with the current mainline from a legitimacy/political point of view, but if he really didn't respect what Tokimune was doing, it is a little strange. Unless he thought that it would give Okabayashi more legitimacy to do his own thing or something.

GARY RESPONDS: The letters and cards I saw regarding this matter were all prior to 1976. I find both possible rationales you pose substantially implausible. I KNOW that Okabayashi got ticked off at Ohgami-Sensei for his not teaching him techniques which, as directed by Hisa, should not be taught until sandan. That, money and a personality conflict caused Ohgami-Sensei to send his "disgruntled student" to his teacher, Takuma Hisa--reasonable resolution. Not happy with his progress with Takuma Hisa, he cut a chogi and went to Takumine Takeda--greener pastures.
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Mr. Gabelhouse, I for one do appreciate hearing an alternate point of view on a given subject, but with all due respect, have to say that it looks as though you/Ohgami are "out to get" Okabayashi.

GARY RESPONDS: We are only "out to get" Okabayashi to speak accurately and truthfully.
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Okabayashi has clearly stated that he just wants to teach and stay out of all the DR politics and powerplays, so I feel a little bad about dragging him into debates such as this.

GARY RESPONDS: Clearly, when one lives in a glass house, one DOES NOT wish to be involved in throwing stones. When one lives in a house of stone, well, what's the occassional rock? ;-)
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But, if he has misrepresented himself publicly, then I suppose it might be appropriate to ask him/his group for clarifications on a few of these points to avoid any misunderstandings or hard feelings.

GARY RESPONDS: I have asked some of Okabayashi's senior students to respond. I did so in December, 2002. As of yet, no one has replied. I, for one, remain wide open as to almost everything. And at the end of the day, would rather work my Ikkajo than type on a keyboard :-)

Best!
Gary Gabelhouse

Nathan Scott
17th October 2003, 00:36
Hello,


I saw the interview and also had an English teacher living in Japan translate the interview. It was a very straightforward question (rare in Japan :-) and an equally straightforward response (again, rare in Japan :-)

I see. That's different.


Takuma Hisa was not taught Hiden Moku or Chuden techniques and he did not teach them--period.

Maybe you can expand on the following, found on page 122 of CWDRM, Hisa states:

We use the shoden hyakujuhachido as a basis (one of the several terms used to refer to the 118 techniques of the hiden mokuroku). However, we have all agreed to teach techniques using the Headmaster Tokimune's method.

...Most of our students learn only up to the third of fourth technique of the 118 shoden techniques.

The mainline "emphasizes" instruction in the 118 Hiden technique, and according to Hisa's interview, the Takumakai also emphasizes instruction (to most students) in the 118 Shoden techniques. So are you saying that the Takumakai has their own set of 118 waza that are different than the mainline hiden waza, and that they didn't in fact "teach techniques using the Headmaster Tokimune's method."

Kondo says in his interview that he received instruction many times from Hisa between 1970 & 1973, and in 1972 is when Hisa gave him the Soden. Perhaps Hisa considered him his student during that time?


And at the end of the day, would rather work my Ikkajo than type on a keyboard :-)

Sounds good to me too, but isn't ikkajo part of the hiden mokuroku!? :)

Regards,

JAM
17th October 2003, 01:21
GARY RESPONDS: I saw the interview and also had an English teacher living in Japan translate the interview. It was a very straightforward question (rare in Japan :-) and an equally straightforward response (again, rare in Japan :-)
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Mr. Gabelhouse, what interview did you "see" in Japanese?

James Mullins

Chris Li
17th October 2003, 01:31
Originally posted by Gary Gabelhouse

GARY RESPONDS: We are only "out to get" Okabayashi to speak accurately and truthfully.


Does "we" mean that you are speaking for Ohgami when you post?

Best,

Chris

Gary Gabelhouse
17th October 2003, 04:30
Hello All,

Seem to have batted at a hornet's nest :-)

As to the translation--I have seen the English translations of the Japanese questions (rendered in kanji and faxed to me) issued to Okabayahi. As well, I saw the English translation of the responses.

Funny, we seem to be splitting hairs about English-Romanji-Japanese / Japanese-romanji-English translations. There has been at least one confirmation of Ohgami-Sensei being his first Daitoryu sensei (as I reported) and very little time spent with Hisa, as reported by seniors of the Takumakai.

As well, the Japanese are VERY systematic and I have seen evidence of Okabayashi's attainment of Shodan in 1972 from Ohgami Sensei. I have seen it, with my own eyes, yet he denies it, saying for public consumption he FIRST studied Daitoryu with HISA IN 1970. These are nothing more than false statements. He first studied Daitoryu under Ohgami-Sensei in 1970 and received his Shodan from Ohgami-sensei in 1972. THAT is reality, not what he reported in the magazine interview.

Also, is it me (Gary), my Teacher (Ohgami-Sensei) or both of us who are responding? I am responding with the full support of Ohgami Kenkichi-Sensei, who has seen fit to air these details. If anone wishes, do a google search for "Daibukan" and check for themselves. Also, feel free to email Ohgami-Sensei from that web site. I care not. I understand Giri and I understand self-promotion--have done a bit of it in my professional life ;-) From where I stand, and regrettably, Okabayashi has done a bit of self promotion and is an author of revisionist . . . history.

Best!
Gary Gabelhouse

JAM
17th October 2003, 14:12
Originally posted by Gary Gabelhouse
[B]Hello All,

Seem to have batted at a hornet's nest :-)

As to the translation--I have seen the English translations of the Japanese questions (rendered in kanji and faxed to me) issued to Okabayahi. As well, I saw the English translation of the responses.



Mr. Gabelhouse,

Can you give more background on the interview? Specifically: 1)who issued the questions, 2) when were they issued, 3) when were they responded to, and 4) in what format were the responses given? Thx.

James Mullins

P.S.--I, for one, am not sensitive to your postings (hornet's nest reference). It's your topic, so I'm just looking for background information.

Louis Butto
17th October 2003, 15:55
We use the shoden hyakujuhachido as a basis (one of the several terms used to refer to the 118 techniques of the hiden mokuroku). However, we have all agreed to teach techniques using the Headmaster Tokimune's method.

...Most of our students learn only up to the third of fourth technique of the 118 shoden

Dear Gentlemen

Concerning the above passage found in the CDRM by Stanely Pranin, this quote comes from the interview with Hakaru Mori who has been the head of the Takumakai, not Takuma Hisa, . I agree with Gary, from what I have seen also as Ohgami's student, Hisa taught only the Soden, and not Tokimune's Hiden Mokuroku. So the Takumakai brought in the Hiden mokuroku from Tokimune. When Hisa was getting on in age, Tokimune Takeda wanted to consolidate Daito Ryu and the Takumakai decided to include the Hiden mokuroku, probabbly from Mr. Okabayashi's influence. Quoting the same article above, Mr. Mori says, "Although Hisa sensei's style was to teach techniques in random order, we now have students master the 118.." pg 123. There are also numerous passages by Mr. Mori in that interview stating that Hisa taught the Soden and he doubted that he learned any 118 hiden mokuroku from Sokaku Takeda. After Tokimune passed away, I believe in another interview with Mr. Mori that could be found on the Aikido Jouranl website, they discovered that the techniques of the hiden mokuroku and the Soden didn't flow so well. That is, you couldn't teach one set, and go into the next.


Concrning Mr. Kondo, Mr. Hisa was already advanced in age and had trouble walking when Kondo sensei learned from him, so I suspect the teaching was more verbal However, in the DVD that Kondo sensei put out, he states that he was offered the Menkyo Kaiden from Hisa sensei. This is possible, but the postcard (in Japanese) that they show on the DVD during this explanation makes no mention of that fact, only that he received the Soden.

My personal opinion is that all these teachers are quite qualified, and everyone has their bias. The only desire, as concerns Okabayashi sensei, is to at least acknowledge Ohgami sensei as his first teacher and get on with it. Even if you break away from your teacher, you could at least mention him, it is a kind of appreciation. Okabayashi sensei could show appreciation that he was introduced to Hisa sensei by Ohgami sensei.

Anyway, poltics and human nature as it is, I don't see thhis happening.

I wish the best for all practioners.

Regards,

JAM
17th October 2003, 16:59
Mr. Butto,

Thanks for your response. As for your historical synopsis of the relationship between Takumakai and Tokimune Takeda, it comports with what Okabayashi Sensei has stated. In short, Takumakai practiced the advanced Soden, but not the "basic" Shoden/Hiden Mokuroku. He facilitated the dissemination of the "basic" techniques from Tokumune Takeda to Takumakai prior to Tokimune's death. Then, established the Hakuho Kai upon Tokimune's death due to the Takumakai's concerns regarding continued integration of the "basic" and the "advanced".

As for Okabayashi Sensei refusing to acknowledge his instruction from Ohgami Sensei, I cannot speak to that. Okabayashi Sensei is still based in Nishinomiya and I assume that Ohgami Sensei is, too. Couple that with the Takumakai presence throughout Osaka and it's safe to assume that tenured Daito Ryu practioners in the area are well aware of the previous relationship between them. However, as to Okabayashi Sensei's level of acknowledgement, it's beyond my scope of knowledge.

Mr. Gabelhouse's posting of certain portions of the interview threw me off somewhat. The interview he quotes from was informally done in Montreal (I touch on it in my first post). When he expanded on his knowledge of the interview, he mentioned kanji, Japanese translation, etc., so I'm wondering if he's speaking of something else. Drop me a PM, if you can expand on that for me.

In summation, you are right--from what I've experienced, seen and heard, the skill levels of these teachers in Daito Ryu is to be respected.

Take care.

James Mullins

Ron Tisdale
21st October 2003, 16:18
I think I'm begining to get the picture here:

a) someone (for whatever personal reason) chose not to acknowledge their first teacher...perhaps because of that teacher being under someone with more clout, perhaps not.

b) that teacher and his students are annoyed about that (and perhaps some other unstated things).

c) so they begin a forray on an internet group because?????? And they hope to accomplish what????

d) and at the same time, while hinting at other scurilous behavior, don't post it.


Suffice it to say, Nathan, there are a number of other relevant details I choose to not mention.

Yep, sounds like typical martial art backbiting to me...I will now take everything I hear from people associated with this teacher and this group with more than a few grains of salt.

Ron Tisdale

Arman
21st October 2003, 20:11
I have a question regarding the hiden mokuroku that perhaps someone here might be able to answer, in light of the comments made above suggesting that Sokaku did not teach the hiden mokuroku.

What WAS the hiden mokuroku named on the Kaishaku Soden that was given to Ueshiba by Sokaku, in the 1920's? The document lists several other parts of the DR curriculum as well.

If Sokaku did not teach the hiden mokuroku, and this was added by Tokimune at a much later date after his father's death, why is it listed as part of the curriculum on a document given by Sokaku to Ueshiba so long ago?

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

Nathan Scott
21st October 2003, 21:43
Arman,

I'm not in a position to answer your question, but I can add some perspective based on the "Hiden Mokuroku" entry in the AJ Encyclopedia of Aikido, page 39. It has a partial photo of the Hiden makimono.

The Hiden shown in the book was issued by Sokaku Takeda in September, 1910, and it titled "Daito ryu Jujutsu Hiden Mokuroku". It also shows the techniques as being referenced by number (1-118), not by the names or ordering that Tokimune later created.

So Sokaku did issue the Hiden Mokuroku, with 118 techniques, but whether or not these techniques are the same as what Tokimune taught is a different subject, to which I don't know the answer personally.

Interestingly, the ANEA entry also says that "this material was taught over the course of 28 training sessions." That's a lot of techniques to memorize in 28 sessions.

Regards,

Louis Butto
21st October 2003, 22:00
Reading Mr. Pranin's book, I do think he taught the same hiden mokuroku, because it was evolving, and by the time he got to teaching Hisa sensei, it may have changed quite a bit. So the great thing about Tokimune was that he organized what he learned into a specific curriculum, whereas originally, Hisa taught what he learned from the Soden. Of course there is some overlap.

Regarding Ron's comments, the issue is quite more complex, and not as simple as you have stated. If you wish to take what Mr. Ohgami and his students have to say with a grain of salt, or as jealousy, or what have you, that is fine and understandable. From an outsider's view. that would be the appropriate appraoch. Being human though, from the insider's perspective, it is not so easy. Best though to actually see for your self in person sometime to make an honest appraisal. The two teacher's are very different in their approach. There is much more I can say why we are "backbitting" as you put it, but it is pointless. Anyway, we really enjoy our practice, as does everone else.

Best Regards

Ron Tisdale
21st October 2003, 22:14
Hi Louis,

Well, jealousy doesn't enter into it on my part...I'm not a part of either group, though I have met Okabayashi Sensei, and personally found him to be quite a gentleman, and that was even though he knew I had some connection to Kondo Sensei's 'group' (I've heard that they are not particularly close).

And if there is much more that you can say, and it is more complex, then why start out saying


Don't know whether this belongs in Bad Budo or here.

and


there are a number of other relevant details I choose to not mention.???

Your posts (on the other hand) seem quite balanced compared to the initiator of the thread. I should hope you are happy with your practice...but if I were a member of your group, I would not be so happy with some parts of this thread.

Best

Ron

Arman
22nd October 2003, 08:03
Nathan,

Thanks for clarifying the issue. That's about as much as I know as well. It seems logical to assume that whatever Tokimune did with the curriculum, and the hiden mokuroku, the fact that it is called the same thing, with the same number of tech., it must have some fairly major similarities to what Sokaku taught (even if he did make major changes).

It at least casts serious doubt on the opposite commentary that Sokaku did not teach the hiden mokuroku, and that it was created out of whole cloth by Tokimune.

Best regards
Arman Partamian