PDA

View Full Version : Hojojutsu (tying arts)



Shinobi
23rd June 2000, 07:37
Does anyone have any info on Hojôjutsu organizations in Japan? Were there located, etc? Someone recommended Taihojutsu as it includes Hojôjutsu I believe!

Thanks!

Kendoguy9
24th June 2000, 07:19
you might want to try a Shindo Muso-ryu group. they often teach hojojutsu at higher levels.

gambatte!!!

Aaron Fields
27th June 2000, 20:01
Same question as above, except in the states? Even better-yet, the west (left) coast?

Neil Yamamoto
28th June 2000, 02:16
Hey Aaron, How it going?

The only real hojo out here on the west coast that I am aware of is with Don Angier. Maybe some one else that I don't know about.

Lil Dave
12th July 2000, 19:54
Hojojutsu is the art of tieing up people, if I'm not mistaken. Is it just a series of practicing knots? Perhaps techniques for immobilizing someone while you tie them up. If someone would be so kind as to explain this to me.

David A. Buck

Ulf Lehmann
12th July 2000, 21:35
Hi David,
to my mind, the Ittatsu ryu is one of the best contemporary resources of Hojo jutsu. The ryu is a advanced level of Shindo muso ryu and existent since 17. century.
There are 25 different tying methods or kata (of 3 level) in Ittatsu ryu. The theorie is to tying a attacker after a counter and immobilisation by other weapons or unarmed technics. So - incapacitating was not a part of Hojo jutsu. The kind of tying was depending of the social status of the attacker and not free chose of the warrior. A real difficult art...

Regards,
Ulf Lehmann

Neil Hawkins
13th July 2000, 01:42
David to add to what Ulf said. Hojojutsu was an integral part of many Jujustu and Bujutsu systems and the variety of techniques is great. Some styles used special ropes, others the sageo from their sword or the obi from the victims waist.

They range from quick effective capturing methods to ornate ways of securing prisoners. Don Angiers tape on the subject has a lot of good info. There are special knots, but the major consideration is how the body works, so that the victim is secured and cannot escape. Many techniques result in the victim strangling himself or tightening the bindings when he struggles.

Some of the elaborate methods for securing a prisoner are difficult to tie and require some co-operation from the victim. The most effective are performed after a takedown and do not matter if the victim helps or struggles. There are some modern applications, in that the pins can be used when handcuffing, but few schools still teach the tieing methods, and even those restrict it to senior students.

Hope this helps some.

Regards
Neil

Ulf Lehmann
13th July 2000, 12:12
Well,Neil - that´s it. But ... I´m not sure because I´m afraid that´s a sageo is a little bit too short for all tying methods. A sageo is ca. 1.5 to 2 meters and the most ryu use a cord of 5 to 6 meters ( that´s the same measure like a traditional obi in the edo-period - what do you said). A rope of this length is more useful and better to handle.
On the other way - in battlefield can be a sageo the next and best idea...

Regards
Ulf Lehmann

Neil Hawkins
14th July 2000, 02:33
I agree that the standard sageo is too short to do any of the common hojojutsu tying methods. But it can still be used. The 'handcuff' knot can be tied with a sageo and there are a number of ways that you can then secure him reasonably well. One method is to secure the hands behind the back and tie them off to the obi, this requires very little rope and is fine for short term, supervised confinement.

The whole point is secure him, then if necessary re-secure him later, in most instances the need to secure would be short term until he was handed over to someone else. If it was your job to transport prisoners, you'd obviously carry the rope. :)

Regards

Neil

Ulf Lehmann
14th July 2000, 10:14
Yea - that´s real practical thinking. Sometimes, it´s difficult to transfer the know-how from the dojo to the battlefield...
Thank you for the the message.

regards,
Ulf

Ulf Lehmann
16th July 2000, 14:38
BTW, there are some other ryu who train Hojo jutsu? I remember at Takenouchi ryu, but I´m not sure...

It´s very difficult to get infos about this art (also in Japan). For illustration a nice but true story: A friend looking for a book about "Hojo jutsu" in a bookshop in Tokyo. He ask for it - but the lady on the store don´t know a art of this name. So he make a description - - - The lady is shocking! This guy looking for a book about sado-maso-sex...

Regards
Ulf Lehmann

16th July 2000, 17:36
Ulf,

That story is accurate. A friend and I were in a bookstore near the Ueno train station once, just browsing when I picked up a book with a samurai doing a hojo tie on the cover. I thought "cool" a book on hojo. When I opened it up all the pictures on one page were woodblocks of samurai doing hojo while the opposite page were of nude women tied up with the same tie. I almost dropped the book I was so shocked. My friend, already aware of this started laughing. He said "Interesting isn't it. Intricate hojo will probably survive not in the martial arts world but instead in the S&M world."

I thought, Boy, your're not in Kansas anymore Toto!

ghp
16th July 2000, 17:41
When I opened it up all the pictures on one page were woodblocks of samurai doing hojo while the opposite page were of nude women tied up with the same tie.

So, Toby ......

How much did you pay for the book??

Regards :D
Guy

John Lindsey
16th July 2000, 18:48
I just did a quick web search on hojojutsu, and came across this..ah..link:

http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/jbond.htm

From there, I jumped to:

http://members.theglobe.com/gaeschl/susp.htm
(WARNING WARNING: CONTAINS NUDITY)


Hmm....

Neil Yamamoto
16th July 2000, 20:05
A number of years ago, I think about 1991 or so, Don Angier told me that he had done a workshop on hojo for a group that was extremely interested in hojo. Paid very well and asked lots of questions. Maybe Bondage and Discipline groups wil be the last place to learn authentic hojo jutsu in the future. :)

16th July 2000, 22:46
Guy.

ROFLMAO! I'm just a shy little old boy from Texas.

:)

Tobs

Tony Peters
16th July 2000, 23:08
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Guy.

ROFLMAO! I'm just a shy little old boy from Texas.

:)

Tobs

Hell if that's the only way to learn how to do Hojo why not be entertained as well?...I'd of bought it.

Greg Palmer
21st July 2000, 07:45
There is a section in the Tsutsumi Ryu Sandan grading on Hojo Jitsu. It has a small number of techniques dealing with subduing and then tying a prisoner and removal from the scene. There are a few techniques which restrain a prisoner for transport over longer distances after they have been dealt with.
They are traditional in that they have been a part of the Tsutsumi Ryu for a long time but Tsutsumi does not use kata form for the training relying on reflex instead.
Hojo does exist but the only other example I have seen is the tapes from Don Angier.
Tsutsumi Ryu is only taught (as far as we know) in Perth Western Australia
Regards
Greg Palmer

Lil Dave
26th July 2000, 03:58
Do the Don Angier videos you spoke of show one how to apply hojojutsu?

Dave Buck

Neil Hawkins
26th July 2000, 09:22
Yes they do but the models aren't as good as the ones in John's link! :D I thought it was hard finding people to practice with, I think I'm training with the wrong groups!

Mr Angiers tapes are ok but if your buying them I'd skip #1 and just get #2 as everything is pretty much repeated in that.

Regards
Neil

MarkF
26th July 2000, 10:51
"idle hands are the devils....!
Geez, John, is this what you do with your time?:D

Yojimbo558
30th July 2000, 01:44
Eric Weil,

Don Angier has two videos out on Hojojutsu, and they are fantastic!

To answer some of the others questions, in regards to requiring co-operation. The law enforcement officers would take all sorts of advantages of the samurais dress code. In addition to the Jutte, they had a weapon ( can't remember the name ) that is kind of like a yari with a series of heads instead one spear point. These would be either thrust into the sleeves of his kimono and then rapidly spun ( turning their own clothes into a form of a restraint or thrust into the pant legs of their hakama where they could be violently pulled into the splits.

Whatever manner was used in making the arrest, a blade would be held to the prisoners throat while by one of the policemen while the others bound him ( granted they didn't always have back up but this was during an ideal arrest ).

As to the Sageo's length. Typically when used for tying, those individuals had the foresight to use long sageo's as opposed to the typical length.

At any rate Don Angiers tapes are very much worth getting if your interested in furthering your knowledge in this area.

Eric Bookin

Lil Dave
4th August 2000, 07:05
Eric,
The spear you are thinking of is the sodegarami (translated 'sleeve tangler' by Oscar Ratti in his book "Secrets of the Samurai").
About the Don Angiers tapes, where may I get them, and what are they called? I am very interested. In fact it was just a little while ago that some friends of mine and I tried to tie each other up and couldn't make it work.

David A. Buck

Richard Elias
4th August 2000, 21:42
Dave,

"About the Don Angiers tapes, where may I get them, and what are they called? I am very interested. In fact it was just a little while ago that some friends of mine and I tried to tie each other up and couldn't make it work."

HHmmm, Really...was it fun anyway?

You can get all of the Yanagi Ryu video tapes through Bugei Trading Co. (www.bugei.com) The hojo ones are called "Hojojutsu" Vol. 1&2. I'm not sure but I think it sell for around $45.00.

Yojimbo558
5th August 2000, 05:31
Hi Dave,

Richard beat me as to revealing how to order the Don Angier tapes...their great, as an added suggestion what I did, for when I don't have someone to practise on was to go to an art supply shop. You can get one of those posable human figures that people use to practise scteching for manintaining proper proportions ( about 1' tall ). I picked up a ball of twine and practise on this. Just an idea.

Eric Bookin

Richard Elias
5th August 2000, 12:27
Eric,

"You can get one of those posable human figures that people use to practise scteching for manintaining proper proportions ( about 1' tall ). I picked up a ball of twine and practise on this. Just an idea."

That's exactly what we use.

But it's always better if you don't have to do it alone.;)

Christiaan
6th December 2001, 08:52
As my question seems to have disappeared with the last re-construction of this site, I pose it once more, hoping to receive some more information:

Who can shed a light on hojojutsu? I know a bit about the place it holds in the Shinto Musoyu jo-curriculum, but that's about it.

domo arigato gozaimashita!

Brently Keen
7th December 2001, 16:18
Don Angier, of Yanagi-ryu is one of the most knowledgable instructors anywhere on the art of hojojutsu. He has two video tapes available on the subject, that I'd recommend to anyone interested. Keep in mind that Yanagi-ryu may be quite different than Shinto Muso-ryu, but I think the tapes also serve as a great introduction to the art, and give a little glimpse into it's elegance and depth of sophistication as well as it's practical use and function.

These tapes as well as many others are available from Bugei Trading Co.

http://www.bugei.com

Brently

TysonWalters
14th December 2001, 01:04
I was looking around the internet and came accross a book on the subject if you are interested Christiaan.
http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page16.html
The title of the book is Shokai Hojo and is around the bottom of the page. Hope this helps.

T. Walters

TysonWalters
14th December 2001, 02:56
Mr. Lee, do you have links to sites that may carry those other books? I myself am quite interested in this subject as well, and would like to add to my library perhaps. Additionally, if you have the time, I would love to hear a more indepth review of the book by Mizugoshi Hiro. :toast:

Thanks,

T. Walters

Christiaan
14th December 2001, 09:53
Thank you very much!

It happened I came across some jodo-pictures with one showing a hojojutsu-tie at Rick Polland's site www.jodo.com (http://www.jodo.com). Maybe, if he is around, he is able to shed some light on the subject as well...

Warm regards

Mark Brecht
14th December 2001, 15:32
Daniel,

thank you for mentioning us. Yes, we can provide all the books you mentioned. We also carry the Shokai Hojojujutsu book (our price is US$35).

I will post more info.

Here is a pic of the Fujta book more info is coming up tomorrow, sorry gotta run right now...

JIGOKU
24th September 2002, 13:54
Hi everybody,

I am looking currently for books, publications on the art of hojo jutsu. are there any specific books ou there, that cover this subject ?

I appreciate every help


respectfully

poryu
24th September 2002, 14:54
HI

there is one by Fujita.

I have it but its all in Japanese and the drawings are sort of the finished product.

I would suggest the best option are the videos by the Yanagi Ryu (Soke Don Angier) you can get them from www.bugei.com.

I have two of them and the first is excellent, the second was a waste of money. I found the first have of the video just showed the first video again. However, the instruction on these tapes is outstanding and very graphical.

If you search the web there were once two excellent sites that had some info on the history of hojojutsu.

Be warned that searching for Hojojutsu on the web tends to lead to porn sites. Also search under Nawa shirabi

JIGOKU
24th September 2002, 16:37
Paul,

Thanks a lot for the helpfull information !

Regards

T. ALVAREZ
24th September 2002, 18:21
Stefen,

We will be conducting a seminar on Hojo Jutsu w/ Angier Sensei during the last weekend in november. If there's anyway for you to make it you won't be sorry.
Drop me an e-mail for more info.

BIG TONY
Senpokan Dojo
bigtony@senpokan.com
Bugei Trading Co.

Althaur
24th September 2002, 18:41
Mr. Alvarez, is the seminar on the Thanksgiving Day weekend? Could you please send me the info on it? My wife and I would love to come down to play. Nothing like a weekend of tying each other up. ;) We had to miss Angier Sensei's last seminar up her in the SF bay area. I might be able to scrounge up a few more of us weirdos in black gi's if there is room. Thanks in advance for the info.

Althaur1@aol.com

Guy LeSieur
24th September 2002, 18:55
Bonjour M. Marcec

You can try (www.buyubooks.com), they have some books in japanese on the subject. I can vouch for them, they give an excellent service.

Joseph Svinth
25th September 2002, 06:36
While waiting for Big Tony to mail you Don Angier's videos, you and the Missus might try the local BDSM dungeon. See, for instance, the links at http://ropelover.com/bodybound/ .

Cady Goldfield
27th September 2002, 19:17
:laugh::nw: :toast:

Where the heck do you find that stuff, Joseph?!

yamatodamashii
2nd October 2002, 11:45
From following a link from Joe's site:

"Bad Girls is a social and educational BDSM organization with an emphasis on safe, sane and consensual woman-to-woman BDSM. The group is open to all self-identified women over the age of eighteen."

And there's *nothing wrong with that*.



:up:

T. ALVAREZ
2nd October 2002, 18:15
Althaur,
Yes the seminar is in that weekend. I will forward you the information regarding the seminar. Sorry for the delay in getting back to ya.

Hey Joe, I could swear that one of those girls in that web site was Neil! Well maybe Doug.

Anyway, for all that are interested. I have posted all the information in the Aikijujutsu and Sword arts forums.
The seminar consists of Jutte and Tessen as well.

Joseph, drop me an e-mail if you are interested in comming down for the seminar.

BIG TONY
Senpokan Dojo
bigtony@senpokan.com
Bugei Trading Co.

Walker
3rd October 2002, 07:52
Hey Big Tony,

That photographer promised he would blur the faces! er, I mean what are you talking about? :(

So what about the rumor that your training partner gets an extra rope? :p :D This could get a little too interesting.... and with Don wandering around muttering ”magic” with a twinkle in his eye.... Oh no. :eek:

Joseph Svinth
3rd October 2002, 08:41
Cady --

To find that site, I simply channeled Neil. Neil knows all the good places.

Tony --

Thanks for the offer, but in all seriousness, last month I spent all my mad money on a trip to Fairbanks, Alaska.

That said, I have to admit that one of the better gifts I ever gave a woman was a set of black Peerless handcuffs. (Gave new meaning to the extension of ki, it did.)

Jack B
3rd October 2002, 15:18
TMI, I am sure!

___________

Jack Bieler
Denton, TX

Bugei-Ki
6th November 2003, 13:41
Can any one recommend some good books/videos on the subject or even a web site that can offer information especially on the tying of the knots. also i am having trouble locating techniques that incapacitate the legs or even 1 leg in this art i need some pictures as a guide, HELLLLLP

larsen_huw
6th November 2003, 13:59
Originally posted by Bugei-Ki
Can any one recommend some good books/videos on the subject or even a web site that can offer information especially on the tying of the knots. also i am having trouble locating techniques that incapacitate the legs or even 1 leg in this art i need some pictures as a guide, HELLLLLP

Hoho Jitsu?

Isn't that what Santa teaches? :D

Are you sure you don't mean Hojo Jitsu?

Mike Williams
6th November 2003, 14:02
Wanting to improve our love-life, are we? ;)

Cheers,

Mike

glad2bhere
6th November 2003, 14:58
FWIW:

Sensei Angier or the Yanagi-ryu has a couple of videos

"Hojo-jitsu" volumes 1&2 distributed by the DRAGON VIDEO LIBRARY, 1436 E. 53rd Street, Long Beach, Calif 90805. I think I originally purchased them through BUGEI TRADING Co. which most people identify as a very reputable source for Japanese MA items. Sorry I don't have contact info for Bugei but they have a great website and I am sure the contact info would be there.

Best Wishes,


Bruce

Joseph Svinth
7th November 2003, 04:18
Try http://www.nawashibari.com/links.shtml and http://www.ropelover.com/bodybound/ .

After reading those, you'll know why Harvey likes this part of the world. A clue -- it isn't the Starbucks.

Pete Knox
7th November 2003, 05:54
Originally posted by larsen_huw
Hoho Jitsu?

Isn't that what Santa teaches? :D

Are you sure you don't mean Hojo Jitsu?

Actually, It's a very rare and deadly form of combat that uses Ho-hos, the weapon of chocolatey goodness provided to us by the folks at Hostess. Practitioners often cross-train in the philosophical style of Twinkie-Do as well, striving to become one with the cream filling. ;)

Julian Gerhart
7th November 2003, 06:29
Originally posted by Pete Knox
Actually, It's a very rare and deadly form of combat that uses Ho-hos, the weapon of chocolatey goodness provided to us by the folks at Hostess. Practitioners often cross-train in the philosophical style of Twinkie-Do as well, striving to become one with the cream filling. ;)
little known fact:
I hold the rank of 9th dan in kapu-keki ryu chew to suwaro jutsu (say it out loud with japanese pronunciations)

Bugei-Ki
7th November 2003, 09:04
Yes ok so i mistyped and need to read through my posts a bit more carefully, point taken! Thanks for the info though i am sure santa as teaches Elfshin Ryu. Perhaps i should have mentioned that the information is need for a grading as i am required to learn techniques from this art but although i am being taugh just wanted a reference for further study, dont know what you guys will make out of that, i dread to find out.
Adam Lindop
Embarrased but quick to learn

larsen_huw
7th November 2003, 09:44
Originally posted by Bugei-Ki
Yes ok so i mistyped and need to read through my posts a bit more carefully, point taken! Thanks for the info though i am sure santa as teaches Elfshin Ryu.

...

Adam Lindop



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :toast:

Good one.

Don't take any of the ribbing seriously ... we just get our humour where we can find it.

Have you tried typing "Hojo Jitsu" into Google (or whatever you preferred search engine is). You might have to pick through some dross, but there's bound to be something worth reading there.

Mike Williams
7th November 2003, 09:54
Originally posted by larsen_huw
[BHave you tried typing "Hojo Jitsu" into Google (or whatever you preferred search engine is). You might have to pick through some dross, but there's bound to be something worth reading there. [/B]

There's bound to be lots worth reading!!!

The Nawashibari site Joe mentioned is excellent, albeit NOT MA related, and NOT work safe.

Cheers,

Mike

txhapkido
7th November 2003, 10:58
Posted by Bugei-Ki:

Can any one recommend some good books/videos on the subject or even a web site that can offer information especially on the tying of the knots

What knot!:D

monkeyboy_ssj
7th November 2003, 11:02
Originally posted by Mike Williams
There's bound to be lots worth reading!!!

The Nawashibari site Joe mentioned is excellent, albeit NOT MA related, and NOT work safe.

Cheers,

Mike

hmmm whenever I search for for this in Japanese it always come up with words like Senzuri...interesting :rolleyes:

Cheers

StanLee
7th November 2003, 12:31
I'm not even going to try and search for it whilst at work!

But I have seen on TV the foremost expert (Japanese of course) tie up a pretty young thing...

:cool:

glad2bhere
7th November 2003, 13:09
"....But I have seen on TV the foremost expert (Japanese of course) tie up a pretty young thing..."


ah....er... I think thats called "bondage" and seems to have another set of goals from martial arts altogether. :-)

BTW: Don't feel too bad if the research pickings are scanty. There are a number of Korean MA practitioners who still demonstrate rope/belt techniques yet it is almost impossible to find an intelligent documented source for this material. Same goes for offensive/defensive knife techniques. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Pete Knox
7th November 2003, 19:44
Originally posted by Bugei-Ki
i am required to learn techniques from this art but although i am being taugh just wanted a reference for further study

Secrets of the Samurai by Ratti and Westbrook touches on it, if I remember correctly. While you wouldn't be able to learn techniques from that book, it would give you a bit on the art's historical perspective, and checking the bibliography in the back might prove rather fruitful, by giving you some starting points for your research.

Neil Hawkins
8th November 2003, 01:24
There are few methods for securing the legs, but often they are left free so that the prisoner can be led to where ever.

All the methods I have seen are tied seperately after the torso and arms are secured, this is so that they can be easily removed to move the prisoner.

There are a couple that have the prisoner lying down, and a few that have him seated, most that I have seen only really tie one leg, either leaving the other free, or relying on one leg to bind the other.

Acouple of simple ones.

If the free end of the cord is at the front of the prisoner make him sit cross-legged and simply tie the lower ankle after passing the rope inside the upper knee. This effetcively stops the other leg from being disentagled and keeps the prisoner in a sitting position.

If the free end of the rope is at the back, lie the prisoner on his face and place the left ankle behind the right knee, then bend the right leg back and tie the right ankle to the left thigh, if tied tightly enough this is both extremely uncomfortable and restrains both legs, otherwise just tie the one leg a little more loosely which prevents escape but does allow the prisoner to sleep.

Hope this helps.

Neil

Bugei-Ki
10th November 2003, 14:43
Sorry for the delayed reply guys, i was away in eire for the weekend.
Thanks for all your help very useful but keep it coming as i need all the help i can get. Does anyone have any info on the Enshin Ryu style of swift rope useing the Sageo?




Adam Lindop
signature to come soon

kabutoki
17th November 2003, 18:58
Hello,
you mean something like this ?

http://www.bujinkan-fl.de/hojo.jpg

This was taken from the book "zukai hojojutsu" by fujita seiko. It lists a series of these techniques.

hth
Karsten

Bugei-Ki
22nd November 2003, 18:01
Unusuall never seen these types of Hojo before, although the swift rope of Enshin Ryu that i have seen used only the Sageo, apparently the sageo of this school is longer than that of others and was removed from the Kurigata before the sword was placed in the belt, it was rolled up and placed about the person of the user in order to be easily accessible for tying up the prisoner. would you be able to confirm which school the Hojo in your picture came from as i feel that this would be worth more investigation?








Adam Lindop

kabutoki
22nd November 2003, 18:16
Hello,
this particular part is from the Ichidenryû 一傳流. Because of some pc trouble I cannot supply more pics or info until monday.
I will try to fix asap. Stand by :)

Karsten

glad2bhere
22nd November 2003, 19:00
I don't know about using the sageo for binding tho I suppose its a possiblity. In the form of Kumdo that I practice the cords are swaged across the abdomen and fastened to the waist of the dob bok with a slip knot. I can imagine that if one were to take a prisoner with a lock or pin that can be maintained one-handed it might be possible to undo and use the sageo.

BTW: Sensei Don Angier demonstrates a cord carry in his video tape that includes rifting the cord into a neat bundle and carrying it in the sleeve of the uniform. The arm is passed through a pre-set loop. Apparently the application is that a person might be subdued and held with a single hand-grip as the loop is fed down the arm over the lock and to the persons' wrist to initiate the binding. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

kaishaku
22nd November 2003, 21:50
I have not seen the video by Mr.Angier, but the attached picture may be a similar waza. (Hopefully, it attached)

Regards,

F. D. Smith

glad2bhere
23rd November 2003, 01:11
Yep, thats the idea.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Neil Hawkins
23rd November 2003, 01:52
I have been told, and I can't remember at present who it was, that the shorter ropes used were the cords used to tie the sleeves of the Kimono back, these cords (they have a name which also escapes me at present) were often old sageo or made of the same material and so were confused with the actual sageo which usually woudn't be removed from the saya.

I have not seen anything like the ties with the sageo complete with sword shown above, and am intrigued, though I would suggest that you would use the captives sword or sageo if you were doing this.

Regards

Neil

Richard Elias
23rd November 2003, 03:59
The cord used to tie back the sleeves is called a tasuke. Sometimes a sageo was used as a tasuke when nothing else was available and the sleeves needed to be out of the way. Tasuke were not only used to tie the sleeves back for fighting but also when doing chores. Housewives would use then when cleaning around the house and cooking etc.

There are simple ties that can be performed with either the sageo or a tasuke... or the sageo when being used as a tasuke. We have a simple method of removing the tasuke and tying a loop in it for begining a tie, all done with one hand so that you can hold the captive with the other.

Ron Beaubien
23rd November 2003, 12:48
Hello,

Richard Eilas wrote:


"The cord used to tie back the sleeves is called a tasuke."

Actually, unless the word "tasuke" is a local dialect version of the word that I am not familiar with, I believe it is incorrect.

In Japanese the commonly used word for the cord used to tie up the sleeves of a kimono is a "tasuki" (æF).

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Richard Elias
23rd November 2003, 16:08
Well, not being fluent in Japanese I cannot dispute your pronunciation of "tasuki" as opposed to "tasuke", other than to say that every reference I have found and persons I have spoken to have pronounced it as "tasuke".

Ron Beaubien
23rd November 2003, 17:31
Difficulties with Japanese language terms seems to be one of the inherent problems of learning traditional Japanese arts outside of Japan when one's teacher is not a native Japanese speaker or hasn't been a long term resident of Japan. When I practiced karate in the US we had the same problem, despite still being an official branch school of a Japanese organization based in Tokyo and training with our Japanese teachers regularly.

Here are some commonly used English language and rather authoritative sources which render the word as "tasuki" (æF) below that may be of use to you:

Dalby, Liza. Kimono Fashioning Culture. London: Vintage 2001, 169.

Japan An Illustrated Encyclopedia. Tokyo: Kodansha, 1993, 1530.

Nelson, Andrew. The New Nelson Japanese-English Character Dictionary. Rutland: Tuttle 1997. Character # 5512.

Masuda, Koh. Ed. Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary. Fourth Edition. Tokyo: Kenkyusha 1974, 1747.

Less reliable, but online English language sources for Japanese words used in kimono and sumo that can be used for a quick check, also listed the cord for tying up the sleeves as "tasuki" as well:


http://www.hevanet.com/miyumi/clothing.htm

http://jeff.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/sumoterms


"Tasuke" (?•‚¯) is the shortened form of the verb "to help."

Best,

Ron Beaubien

Bugei-Ki
24th November 2003, 13:41
Apparently the Sageo in Enshin Ryu was removed before combat and held in the clothing and when the opponent was pinned to the floor was removed and used to provisionaly tie them up, i.e: arms,leg, head in such a manner that an attempt to move could result in extreme discomfort or even the prisoner choking to death. as soon as i have more information i will post it.










Adam Lindop

glad2bhere
24th November 2003, 14:01
I understand that the Metropolitan police still carry a cord rifted-up in their chest pocket and are trained in using it to restrain individuals. Does anyone have any information on this?

BTW: I am familar with the idea of swordsmen tying their sleeves back and wonder what proponents of spear and staff work did? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

monkeyboy_ssj
24th November 2003, 14:04
Do you mean the UK Met police? I don't think they do...they just usually let the thieves go and tell them to stop being so naughty.

Or spray you with pepper stray if you are being too quite and co-operating too well.

Cheers

glad2bhere
24th November 2003, 14:35
No, I meant the Tokyo Metropolitan Police.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

monkeyboy_ssj
24th November 2003, 14:38
Originally posted by glad2bhere
No, I meant the Tokyo Metropolitan Police.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I got ya, If the UK Met carried rope they only would end up tying their own arms together, Cheers

Richard Elias
24th November 2003, 16:20
Bruce,

Using a tasuki to tie back the sleeves was just the common way of tying back the sleeves... used by everyone. It wasn't used only by swordsman but by anyone wearing a kimono that needed the sleeves out of the way for whatever they were doing.

The hojo used by the Japan Met. Police is based on the technqiues of Ittatsu ryu from the Shindo Muso ryu curriculum. I believe they have 12 ties that were originally taught by Shimizu Takaji. Shimizu had also developed a jo curriculum(called "keijo")for them as well, which I think also included 12 basic technqiues.

If my notes are correct the 12 ties used by the Met. Police are;

5 Kihon techniques.
3 techniques of Tote Nawa (Hoshu Nawa) or tying to the front
4 Techniques of Inchi Nawa (Goso Nawa) or tying to the rear.

I had a list of the individual ties but I can't seem to find it.

glad2bhere
24th November 2003, 16:40
Thanks, Richard.

This may be a dumb question but do the police learn these techniques as part of a tradition or are they functional techniques meant for daily use? By this I mean do the police use these techniques rather than handcuffs or plastic ties, or is this simply a way of maintaining connections with traditions of the past?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Richard Elias
24th November 2003, 16:58
I believe they were added before handcuffs were introduced, as a method of restraint. I think they are continued to augment the use of cuffs and ties. A cord can also be used in cunjuntion with cuffs if the subject requires further restraint or to bind several together. It's my undrstanding that some officers even prefer to use a cord rather than cuffs.
Besides, rope are handy, you never know when you might need one.

glad2bhere
24th November 2003, 17:08
Thanks, Richard.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Tony Peters
3rd January 2004, 08:23
Originally posted by Richard Elias
I believe they were added before handcuffs were introduced, as a method of restraint. I think they are continued to augment the use of cuffs and ties. A cord can also be used in cunjuntion with cuffs if the subject requires further restraint or to bind several together. It's my undrstanding that some officers even prefer to use a cord rather than cuffs.
Besides, rope are handy, you never know when you might need one.

Ho ho ho no joke there...I had a drunk on the floor of my patrol office in hinge cuffs and leg irons, hogtied...unfortunatly he was also double jointed as such he was able to slide the cuffs from back to front twice standing up and actually attempting to assault the people watching him. We actually debated calling the Japanese nationals who work for the base police as they also know the Hojo Techniques and are allowed to use them (on sailors)...eventually we just had a guy sit on him for a few hours...boy was that an interesting use of force report

John Lindsey
5th January 2004, 23:46
Fujita Seiko once wrote a book on hojojutsu. Some of the techniques shown in his book are very similar to what is shown in Don Angier’s hojojutsu videos. Thus, I wonder if they indirectly studied the same system, through different teachers?

One other possibility is that hojojutsu, as a bugei art, is not a very diversified art, especially in regards to the fundamentals of handling the cord, knot tying, etc. Maybe the real diversification is in the tying patterns?

Is Fujita’s book ryuha specific or a collection of various hojojutsu techniques, similar to how his kyusho book covered numerous ryuha?

Ellis Amdur
6th January 2004, 00:23
John -

Fujita's book was a compendium of techniques he asserted were specific to certain ryu. (As there were regional differences/factions in a lot of those ryu, I wonder if some of the alleged ryu specifics were, in part, regional peculiarities. For example, the Araki-ryu methods are completely different from the Araki-ryu from the Ise-Zaki area.).

I think it probably is fair to say that the fundamentals are similar, across ryu - but they seem to have as many different methods as a decadent, sadistic mind with too much time and too many prisoners could come up with.

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

Mekugi
6th January 2004, 07:20
Originally posted by Daniel Lee
I look at the different systems as sharing a great amount of similarities, but as also possessing enough uniqueness to differentiate them all.

So is this like, the throwing of a baseball is ultimately controlled by natural physical properties; however each type of pitch method varies slightly enough to make a fast ball, curve ball, etc.?

Perhaps these are totally different ideas, but I personally don't know that much about hojojutsu (yet) and am trying to follow.

I find this stuff fascinating, then again I find marine knots fascinating and a never ending way to amuse myself.

BTW, whats the jaguchi like? A slipknot, a pre-tied knot or perhaps a woven loop?

O'Neill
10th January 2004, 04:57
Does anyone know the proper terms for the various sections of the rope and maybe even names of various knots?

O'Neill
22nd January 2004, 04:43
Can anyone help with terms? Thanks