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Matt W.
30th October 2003, 15:32
Hello,

First time poster here. Yea me!

Anyhoo, I wasn't quite sure where to put this, but I think this should be the right forum. I would like to know if there are any detailed fighting manuals from ancient Japan? I know that in the West there are dozens of relatively detailed manuals, written and sometimes illustrated by the masters of the period. But I have heard this is not true of Eastern MA traditions. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Matt Wallis

kenkyusha
30th October 2003, 19:48
Welcome to E-budo,

No, 'masters' of the time didn't illustrate manuals for public consumption, however most classical-era Japanese arts (fighting or not) did have transmission scrolls (Densho) which contained cryptic illustrations of techniques or principles. Other than that, there are some lovely woodblock prints done by artists in the 18th and 19th centuries who observed 'open' practice (or shiai between) some more famous schools. Hope that helps.

Be well,
Jigme

Matt W.
30th October 2003, 20:18
Thank you, sir. That fits in with what I have already heard.

Also... I realize this is e-BUDO, but you wouldn't by any chance happen to know if the same is true of ancient Chinese MA too, would you?

Thanks!

glad2bhere
30th October 2003, 23:35
Dear Matt:

There was a recent (within the last year) article in either BLACK BELT or TAEKWONDO TIMES that profiled a Chinese gentleman who is making a publishing venture out of locating old manuals and republishing them. I would love to pass along the exact citation but Gawd knows it would take me a while to find it. There are also suppose to be a number of companies out of Taiwan that are doing the same thing. Again, it would take some time to dig out the names but I would bet you could do it as fast (or faster) doing a GOOGLE search. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
31st October 2003, 15:53
Dear Matt:

I start by extending my sincere apology to you. The information I gave you in the previous post was almost completely wrong. The article you may want to check on was regarding Mr. Liu, Kan-yi and was written by Brian Kennedy for INSIDE KUNG-FU magazine which, of course, is published by CFW ENTERPRIZES out of Burbank, Calif. (818-845-2656). I am very sorry that my desire to answer your question so quickly resulted in furnishing you with inaccurate information. I hope it was a small inconvenience.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Matt W.
31st October 2003, 18:04
Didn't even have a chance to check it yet, Bruce. But thans for the responses.

Joseph Svinth
1st November 2003, 21:19
In 1562, a Ming Dynasty general named Ch’i Chi-kuang (or at least his staff) began work on military handbook called Chi’hsiao hsin-shu, or "New Text of Practical Tactics." Although most of Chi’s book was devoted to battlefield maneuver and armed techniques, this was also the first Ming Dynasty text to advocate the use of Shaolin ch’uan fa during military training. "It would seem," wrote Ch’i (using Brian Kennedy’s translation of a passage in Chapter 14) "that chuan fa does not have much use in war. But the practice of chuan fa makes ["activates"] your hands, feet, and body, making them more flexible. It [chuan fa] is the foundation of all martial arts. So that is why chuan fa remains around as a school [or perhaps better said, "as a discipline"]. When you learn chuan fa, you become fast, flexible and agile." Techniques illustrated in the text include moves from the northern Shaolin sword form chi men jen. For the next 200 years, this manual would be copied in China and translated in Japan and Korea. Ray Huang's "1587: A Year of No Significance" is a definite starting point for research into the topic, and it includes some illustrations.

The Bubishi also provides samples of 18th century Southern Shaolin technique.

For the Japanese, try Musashi, Yagyu, etc. Lots of textual material, even in translation, but not so many pictures. The pictures have to be used with care, however, as they show how Kabuki actors did things, and this has as much relevance to how soldiers did thing as "Sands of Iwo Jima" has to do with "With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa."

glad2bhere
2nd November 2003, 02:14
Dear Joe:

"....Techniques illustrated in the text include moves from the northern Shaolin sword form chi men jen....."

Do you have any resources that confirm this connection? I have Dr. Yangs' book on Northen Chinese Sword but have been reluctant to put a lot of faith in some of his assertions after some of my experiences with his books on Chin Na. Some of his stuff is intersting to read but he is, after all, essentially a White Crane person and everything he writes seems to come back to that one way or another. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
2nd November 2003, 09:46
As you surmised, I got that from Yang. I agree that his stuff needs to be taken with a grain of salt, so I suppose we should check with Brian Kennedy's sources. If this one also fails to pan out, then I suppose we need to add Yang's books to my long list of disappointments.

Joseph Svinth
2nd November 2003, 22:04
Brian is going to doublecheck with his sources, but his understanding is that General Ch'i's system borrowed techniques from as many as 23 northern Shaolin schools, taking what the military trainers thought was best from each. The idea was that the training would promote agility, improve physical conditioning, and instill a combative spirit.

As for Yang, with 23 systems, he could easily be correct that the form he mentioned came from that specific school. However, the implication that comes across in English is that this school provided the foundation for the entire system, and that is not correct.

I have updated my notes to incorporate the change.

glad2bhere
2nd November 2003, 23:05
Dear Joe:

Thanks for checking that. I remember a resource that listed 16 styles which Gen Qi identified in his writing as having value. Much has been made of the fact that he did not identify a "Shaolin style" as such in his writing. There is also something that came up about how the stick fighting, for which the Shaolin Monastery was most noted, had deteriorated in quality to the point that a general offered to sponsor monks with his troops in the hopes of raising the standards.

Now, the reason that I share this is that in Kang Gewus' "Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts" (Plum Publ,1995) 23 arts are identified which DOES include a "Shaolin Temple Quan" (sic)(see pg 59). I have, again, learned to take this resource with more than a grain of salt, but it does make for curious speculation about whether or not there was a distinct and discrete Boxing art characteristic of what was practiced at the monastery or not.

BTW: Does Brian have an on-going relationship with the gentleman I mentioned earlier. There are a number of different avenues I would like to discuss with both Brian and his friend regarding locating books in the PRC and Taiwan. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
3rd November 2003, 01:37
Bruce --

Check your e-mail.

glad2bhere
3rd November 2003, 18:16
Joe:

Thanks. I'll let you know what I hear.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
11th November 2003, 13:38
Dear Matt:

Just got my new copy of CLASSICAL FIGHTING ARTS (#2) which is the new incarnation of the old DRAGON TIMES magazine. Ther is an excellent article on Mr. Liu Kan-Yi written, once again by Brian Kennedy and with Elizabeth Guo (see pg 45). You might want to check this out.

Best Wishes,

Bruce