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Brian Owens
29th October 2003, 10:03
Can anyone tell me, is there a simple "rule-of-thumb" for when to use Nihon, and when to use Nippon.

For example, I have one video on sword polishing where the narrator calls a katana a "Nippon-to." All my other references, however, say "Nihon-to."

I do not speak or read Japanese, but I'm trying to pick up bits here and there as relate to my Budo practice, and I want to be as accurate as possible.

Thank you.

Mekugi
29th October 2003, 10:27
日本

Same word, no special methods to saying it. One way is no less proper than the other. Nippon, as it would seem, is an older pronounciation for the same kanji: "root of the sun". I believe that "Nip'pon" was a spoken toungue heavily in WWII wheras it then seems to have faded to the lighter sounding "Ni'hon". You will still hear people saying "nippon" however (as you know), and in this case everyone will know what it means without a headshake; however you will get people correcting you as a foreigner in that the "real" way to say it which is allegidly "Ni'hon".

Ultimately they are the same word, with a slight verbal fluctuation. Tony probably has more insight than I do...(I suspect he be on here next.)

TAKE IT AWAY KEYHOE!

-R

renfield_kuroda
29th October 2003, 13:06
It's very similar to asking what's the difference between "America", "The U.S.", "United States", and "United States of America".

Regards,

r e n

Snowtiger
30th October 2003, 10:12
Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
It's very similar to asking what's the difference between "America", "The U.S.", "United States", and "United States of America".

Well... America is a continent. The U.S. (of America) is a country in North-America, or have I missed something? :rolleyes:

Mekugi
30th October 2003, 11:20
What the...the characters I put up there are something weird...

{

Lessee if that works...

P Goldsbury
30th October 2003, 12:04
In Hiroshima, there is an important difference between A, ?L, q?V}, and Ђ낵. I have seen all four ways of writing the word appear on the same page in materials produced by our city government.

However, there is a 'doctrinal' basis for the difference here, which is lacking in the case of 'machi' vs. 'cho' (for ). Here it seems the strength of local custom matters much and many mistakes are made by Japanese who are not local.

Best regards to all,

P Goldsbury
31st October 2003, 13:36
This evening I asked my students for their thoughts on Nippon vs. Nihon and they all agreed that Nippon had a 'katai' (stiff/hard) feel to it. But if they were rooting for the Japanese soccer team, they would tend to shout Nippon, rather than Nihon.

In the latest edition of Kenkyusha's Japanese-English dictionary, there is no entry at all for 'Nippon' and only two beginning 'Dai Nippon': These are 'Dai Nippon Teikoku' (the prewar name of Japan) and 'Dai Nippon Teikoku Kempo' (the 1889 constitution). In the same dictionary there are over two pages of names beginning with 'Nihon...' The dictionary is arranged according to the kana syllabary system.

Of course this is not a completely reliable indication of how Japanese actually use the term.

Best regards,

Brian Owens
1st November 2003, 08:37
It sounds like the safe road is to use "Nihon" and I shouldn't offend too many people if I'm not exactly right in the subtle nuances.

Thanks for the replies.

H. Hoshino
11th January 2004, 00:03
Dear Japanese study goers,

There are so many words that we use in the daily Japanese language.

Nippon to or Nihon to ( Swords ) / I prefer Nipponto to Nihonto.

Nippon bashi or Nihon bashi ( Bridge in Tokyo )

Nippon bare or Nihon bare ( Fine sky )

Nippon jin or Nhonjin ( Japanese person )

Jutsu or Jitsu ( Skills ) / Jitsu is better and proper word.

Jitte or Jutte ( Edo police apprehending device ) / Jitte is the proper word.

Kyu or ku ( Number 9 )

In English, there are 2 pronunciations:

1. Tomatoe

2. Either

3. Neither

4. Cement

I do not know too many words since I became an US citizen since October, 1995.

H. Hoshino

On a Happy Day in San Francisco, California

PS. Accroding to our new Governor, there are 2 words for CA: California or Kalifornia

J.G. Post
29th January 2004, 00:28
In reply to Hoshino-san I have a question concerning his remark on Jutsu/Jitsu. As it is still a big problem for the world to write the characters 柔術 in roman script, nowadays one sees many versions. From the Hepburns official transcription じゅうじゅつ (jjutsu) to such variants as jujitsu, jiujitsu, etc. (Lets just not look at the many typos on the highly praised world-wide knowledge network were drifting on...)

Do you mean to say that jitsu is a more accurate transcriptionthan jutsuof the sound used in modern Japanese speech for this character?



J.G. Post
Aikid & Shint Mus-ry j
Groningen, The Netherlands

H. Hoshino
29th January 2004, 01:23
Dear Post San,

The most recent published big Japanese dictionary does not have the word " jitsu ". My garandfahter, Soujurou used to say Ken-jitsu when he practiced his swords skills in Tokyo. My father said both words were correct. The majority of the Japanese people say Jutsu more than Jitsu in a daily conversation nowadays.

Currently, I spend 9 motnths in the US and 3 months in Japan annualy. While my stay in Japan, I often watch TV. They have so many Samurai movies to watch and enjoy. I hear both words " Jitsu " and " Jutsu ".

As a Japanese language expert and historian & MA practitioner, I will say Jitsu, instead of Jutsu. However, when I write the word in English, I write both Jutsu & Jitsu. This is becoming more likley a personal preference.

The following are some more words when you look up the word " Jutsu " in the Japanese dictionary:

1. Waza ( techniques ) 2. Gi-gei ( Skills & talent ) 3. Gaku-jutsu ( Educational skills ) 4. Hou-hou ( Method or way ) 5. Tedate ( Hand on skills ) 6. Shudan ( Method ) 7. Sube ( Skills ) 8. Skills of Shugen-ja 9. Skills of Ninja or Shinobi 10. Sakuryaku ( Tactics )

Sincerely,

H. Hoshino

PS. Otsukare sama deshita

J.G. Post
29th January 2004, 01:53
Thank *you* for your reply, Hoshino-san!


I'm very happy to hear you're linguistically and historically interested in these MA-terms. In the Netherlands, there is a constant quarrel going on concerning the 'correct' use of the term for 柔術. I have no problem accepting different views, but all the more with people using bogus arguments to uphold a fantasy-story. Some hold jiu-jitsu to be the 'ancient' system; and ju-jitsu the more modern. I won't go into the details here.

After having read your reply, I was wondering if you think 'jitsu' to be bound to a specific region (e.g. Kant)? This might probably explain the two variants you heared in the chanbara eiga...


J.G. Post

J.G. Post
29th January 2004, 02:10
Dear Hoshino-san,


In Shint Musry a tradition of juttejutsu, 一角流十手術 is practised as fuzoku bud. The characters jutte read 'Ten Hands'this can also be read jitte, but Ikkaku-ry uses the former. When you refered to jutte/jitte, did you mean a difference in kanji (十手、實手), too?

Do you know which of the two words the Ed-jidai police officers used to describe their truncheon?



Thanks again, J.G. Post

renfield_kuroda
29th January 2004, 03:56
Hoshino, I am not Japanese, but I live in Tokyo and have asked every Japanese person around me, and NO ONE believes that a native speaker would call Tokyo's Nihonbashi Nipponbahsi. There is a Nipponbashi in Osaka, but it isn't ever called Nihonbashi.
I wonder about your mastery of the Japanese language -- your advice in this thread is sketchy at best, misleadingly wrong at worst.

Regards,

r e n

Jock Armstrong
1st February 2004, 14:00
Ren, me old fruit, thats because there is a strong chance that Hoshino san is none other than Hoshino harunaka of wannabe ninja fame who is a Chinese and no more Japanese than me or a stick of blackpool rock. My japanese isn't that great either but this guy is a buffoon- otsukaresama deshita I ask you- I've only ever heard that on leaving work!!

kabutoki
1st February 2004, 14:41
Hi,
I dont know a single japanese who is not joking and not seriously drunk who would refer to himself as "... a Japanese language expert and historian...".
I can understand that people pose as MA Masters without beeing one but did it come to a point where people pretend to be japanese without being it ? Weird world...or at least weird internet pseudo-reality...

Karsten

Brian Owens
1st February 2004, 19:14
Originally posted by kabutoki
...I can understand that people pose as MA Masters without beeing one but did it come to a point where people pretend to be Japanese without being it?...
When they're trying to defraud people of their hard-earned money by pretending to be a ninja master or expert sword polisher (and actually be neither), being "Japanese" -- even if they're really not -- would add to their image.

Does "H. Hoshino" fit that catagory? I don't know. Every time someone questions him he dissapears from the thread and pops up again somewhere else -- usually dropping not-so-subtle hints that we can contact him for "expert" sword appraisal or to have sword restoration work done by him...for a price, of course.

Caveat Emptor

J.G. Post
2nd February 2004, 09:19
So it seems that ?ejitsu?f is a very local dialect after all; used primarily in the Nippontowns of Hongkong and San Fransisco? :D

That might be an explanation why almost no modern JE dictionary gives jitsu as an alternative reading for ?p. Exept for the American-Ninpo-Dict, that is...

I'm sure the chambara eigo Hoshino-san was referring to must have been the epic 1997 ?eBeverly Hills Ninja?f, ft. Chris Farley? Perhaps his given name Harunaka is inspired by the Farley?fs character Haru?

This world is a confucian confusing one...

Cody
2nd February 2004, 09:38
Originally posted by J.G. Post
So it seems that ?ejitsu?f is a very local dialect after all; used primarily in the Nippontowns of Hongkong and San Fransisco? :D

That might be an explanation why almost no modern JE dictionary gives jitsu as an alternative reading for ?p. Exept for the American-Ninpo-Dict, that is...

I'm sure the chambara eigo Hoshino-san was referring to must have been the epic 1997 ?eBeverly Hills Ninja?f, ft. Chris Farley? Perhaps his given name Harunaka is inspired by the Farley?fs character Haru?

This world is a confucian confusing one...

Excuse me, but I grew up in Hong Kong, the rest of my family (except me) also trained Judo ... and I've never heard of "jitsu" used interchangeably as "jutsu" in Hong Kong.

The fact being that the two words have EXTREMELY different kanji, so I doubt any chinese would confuse the two.

And I have no idea where that Hong Kong reference came from.

-Cody

J.G. Post
2nd February 2004, 10:02
I'm sorry for having offended you, Cody.

I didn't come up with a specific place to state that it's inhabitants are ignorant of hanzi/kanji, or Japanese speech. It was simply intended as an example, and could have been any city on the world.

You're right when saying the eadings 'jutsu' and 'jitsu' have very different kanji and meanings. It was primarily meant as a reference to my earlier post, where I asked Hoshino if the 'jitsu'-reading he preferred could be a dialect used in the area he grew up in.

Again, my apologies! Oh, and all of you Fransiscans: please consider this an apology to you, too.

Brian Owens
2nd February 2004, 10:12
Originally posted by Cody
And I have no idea where that Hong Kong reference came from.

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
...thats because there is a strong chance that Hoshino san is none other than Hoshino Harunaka of wannabe ninja fame who is...Chinese...
And he now lives in San Francisco, thus the references to Hong Kong and San Francisco -- a direct allusion to the "Japanese" lessons given us by H. Hoshino.

J.G. Post
2nd February 2004, 10:20
Brian, you caught my thaughts exactly! :eek:

I was thinking of a Chinese city with some Japanese martial arts clubs, and came up with HK first. You're not some kind of ninpo-mind-boggler, are you?

If so, could you teach me? I prefer the black-belt-in-a-week video-taped lessons, since I'm a very busy guy. :D


By the way, SF was just another lucky guess... I must say I have no clue whatsoever as to the habitat of Hoshino.

Brian Owens
2nd February 2004, 10:35
Originally posted by J.G. Post
...By the way, SF was just another lucky guess... I must say I have no clue whatsoever as to the habitat of Hoshino.
Well, two "lucky guesses" in one post shows that you've got a bit o' the old ninja mind boggling in you already.

My telepathic telepathy courses are working well, but you're behind in your tuition payments. :D

J.G. Post
2nd February 2004, 10:58
:nono:

I might pay my fees if you'd send my a better copy of my 17th dan! That $%@&* Lindsey person says this one (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21437) is a wee bit false!

And my 18th and 19th dan must have been gone missing, somewhere at the post officebecause I haven't seen them yet! :rolleyes: