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glad2bhere
16th October 2003, 22:14
Bear with me a bit while I introduce a bit of Korea to this Net.

One of the major resources for the Korean martial arts research is the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI published in 1795. And, among the many weapons in that volume are a pretty broad range of swords and sword forms including five forms---- 4 one-man and one two-man-- using the katana. There are also forms for the "cresent sword" (glaive), paired short swords (effectively waks), and then there is a "long sword".
Now the origins of this Long Sword are a little obscure. The Chinese claim that it came from Japan along with the Wa-Ko during the years of their raiding in the 16th Cen. (Ming Dyn). Gen Qi, Jiguang is said to have incorporated it into the training of his troops and it was supposed to have been used up on the northern frontiers against Manchu horseman. However there is a history of a Long (as much as 7 Chinese feet) sword before the Wa-Ko. So here is the question.

These swords are recorded as having existed and were recognized enough to have material published about them yet none of that material remains as an active tradition in Japan, China or Korea. Many other exotic weapons continue to be practiced such as the Wol Do which is known as the Crescent Sword in Korea, the Kwan Dao in China and approximates the naginata in Japan. There are also folks in China and Korea who are working to resurrect the Long Sword albeit as a re-constitution of old material rather than as an existing artform.

I am posting this question because, to my way of thinking were the Long Sword to have survived as a living art--- anywhere--- it would have been in Japan. In fact I seem to remember one of the characters in the movie SEVEN SAMURAI humping one of these things along at the beginning of the movie. Does anyone know why this particular type of sword never really caught on as a firm tradition--- say after the manner of the naginata or nagimaki? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

pgsmith
16th October 2003, 23:32
Hi Bruce,
The longsword traditions are not completely dead yet! They almost disappeared completely because of the Tokugawa mandate that strictly limited the size of swords to 2 shaku 3 sun.
Go to Hyakutake Colin's web site ... http://www.hyoho.com/
Click the button labeled Choken Battojutsu Kageryu, I think that will be what you are looking for. Hyakutake posts here on e-budo by the way. He is probably the only expert in that type of swordsmanship that could answer any of your questions.

Cheers,

hyaku
17th October 2003, 01:29
If I remember Bruce and I had this chat some time ago.

The efforts into research this end by those around me have more or less come up with the same results as he mentions. This goes for Japanese type words in general.

QUOTE: Now the origins of this Long Sword are a little obscure. The Chinese claim that it came from Japan along with the Wa-Ko during the years of their raiding in the 16th Cen.

My own long sword style stems from the person who founded it in the late 1500s as I mention on the website. It seems the first generation Tachibana Clan had links with the Taisha Ryu. Then again Taisha Ryu only dates from 1540.

Over this period (Sengoku 1470 - 1568) we also see that he had won the land originaly fighting at the side of Toyotomi Hideyoshi then lost it again around 1600 for around twenty years. It was indeed a strong warlike period in Japans history and for some reason they had settled for a longsword style that they considered to be advantageous.

There is a very similar copy of our weapons in Nagoya (Karatsu) Museum. It says that the original is in Korea. Size and proportions are identical but the fittings are Korean.

Hyakutake Colin

glad2bhere
17th October 2003, 03:29
Like the Good Book says, "ask and it shall be given unto you..."

There are a few things going on right now that continue to drive this inquiry.

1.) I have found a smith who will forge a decent mock-up of a "Chang Dao" or "long sabre". It will come nowhere near to the proportions mentioned in some of the Korean and Chinese legends but when has anyone ever known anything to equal a legend, ne? The length will be about 50" (Eng) inches of which 38 inches will be a blade in triangular cross-section after the fashion of a Willow Leaf sabre. No diferential hardening or anything like that. Effectively this is to use to investigate the handling properties of such a sword as it relates to the SSANG SOO DO form in Korean martial history.

2.) I also got a shot in the arm for this project last weekend when I had the privelege of working with some Tai Chi folks who put some of my own sword material to the test with their jians. It is not enough that my shorter sword material was sorely tried but I was considering yet how much more difficult it would have been to have been wielding a sword, say 36% larger.

But getting back to my original question, was the sword ordinances of the Tokugawa period the only reason that large swords would have been less favored? As I am writing this I am thinking of the transition from martial to civil use of the sword, perhaps the need for smaller dimensions owing to the probability of use in the confines of an urban rather than rural/battlefield setting? Quite a few people have discussed this on the SWORD FORUM INTERNATIONAL and I always get the impression its a lot like urban legends..... a small amount of truth inflated with a disproportionate amount of fantasy. For instance, despite what is said about their existence there are only a scant few to be found in collections and museums.

BTW: I also want to drop in at that website and thanks very much for the tip.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Brian Owens
17th October 2003, 07:15
Just a few thoughts from someone who is decidedly not an expert on the subject.

There is a long sword called a "Nodachi" (Field Sword) which may be what you are referring to.

As the state of Japan changed after the Warring States period, and mass engagements became less common while individual combat became more common, the practicality of the nodachi would have waned. Given the time factor it is understandable that there are fewer nodachi extant than, say, katana. On the other hand, how many bronze tsurugi are still around?

In Fumon Tanaka's book on Samurai Fighting Arts there are several pictures of him with a nodachi. I don't know if it is a standard weapon in any of the ryu he practices, but at least it doesn't appear to be an extinct art.

Good luck in getting your new sword made!

Steve Delaney
17th October 2003, 07:31
Don't rely on what Tanaka Fumon writes in his books. There have been threads on him before. Here's one (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=19570) to begin with.

Run a search and you'll find more.

Brian Owens
17th October 2003, 08:02
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Don't rely on what Tanaka Fumon writes in his books. There have been threads on him before.

I'll form my own opinions based on personal experience, thank you.

And I only mentioned that particular book because there are several good pictures in it that might be useful to glad2bhere.

hyaku
17th October 2003, 12:09
First I hear him mentioned related to Niten ichi ryu. Now its pictures with long swords.

Didnt mention Kageryu did he? Is this guy in for a take over bid. lol

Hyakutake Colin

glad2bhere
17th October 2003, 14:55
Dear Colin:

I had a list of questions but then I found the link page on your site and went to the "Samurai Bujutsu". There was a response that you made to someone about training aspects that answered many of the questions I would have asked so I suggest that to anyone who has more questions about Kage Ryu. There are a couple of general points though.....

1.) As with other folks I was sure that Kage Ryu had died out or been surplanted in someway by ShinKage Ryu. What I get from the material that I read on your site is that Kage Ryu is still very much alive though veiled from the general public. As I write this I am thinking of a comment you made about demonstrations in the UK where you don't do fundamentals but variations of the fundamentals. You used a Japanese term for this which I can't recall right off. I take it, then that Kage Ryu does not have a large following?

2.) I was surprized to read you describe Kage Ryu as "batto-jutsu". I have always associated that discipline with the average sized sword. But then you went on to mention how the sword movements are done in a slow, deliberate motion. There was a lot of information so I could have balled this up. The Kage Ryu kata are done with the large sized swords we are talking about, yes? Am I to understand that it also entails drawing and cutting with these oversized swords after the fashion of, say, Eishin Ryu?

3.) I was startled to see how deeply the practice of sword on your website was connected with Buddhist traditions and there were quite a few contributions relating the BOOK OF FIVE RINGS to Buddhist thought. Was that just relating to Niten Ryu or is there some generalization to Kage Ryu as well? It was wnoderful, in this era of political correctness, to see an unapologetic position relating Buddhist thought to MA practice, however I noticed that the article mentioned Shinran so I am concluding that the Buddhism espoused stops at New Land thought, yes?

4.) I was left a bit hazy on what happened to the swords which violated the mandates of the Tokugawa period. Were they modified or simply confiscated--- and possibly destroyed? I have not seen any material on large numbers of these weapons in museums or collections.

Thanks for sharing your information. Its been very difficult to find information on people who continue to practice with this style of sword under the best of circumstances.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

W.Bodiford
17th October 2003, 22:32
Proper sword length always has been subject to changing fashion. During the Nanbokucho period (ca. 1333-1392) tachi became longer and longer so that the blades of long swords (odachi) sometimes reached a length of 120-150 cm (i.e., 3.9-4.9 shaku). Nowadays those swords are called "long long-swords" (cho odachi) or "field swords" (nodachi) or "shoulder-carried swords" (seoi tachi). Thereafter, swords became shorter again. During the 1430s the uchigatana began to replace the tachi as the warrior's standard side arm. Early uchigatana (ca. 1430-1500) tend to have blades that are 70-73 cm (ca. 2.3-2.4 shaku) long. During 1500-1555 they became even shorter, with blades on most uchigatana around 60 cm (ca. 2 shaku) long and never longer than 70 cm. After 1555 blade lengths of 70-73 cm became common again. During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) the government tried to limit sword blades to 2.3 shaku (ca. 70 cm or 2 feet 3.5 inches). During the 1930-1945 the standard length for the blade of a military sword was 2.2 shaku (ca. 66 cm or 2 feet 2 inches).

There exists all kinds of theories as to why these fashion trends changed over time and what relationship they might have to changes in swordsmanship or fighting techniques. Most of these theories lack any historical evidence whatsoever. Much primary research remains to be done, and much completed research has not yet worked its way outside of specialized scholarly circles.

A while back I read a doctoral dissertation that discussed Tokugawa-period laws regarding swords. Like any set of laws, for every regulation there were countless exceptions and special conditions. The laws changed repeatedly and their enforcement varied greatly from region to region and from one social status group to another. It is impossible to draw a direct connection between what the laws specified and what actually happened among the population. Many very long swords continued to be used and manufactured throughout the Tokugawa period. Extra long swords (ca. 2.7 to 3 shaku) became especially popular after the 1830s with the development of new styles of swordsmanship emphasizing thrusts.

Speaking of legal exceptions, the one that impressed me the most is the one allowed peasants to carry long swords (katana) on festival days. The reasoning appeared to be that festivals are times when many people become intoxicated and more likely to brawl, and brawling peasants will need swords to defend themselves.

The Tokugawa laws that seem to have been the most strictly enforced were not the ones regulating swords, but the ones restricting access to firearms.

I hope this helps,

glad2bhere
17th October 2003, 22:51
Dear Dr. Bodiford:

A great post to say the least. If I could just follow up on your first paragraph with a couple of quick ones.....

1.) Is there anything to suggest that use of long swords was particularly prevalent on the island of Kyushu? I ask because much of the Wa-Ko activity (at least as much as it actually involved Japanese nationals) seems to have centered in this area of Japan, first during the 13th and 14th century for Korea and later in the 15th and 16th century for Ming China. As I mentioned in my first post Gen Qi indicated that he adopted using long swords as a response to their use by the Wa-Ko.

2.) I also understand that there is a particularly aggressive sword style used by folks from that region of Japan, and another possibility of Gen Qi using larger swords was the same rationale for using so many polearms in his squads: distance=safety.

Lastly, I am always on the lookout for resources. Colin had quite a few on his website. Are there any you might suggest for further investigation into this weapon. Please don't think that they need necessarily be limited to Japanese culture or traditions. Many thanks in advance.

Best Wishes,

Bruce