Origins of *Okinawa* Karate

[Patrick McCarthy]

Hi folks,

Just wanted to offer some food for thought for those of you interested in the historical origins surrounding percussive impact, defensive application practices against the habitual acts of physical violence, clinching/grappling and the kata of karate-kenpo in Okinawa's old Ryukyu Kingdom.

Karate kata are an Okinawan representation of 19th century Fujian quanfa xing/hsing simplified during the turn of the century for the purpose of being used in the school system (See Itosu's 1908 10 items).

Even though Western-style pugilism was not publicly introduced in Japan until the 1921 Jack Dempsey vs George Carpentier bout in NYC (according to Sasaki Gogai's 1921 article...see Tanpenshu), I am pretty sure the Uchinanchu had already developed a taste for closed fist & foot percussive impact from their respect of SE Asian-style boxing (Burma/Siam/Sumatra, etc.) In a 1929 interview Kyan Chotoku told Mutsu Mizuho & Miki Nisaburo that Okinawan's favored using the close fist over the Chinese open hand preference (see Motobu Choki translation here http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/motobu_choki_book.htm, I know, a shameless plug:-).

Tegumi-style wrestling (largely ignored these days) once effectively dealt with grappling issues.

The so-called cavity seizing, pressure-point techniques and defensive application practices (highly desired by island law enforcement officials, criminal justice system, castle security, diplomatic body-guard service, and correctional officers)traces its original to qinna (seizing & controlling) techniques.

Enclosed is a rare photo from the 1893 publication entitled, "The Science of Boxing." Note the karate-like posture.

Have a good weekend everyone and hope to catch up with you Monday.

Patrick McCarthy

[Harry Cook]

Hello Pat, interesting boxing photo. There are photographs of French Boxing from 1905 which are almost identical to karate, and once I figure out how to add illustrations here I will reproduce them here. Also I was reading a history of the Free Jewish School in London in the nineteenth century which included an illustration of a PE class; if it wasn't impossible you would swear the boys were practicing the basic karate oi-zuki. I wrote to the author and asked him if he had any further information, but he didn't know what they were doing. A real puzzle.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[hector gomez]

Great Picture Patrick,the image shows a classic example of how fighting has evolved and improved.In Todays world of "Boxing" any one attempting to use a karate type high rising block with boxing gloves on is asking for severe punishment.


Thanks,Great picture.



Hector Gomez

[Patrick McCarthy]

Hi Hector

Boy, you can say that again.

Patrick


quote: In Todays world of "Boxing" any one attempting to use a karate type high rising block with boxing gloves on is asking for severe punishment.

[Harry Cook]

OK, I'll give it a go.http://FB2
Harry Cook

[Harry Cook]

Obviously I'm doing something wrong. What is an avatar and how do I get one?
Harry Cook

[bustr]

Patrick

I've been looking for a long time for evidence of side-thrust and roundhouse kick usage in Eastern martial arts prior to the mid 19th century. I now believe that these kicks were borrowed from savate and that the spinning kicks often associated with Eastern martial arts borrowed from the Angolan martial arts and that these two styles are indigenous to their respective homelands (France for Savate and Angola for Capoeira). I have seen no evidence that Capoeira or Savate came from the far East. This theory doesn't sit well with alot of Eastern martial artists (Westerners who study karate, kung fu etc.) Even some of the more respected writers cling to the Eastern origin dogma. If you have time I'd love to get your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks

Mike

[Patrick McCarthy]

Mike,

Judging by the 5000 year old Beni-Hassan wall carvings and early literary works such as Talhoffer's Flehtbuch 1443, Hans Wurm’s Ringbuch c. 1507, Vollstandiges Ring-Buch 1659, Clear Instructions to the Art of Wrestling by Nicolaes Petter 1674, and Edmund Price's The Science of Self Defence 1867, etc., I'd concur with your observation; that there are indigenous fighting traditions which have nothing to do with China/Japan. That some Western martial artists are incapable of seeing this is entirely their own shortcoming...not ours.

With no documented historical testimony describing where the side-thrust & roundhouse kicks come from in karate, I'd have to guess that they were also export products of SE Asia; probably old Saim where Thai boxing was enjoyed as a national passtime since the 17th century.

Patrick

PS Harry, look here http://www.google.com.au/search?q=avatar+icon&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&meta=

[Joseph Svinth]

Henri Plee was one of the major proponents of Indochinese influence on savate. This may simply have reflected the numbers of Indochinese who came to France following World War II. On the other hand, it is possible that the influence goes back further than that, as French musketeers were serving in the Thai royal court as early as the 17th century. Available English-language documentation on both Khmer boxing and savate is limited, and as a result, statements on causality are probably better viewed as stated on a more-probable-than-not basis than as statements of fact.

If there was African influence on the traditional Southeast Asian martial arts, it was probably via slavers operating out of Arabia, India, and Sri Lanka. If so, then you would be most likely to find African influence in Indonesia, the southern Philippines, and perhaps the Thai royal court. The games played, however, were probably East African rather than West or Central African. Therefore, you should probably look to Reunion, Madagascar, and the Comoros rather than Angola for roots.

Jujutsu (and more importantly, BJJ) *did* influence capoeira Regional. Look at the belts, the way classes are organized, etc. On the other hand, capoeira also influenced BJJ. IMO, the reason was Vale Tudo. Anybody who stands up against a good capoerista is going to get kicked. So, accept that as a given, and train for the ground instead.

[Harry Cook]

I would still look to China/SE Asia as the primary source for karate-like techniques. Wan Lai Sheng in his Wu Shu Hui Tsung demonstrates side and back kicks in the 1030s, and many Chinese systems use circular kicks. It only takes small hip adjustments to turn them into the modern form of the kicks used in karate.
Capoeira Angola tends to use less gymnastic type kicks than Regional, and Master Gato of Group Senzala told me that much of the more modern Regional was introduced/developed by Master Bimba in the 1930s, by which time these kicks were developing in Japanese karate (see photos etc of Yoshitaka Funakoshi).
Pat, I'm going to get one of my lads to sort out this posting pictures lark - he is a computer pro (Paul; you might remember him?).
All the best,
Harry

[Eric Ling]

Re: roundhouse kicks, am I correct in believing that there are no roundhouse kicks in traditional okinawan kata? Might they not be a modern addition to karate?

[Harry Cook]

There are circular kicks, ie crescent kicks in Okinawan kata, but no roundhouse kicks. Actually apart from Shotokan and systems influenced by Shotokan the mainstream Japanese styles such as Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu etc do not use roundhouse kicks in kata either. It seems reasonably certain that roundhouse kick came from Muay Thai, and that mawashigeri was being used in the mid 1930s. For details see my Shotokan Karate A Precise History pp114-115.
Yours,
Harry Cook

[Shikiyanaka]

I live near the Neandertal in Germany, were the Neandertaler comes from. If you go there, you will find a nice sculpture of such a guy beaering a long stick (in fact, a spear). If I look at a fighting system which survived in any part of the world I will find certain things always developed the same. If one studies fighting with bear hands for any reasons, than it is immanent that he is forced to deal with all know kinds of grappling, seizing, kicking, punching etc. If one studies studies fighting with a spear he has to deal with all aspects of that. If he has a spear he would also have to continue thinking about bare hand fighting, because he can’t be sure to have his spear at hand or to be able to use it in any situation. Thus, most fighting systems were composed of bear hand fighting including kicking/hitting/grappling stuff as well as weapons fighting. This is true for classical Bujutsu, for Alexander the Great’s armies, for the medieval German masters at arms, for Chinese martial artists and so on. This would be immanent as long as it is not explicitly „forbidden“ or banned out of this result of natural development.

Whereas in the quoted Nicolas Petters book the usage of kicks and blows was made very clear, in older books this is not seen very clear in the drawings. The Wallerstein Codex of the 15th century – which was taken as a model for Albrecht Dürer to draw his „Ring- und Fechtbuch“ – has all that stuff. But the pictures didn’t show it; only the text... and that is very old (called Mittel-Hoch-Deutsch). Of course, for training purposes wrestling must have been the first choice, but always and everywhere would have been easy to adjust to include hand and feet „for a little help“ or for more.

And if you like, please take a look at the rare and Talhoffers Fechtbuch. This is not the wide spread and well known one, but the so called „AMBRASER CODEX (http://www.quastl.de/Indexgerman/TalhoffersAmbraserCodex.htm)“ from 1459, republished by master at arms Gustav Hergsell in 1889. This is just one example for the fact that certain things are immanent to any system developed for the usage of offense and defense in encounters of fighting.

The modern olympic fencing was once an art comprising of all kinds of usual weapons - daggers, spears, long stiks, clubs etc. - and also included wrestling. The medieval German word "Fechten" meant this. This is comparable maybe to Bujutsu,; in this case Jûdô may be seen as the counterpart to fencing in the other example, but also Kendô.

This makes it a little bit hard for me to believe that only through a direct teaching or transmission a certain technique has been introduced into a certain style at a certain time. Simply training brought the experience and the real experiences were brought into training. This experience is and was relatively easy to adjust to „new“ things. Sometimes it maybe was simply: „You see it one time – you can do it.“ Maybe not very popular and maybe not true for more complex systems; but at least one thing to consider.

:)

[bustr]

I found these pics of early Muay Thai fighters. In the earliest manual they seem to be using forward kicks and some low judo style foot sweeps.

http://www.usmta.com/Old-Modern-Muay-Thai-Frame.htm

http://www.usmta.com/Chapasart-1.htm

I haven't found much on Khmer boxing. Is it the same thing as Bando?

[Hurricane Sokon]

I read an interview where one of Funakoshi's senior students claims to have made a pilgrimmage to China in the early 20th Century bringing back the reverse roundhouse kick from the techniques he gleaned while studying under a Northern Chuan Shu sifu there. Funakoshi then had him add it to the Shotokan curriculum.

I do know that the roundhouse is widely used in Filipino Kickboxing, Bando, Savate, Silat and Muay Thai (where it probably originated from). The roundhouse is also seen in certain Chinese styles. It seems natural to kick in this fashion. If you watch kids spar they will do this kick 90 % of the time. It's just eay to do. It's kind of like an "haymaker" kick. "Hooking" punches/strikes are the staple of the uninitiated. I guess it's just an easier and more natural way to do things.

Anyway, there is no mawashi geri in Okinawan karate. That doesn't mean you can't do them. Adapting is the key. Plus, there are very similar techniques that can supplant them.

[Shikiyanaka]

French Boxing picture from Collectors Item Catalogue; no year given. Has anyone an idea? maybe 1910-1935 or so?

http://www.quastl.de/FrenchBoxing.jpg

[Joseph Svinth]

Bando is recent, and essentially the creation of Dr. Gyi.

Khmer boxing is what the Cambodians and Laotians do. It's essentially Thai boxing. How much of it is stuff from the hills, and how much is stuff gotten from watching TV or the fights is of course a good question. (As is how much tradition survived Pol Pot.)

Anyway, there is nationalism involved in the name. The Cambodians, Laotians, and Vietnamese don't like their fighting art being called Thai, because they aren't Thai. Also, the Thais own all the associations.

So, what you'd be looking for is documentation of pre-1930s Thai-style boxing. It was practiced from Burma to the Golden Triangle to Vietnam, and of course runs into Chinese martial arts in the north, Indian martial arts in the west, and Islamic martial arts in the south. There are also tribal arts. Thus, enormous regional variation is likely, and I doubt there is much competent ethnographic material in English. (Vail's dissertation is probably the best available.)

[Shikiyanaka]

I think Japanese contact to Siam, Phillipines and other countries of S.E.A. was done via Okinawa... So, when the Mawashi geri should have come from there, why then it wasn't adapted by the Okinawans??? Maybe just because they are stubborn sometimes . :)

So, Mawashi-geri was not part of Okinawan kata, mmh. It came up sometimes in mainland Japan, maybe between 1920 -1940 or so. Some say it was Funkaoshi Gigo who introduced it together with Yoko-geri, mmhh. Or even that it was taken from Tae Kwon Do or its predecessors!?!

Let me be silly: Okinawans didn't use Mawashi-geri because their shoes didn't allow the turning on ball of the foot (aaarghl, that sounds so stupid). Or what about: While training in the sands at the beach, it was naturally not a good idea to turn the hip while the foot was fixed ankle-deep in the sand (oh my god, that's sounds even more stupid). Or: The clothes that the Pechin class did wear - this class developed Tôde, or not? - didn't even allow such a movement, even if they wanted to (brrrrr, not much better than the others).

As being silly gave no result, maybe this helps:

From beginning of Meiji Era, Japanese specialists were send out to the countries of the West; USA, France, England, Germany and so on, in order to learn and to adapt. Among them were specialist for callisthenics, sports, and martial arts. One of them was Jigoro Kano. But everytime a Japanese Jûjutsu or Jûdô expert came to the west, legend has it that they were teaching... only teaching. But I guess they were also researching.

So "the West" may need to be considered as a contributor to those developements in Meiji/Taisho/early Shôwa also!?!?

In Germany many people like the "Turnvater" Jahn started to revive callisthenices in early 19th century. They first looked at all that was before; the Greek, the Romans... and of course the German medieval times. Jahn already in 1815 or so had a booklist on wrestling and fencing in one of his publications, which even today could be used as contribution to some "Western Martials Art" webpages.

I guess in French, English and other countries writings it must have been quite the same.

However, also Funakoshi is said to have chosen his audience among "intellectual" people, I haven't heard of any Karate guy who had been in position to be sent to the West by or with help of the Japanese government at that time. And surely no Okinawan.

This also doesn't help...

:rolleyes:

May we agree upon Funakoshi Gigo???

[CEB]

Old US Goju-kai dojo story, oral tradition, whatever you want to call it.

The roundkick was introduced by Yamaguchi Gogen along with the practice of Jiyu Kumite. The roundhouse kick was reffered to as Yoko Geri because the target area is the side of the body.

[Shikiyanaka]

Does it mean 2nd part of 20.th century? Huuh, now I know were they got it from:

"Schaefer flankt nach innen - Kopfball - abgewehrt - aus dem Hintergrund mueßte Rahn schießen - Toooooor!!! Tooooor!! Toooor! Tor für Deutschland... - Deutschland ist Weltmeister!!!..."

I'am afraid this is not the common expert opinion. :cool:

Alright... I just always thought they did it all quite the same, at all times, everybody, everywhere. There are so many evidences, like the quoted Beni Hasan or the Egypt stick fighting. How can one formulate that matter clearly... (and why does "Mawashi geri" appeared so late???)

Albrecht Duerer, 1512:

http://www.quastl.de/49.jpg

The text for the picture at the bottom reads:

"Here one further piece. If you want to fight with one 'in-the-rush', who is very strong, then courageously attack him, as if you want to fight through to him with great strength, and as soon as he pushes you back with power, place one foot on his abdomen and quickly drop on your !!! and hold your knees together and throw him away over you, and hold him firmly at his arms, then he must fall on the face. You can do that with both feet and be quick with it."

Techniques and aim have been quite similar all over the world. The only difference seems if and how long such a "system" survived and developed. It seems to be more an anthropological question than one of culture or geographical location. Chinese and Okinawans used one-person-kata-drill (among others, of course), again showing the connection between them. And that was a very good idea.

If one would be able to put down the countless connections and influences between martial arts of the world over the times and places into a single short formula - just like Einstein put down his complex energy formula to e=mc2 - I would suggest that person for nobel price :)

[Joseph Svinth]

Japan's third Olympic medal came in freestyle wrestling. Its winner wrestled for Penn State, and later became a pioneer of judo in Brazil. A few years later, Kotani wrestled freestyle in the Los Angeles Olympics. If I remember correctly, he came in fifth, in a field of 8. Ichiro Hatta took up the challenge next, and there was considerable back'n'forth between Japan and Germany in freestyle wrestling before WWII. A German named Lehmann got his 4-dan in judo; he was a Berlin policeman, and also a wrestling champion. (He beat the fellow who beat Mel Bruno, if that means anything.)

There was also interest in boxing vs. judo throughout the Pacific Rim, and there were Japanese boxers and professional wrestlers in the USA as early as the 1880s.

Fifty years on, the influence of Jack Dempsey's movies shouldn't be underestimated, either -- those flicks, with plots not quite as intense as "Rocky" or "The Karate Kid," played in Tokyo for years during the 1920s. Thus, boxing became an official activity of the Toyama Military Academy before swordsmanship did.

***

IMO:

The Okinawans probably used straight front kicks because those are the least easily caught and then used to run the kicker about the dojo like a wheelbarrow. On the other hand, the collegiate karate of the 1930s specifically excluded judo-style sweeps and boxing-style punches to the head, and as a result, new methods developed.

For an analog, look at boxing. Without gloves, you don't hook to the head, as the practice leads to broken metatarsals. However, with gloves, hooks to the head become very useful techniques. Hence, the changes one sees in professional boxing during the 1910s, especially in Australia and the USA.

Roundkicks also suggest people who aren't well trained in using the elbows to block. Use elbows offensively, and people stop roundkicking in a hurry. Don't, and then they sneak right in. Elbow blocks only became common in US professional boxing in the 1930s, so probably the idea never really occurred to the Japanese collegiate karateka of the 1930s and 1940s who subsequently became the pioneers of postwar taekwondo and Shotokan. By the late 1950s, things were codifying, and by the 1960s, it was already becoming monkey see, monkey do in the burgeoning associations.

[Nyuck3X]

From beginning of Meiji Era, Japanese specialists were send out to the countries of the West; USA, France, England, Germany and so on, in order to learn and to adapt. Among them were specialist for callisthenics, sports, and martial arts. One of them was Jigoro Kano. But everytime a Japanese Jûjutsu or Jûdô expert came to the west, legend has it that they were teaching... only teaching. But I guess they were also researching.
So "the West" may need to be considered as a contributor to those developements in Meiji/Taisho/early Shôwa also!?!?

I remember watching a profile on Austrian Ranggeln.
Here's a web site describing it. In it, the author
describes the adoption of Asian type clothing,
(the dogi) instead of lederhosen.

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_baxter_0102.htm

If what Shikiyanaka says is correct, this page supports
the idea that the two cultures exchanged ideas much
earlier than previously thought.

Good discussion guys.

Peace

[Shikiyanaka]

...the author describes the adoption of Asian type clothing, (the dogi) instead of lederhosen.

Well, quite the same happened to me.
http://www.quastl.de/Lederhose.jpg
:p