Niten-ryu Jujutsu???

[cxt]

In the starting phase of a reseach project

I have read a number of articles that refer to Miyamoto Mushashi of Niten Ryu founding a branch school that focused on jujutsu.

Has anyone heard of this school?

Does it still exsit?

Any help/direction anyone might have would be greatly appreciated.


Chris Thomas

[cxt]

Sorry for the Jujutsu post on the Sword forum.

I am in the start phase of a research project and wanted to know if anyone might be able to help me?

I have read several articles that mention a jujutsu school founded by Miyamoto Mushashi of Niten-Ryu fame.

Does anyone know of this school?

Does it still exsist?

Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

Chris Thomas

[hyaku]

There is little jujutsu in our ryu. But I am not aware of any seperate schools that have been founded that can provide substantial proof.

One never knows though. Not all budo has been listed as such.

Hyakutake Colin.

[Meik Skoss]

I don't believe there is, or was, a jujutsu ryu that was created by Miyamoto Musashi. If anything, it would have been Emmei-ryu, but it's not around any more so far as I know. Niten Ichi-ryu is the ryu that derives from what Musashi taught, but it does not include jujutsu. Colin Hyakutake may know more about it. Send him a private message and find out.

[John Lindsey]

There was a style of jujutsu called Musashi-ryu, and they claimed it was started by Musashi. I cannot say if their claims are true or not, but there was such a style at least up into the early part of our last century. I think it may have died out...

There was a famous fight between Takamatsu Toshitsugu and two members of this ryuha. Read about it here:

http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page3.html

Takamatsu did study some of the art, and added it into his Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu. These Musashi-ryu techniques mostly involve ways of flipping out of arm locks, etc, while executing strikes. It is said that Musashi came up with this idea while watching a cat roll off of a roof to avoid being attacked by a hawk. Whether this is true or not, we don't know at this time... :)

[John Lindsey]

Here is what Masaaki Hatsumi (Takamatsu's student) wrote about it:


My teacher told me that he had gained a greatlesson from this defeat in his youth. Winning by means of losing, or at least appearing to lose, was one of the startling keys to effectiveness in the Musashi school. Mushashi himself is said to havelearned this wisdom by watching a cat. He had been travelling through Yamada and rested at a tea house on the way. After a match, stretching out on a bench, he noticed a cat sleeping on the roof. He also noticed a hawk circling above the house. All of a sudden the hawk flew down attacking the cat. Rolling itself from the roof, the cat landed where Mushashi was lying and gathered itself up. This is it! ; Enlightened, Mushashi created the Musashi Ryu Taijutsu. At first, Mushashi piled up ten or more tatami mattresses and practiced rollingand pulling himself up from it as he hit the ground.He added more tatami as he progressed and finally he mastered lying on top of tatami and falling down with his feet on the ground without losing his balance. Next, he practiced being thrown and landing on his feet. Ultimately, he managed to master the ability to land on his feet after beingthrown in the air while at the same time attacking his opponent's vital body parts.Therefore the main tactic of Musashi Ryu Taijutsu is to attack the opponent at the moment one is thrown as opposed to throwing the opponent first.

[AAC]

"Niten Ichi-ryu is the ryu that derives from what Musashi taught, but it does not include jujutsu."

Errrr... maybe, I remember Colin Hyakutake writing or saying he was taught some jujutsu by Masayuki Imai sensei, headmaster (soke) of HyoHo Niten Ichiryu.

Antonio Cobb

[Meik Skoss]

Mr. Cobb,

It could well be that Colin learned some jujutsu from Imai Sensei. It is a far cry from saying it's a major part of Niten Ichi-ryu, though. Imai S. is one of the real treasures of Japanese budo, and he knows a lot of stuff in a number of arts. But "Musashi-ryu" as an art derived from Miyamoto Musashi? Doubtful. If there is a ryu of that name, it's quite possible the ryu gets its name from "Musashi no kuni," the area in Kanto around what is present-day Tokyo and Saitama.

[Jason Jennings]

Originally posted by Meik Skoss
But "Musashi-ryu" as an art derived from Miyamoto Musashi? Doubtful.

If there is a ryu of that name, it's quite possible the ryu gets its name from "Musashi no kuni," the area in Kanto around what is present-day Tokyo and Saitama.

Actually, there are several Musashi-ryu "derived" from Miyamoto Musashi listed in the good ole Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten, and if you search long enough, there are even a few private collectors who do possess Musashi-ryu densho that have survived the passage of time and Japan's climate.

There was a Musashi-ryu associated with "Musashi no kuni," the area in Kanto around what is present-day Tokyo and Saitama, but among researchers in Japan, "Musashi no kuni" is more commonly linked with folks from the area who added Musashi to their name later causing confusion in regards to the whereabouts of the historical Miyamoto Musashi during his life, as opposed to using to name their art.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by John Lindsey
It is said that Musashi came up with this idea while watching a cat roll off of a roof to avoid being attacked by a hawk. Whether this is true or not, we don't know at this time... :)

I do find it interesting that this story is almost identical to the story about Sekiguchi Jushin watching a sleeping cat fall off the roof. Not to mention, Sekiguchi-ryu and Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu seems to have had some connectin in the past.

[AAC]

Mr. Skoss,

Agreed.. your correct and certainly I did not mean to suggest jujutsu was a major area of study in Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu. (About "Musashi-ryu", have no idea at all) It would likely be incorrect to say it's existance was never part of Niten Ichi-ryu -- even as a small subset of technique.

"Imai S. is one of the real treasures of Japanese budo"... Yes, that is so true. It was a real pleasure to meet him last month, and listening to him talk about different subjects was really fascinating.. ( Niten Ichi-ryu, Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Musashi and other bits of info about Musashi -with Colin-San expert translation:) )


Antonio Cobb

[Shikiyanaka]

In BRD 1978, p. 818 is mentioned a Musashi Ryu Jujutsu, however, not in connection with Miyamoto Musashi ...

All mentioned Musashi Enmei Ryu and its respective Ryuha from different Han, however, are given as Kenjutsu plus Taijutsu.

Whilst the BRD describes (now solely) Enmei Ryu first as a Kenjutsu (p. 115-118), on p. 118 it also states an Enmei Ryu Jujutsu, but says it was a student of Musashi who developed it. And there is also an Enmei Ryu consisting of Kenjutsu and Taijutsu.

[cxt]

Just wanted to thank everyone for posting.

So far have pretty much exhausted secondary (ie. english) sources and am looking to primary material--which is going to take forever but should be interesting.

So far have been able to determine that at one time a school exsisted that traced itself to.

1- Mushashi
2- One of Mushashis students
3- Jujutsu that was NOT developed by the either of the above but
handed down THU them. Possibly Mushashi father/grandfather.
4-Handed down thu Mushashi father/grandfather WITHOUT passing
thu either of the above.

School focused pretty much on empty hand skills and some "hidden" or "small" weapons.

School does not currently exsist (don't think so anyway) Might exsist under a different name.

Portions of it might, MIGHT, have been preserved in the jujutsu of the current Niten Ichi Ryu.

At this point all I know is that SOME jutjutsu skills are taught, exactly where they come from unknown at this point.
Also would like to know from what source the bojutsu section came from.

Again, thanks for the time and attention.

Chris Thomas

[hyaku]

The 9th headmaster Aoki Kikuo Tenshin was also head of the Sekiguchi Ryu. This had never been a permenant plan and after him they went their seperate ways. So one might find certain similarities there.

Speaking for our present Hyoho Niten Ichiryu:

As most people know we have Ito, Nito, Kodachi Seiho. There is also Bojutsu and Jujutsu. The latter have fallen by the wayside bit as there is such an intense will to study Kihon in pursuit of a higher degree of expertise.

Also the tradition is only Ito Seiho is taught in the open Dojo. The rest is done in private if at all on the basis that it's should not be shown outside.

Admittedly we see Nito in demonstrations. But thats no problem. Trying to copy is akin to giving a kid a baseball and bat and asking him to emulate a pro player.

I looked at the clock in the Dojo last night. Two hours and I realized I was still teaching Ipponmme. So I went through a few more waza to finish up. Thats the way it is isnt it?

Basics, basics, basics

Hyakutake Colin

[cxt]

Hyakutake Colin


A buddy of mine mentioned the link between Sekiguchi Ryu and current Niten Ryu.

Always good to have "on the ground" information as opposed to what someone "hears."

Part of the challenge is that research time is quite limited in relation to training time.

Again thanks for your time and attention.


Chris Thomas