Train the Stick to Learn the Blade?

[Sharp Phil]

Train the Stick to Learn the Blade? (http://www.themartialist.com/1103/sticktoblade.htm)

http://www.themartialist.com/images/alandphilandscott.jpg

[bruceb]

Training with sticks, as in Aikido we use wooden sword (bokken) and four foot poles (JO) to transition to the simpler days of training without metal weapons or edged weapons, but everything should transition to empty hand.

The difference in edged weapons is that they have the option of cutting not just vital areas but inflicting the damage of slicing through muscles when the opportunity presents itself. The ideas of not just striking becomes present, but the slicing motion of the blade is added to increase the depth and severity of the cut. What some people forget is that this same motion is adapted to empty hand techniques and to many manipulations or practice techniques within the practice style or system. All good techniques have room for pressure point applications within their movements.

The differences of stick are the allowances for strikes, the opponents being able to grab the stick, the stick being a weapon of blunk trauma that must be used to strike vital areas to have full effective impact, and that wooden beaters (wooden replicas of weapons) are the next evolution of the sticks. For a training platform, it does provide one with a training tool that can transition from blade to empty hand without compromising either the movement or the effectiveness of impact.

Try not to clash sharp edge to sharp edge .... even when using a wooden substitute practice weapon.

Not that this is as important as learning the basics of movement
for the beginner, but learning not to clash sharp edge to sharp edge of blades will become important as the basic movements of your style are taken to heart. Simply because two sharp edges clashing together will not only chip the blade, but there is an excellent chance of shattering /fracturing the blade which is not a fun thing to do or see.

I am glad to see that Mr. Elmores blade/ stick training is progressing ....

[bruceb]

Thar be pirates with sticks and swords out there.

(TRICK OR TREAT!)

[Sochin]

Not for me thanks... :)

I have found that using an edge or a point requires different muscles and dynamics than the stick does. It even demands a different mind set. The stick may provide elementary angles of attack, but they are a dojo tool to keep the class busy and flowing rather than a fighting tool.

Then, once you get to contact with a partner, friends who actually do sword work (I don't, but I wannna! :)) claim that the absence of an edge leads to very bad habits of lack of edge control.

So, I know I don't punch like I hit with a stick, I don't cut / slash like I hit with a stick, so I believe these are separate skills that augment each other but "learning one does not mean learning the other."

[Sharp Phil]

I'm fairly certain I addressed these ideas in the article, Ted. (I don't agree about the mindset being different regardless of the weapon with which you seek to deliver potentially lethal force to someone else.) I read the same posts as did you on the Animal List and they inspired this particular piece.

[Soulend]

I don't know anything about FMA, but I would look in to either a shoto bokken in the appropriate length, or cutting down a katana-sized one to the appropriate length. They have an 'edge' and a point, are oval-handled for edge awareness, and have been used for centuries for sword training. If a straight-backed tool (like a machete) is desired, they have so-called "ninja" versions as well. Bokken give more of a feel of cutting rather than whacking.

[Jason Couch]

While I understand the points made by critics of this training theory, they must in turn understand that proponents of this idea do not present it as the only way to learn the use of edged weapons or to deploy those weapons in self-defense. It is, however, one sensible way, because it capitalizes on training time and maximizes the utility of that time. Learning one body of principles causes less confusion and makes teaching easier and more efficient.

You can, in fact, train the stick to learn the blade.


Training with a stick teaches you how to swing a stick. Test-cutting and swinging edge-oriented blades (even if aluminum), teaches you to cut with a knife. If you want a faster and more efficient learning curve for a knife, you use a knife. Vice-versa for a stick.

[Sharp Phil]

Well, that's certainly a conventional approach.

[Jason Couch]

Not really, most FMA schools use the stick and rarely, if ever, pull out a sword or machete.

[Yojimbo558]

Hi there,

I think that training with sticks is great for simulating the blade & I utilize both in my training.

For critics who state that you have to use a blade for blade training I counter that if you want to achieve a similar feel then use a wooden sword for it that simulates the curve. Granted the shinai's straight design or a straight stick for that matter won't let you simulate the correct angles etc...but if you want to there's curved sticks you can use to capture the feel.

As for jumping right into blade training, I would rather have students learn the correct angles of drawing than start them off with a metal blade. For example, a sword sharp enough for cutting practise if improperly drawn will put pressure on the saya & it will cut right through the saya and cut the hand holding the scabbard ( Obata Sensei of Shinkendo showed us a tape of an iai demo, where one high level dan messed up on his demo...split the saya & cut his left thumb off while demonstrating a cut as he leaped to his feet from seiza, and was drawing while turning a 180 degrees to cut his target ).

While practise swords lack the ability to do this immediately improper drawing can still damage the blade and let it slowly saw its way through the saya over numerous poor draws that push the blade against the saya...and overtime will enable it to cut through the saya if this habit isn't corrected.

If you want to you can accurately simulate blades with sticks...and better yet you can fix the bad habits of your students here before they move on to dealing with blades. But that's just my perspective.

Eric L. Bookin

[Shitoryu Dude]

While I don't think that stick work will make you an expert with the blade just by transferrence, it will give you an "edge" on those who don't have the background.

I prefer to think of the stick as just a stick. Which is still one of the easiest weapons to aquire and quite deadly.

:beer:

[Yojimbo558]

Hi Harvey,

I agree with you completely. Sticks won't make you an expert with blade just by transference...but they can be utilized to develop familiarity and a better understanding before transitioning to blade work.

I'm fond of sticks my self, and they are great weapons in their own right :)

Eric L. Bookin

[Jock Armstrong]

In doce pares arnis the stick is learned first, then bladed weapons are substituted. The stick doesn't teach you how to "cut" per se but it gives you a franework to work on. The Filipinos don't necessarily cut the same way as JSA practitioners, perhaps because the bolo [machete like weapon] is more of a chopper. Also, different FMA groups tend to be from different parts of the Philipines and traditionally different weapons [this also accounts for the plethora of names- arnis de mano. escrima, kali etc].
Kali tends to have more arabic influences while arnis tends to be more spanish oriented. BTW this is only my observation so if I'm wrong please correct me.