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shotofan
6th November 2003, 22:54
I don't know if this is the right place to post this?

Do you think weapons trainning in todays age practial?. My sensei teaches the sais, bo and chucks. The cucks are not legal in my state, so I don't see the point. The sais and bo are legal. So if I used them to defend myself from a attacker I wouldn't be breaking any laws. But honestly would you carry those weapons if you could? If not, why train in them?

Just a thought.

p.s I think the sais would be the best choice if I carried a weapon. There could to defend agaisnt a knife. And you can concle them easliy.

Mekugi
6th November 2003, 23:34
One person, any weapon.


-Russ

Gene Williams
6th November 2003, 23:41
They aren't "chucks", they are nunchaku. They aren't "sais", they are sai...no plurals in Japanese. What do you mean by practical? I find the bo to be very practical because you can find a stick almost anywhere. The rest are practical if you happen to have them,but mostly you wouldn't. I think anything that teaches you hand eye coordination, body movement, and combat strategy is practical.

Jock Armstrong
7th November 2003, 00:08
Find a stick anywhere?? Try it on a nightclub dance floor or a dark alley. Don't get me wrong, I love training in old weaponry [Japanese and Filipino] and completely agree about the benefits you mentioned but I've heard the "can find anywhere" thing before and its just not true. Your karate will be of more use to you. I've been in the poo neck deep and there wasn't a stick to be found for love nor money.

shotofan
7th November 2003, 00:15
I know they are called nunchaku, but some people call them chucks. I didn't know that their are no plurals. I know that the bo is practial for the reason you stated.. But honestly what are the chances of you finding a stick if you get into a fight? Unless you are in a bar. Then you would have acess to a pool stick.

But the sai is slim. I have a pair but I never think about bringing with me when me and my buddies go out. Even though when we go to the bar on monday nite football. The sai would be more practial in a bar fight than a bo, because of the small space in a bar...

Gene Williams
7th November 2003, 01:08
Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Find a stick anywhere?? Try it on a nightclub dance floor or a dark alley. Don't get me wrong, I love training in old weaponry [Japanese and Filipino] and completely agree about the benefits you mentioned but I've heard the "can find anywhere" thing before and its just not true. Your karate will be of more use to you. I've been in the poo neck deep and there wasn't a stick to be found for love nor money.

I said "almost" anywhere:p

Ron Rompen
7th November 2003, 02:18
Two things to consider here:

1) Carrying sai (or nunchuka, or similar weapons) around with you. If you are so unwise as to do this, expect to be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. If you USE your weapon, expect to be charged with ADW (assault with a deadly weapon). Even if you are in the right, you will have to prove it.


2) Weapons are all over the place. All you have to do is learn to look for them. My first sensei was a firm believer in improvised weapons...we trained with the traditional weapons, but were expected to be able to improvise something at ANY given moment.

Examples: Tightly rolled newspaper will make an excellent escrima stick, club, or blunt spear. Cocktail swizzle stick works as a dagger (to soft tissue areas). Pool ball rolled in a towel (a la Steven Seagal) does work as a morning star (but be VERY careful), etc etc etc.

Training with traditional weapons teaches you the concepts and processes of using a weapon. Thats all it does...the rest is up to you.

Iron Chef
7th November 2003, 03:23
Originally posted by shotofan
I know they are called nunchaku, but some people call them chucks. I didn't know that their are no plurals.....

I don't know maybe there are plural sounds. All I know comes from listening to my teachers speak. When sensei talks about a single sai he says sai. When talking about more than one he would say what sounds like Zai. 2 sai sounds like Ni Cho Zai 3 sai sounds like San Cho Zai. A single kama is kama but when used as plural it sounds like gama. 2 kama sounds like Ni Cho Gama. Again this is from conversation I don't really understand the technical aspects of the language ( same or different kanji, dialectic considerations....) I just know what I think I hear.



Originally posted by shotofan
But the sai is slim. I have a pair but I never think about bringing with me when me and my buddies go out. Even though when we go to the bar on monday nite football. The sai would be more practial in a bar fight than a bo, because of the small space in a bar...

I don't advocate carrying concealed weapons on your person and you shouldn't do it. Hypothetically let's say you are a musician and you play in some rough honky tonks and you were to consider carrying something on you for weird reason. The weapons that come to mind for me are Chizikunbo and Bali Song knife. The knife could be very useful. You could partically repair any thing in a band with duct tape and a knife.

gmanry
7th November 2003, 03:52
In TKD I was shown the use of a knife, it was a formal kata that used rolling and checking actions (useful) with some kicking (not so useful). A friend who was in Ishin Ryu also taught me what he knew of proper use of nunchaku.

In karate I was shown the use of the Bo (two kata) and one kata for Sai. I never took Sai seriously. Bo was more useful.

The use of weapons only strengthens your karate, the use of proper stance and footwork is accelerated in weapons work. Weapons can kill you much more easily than empty handed work (wood and metal are always harder than bone and skin), so you learn to move more smoothly and nimbly as a result. If you have been shown proper dynamics, the transition between empty hand and weapons is fairly easy. If your stuff is too square and stiff, then the use of weapons will be foreign and will conflict with your karate.

As for weapons on your person, I think that one should try to always have a good ball point pen, a pocket full of change, and/or a small legally sized folding blade. These three items are great to have in a variety of situations that range into the upsetting and nasty variety. Some friends of mine also fancy the Surefire tactical flashlights.

n2shotokai
7th November 2003, 06:39
What do you mean by practical? IMO a bo or jo is very practical (broom stick). Sai, nunchaku, tonfa, kama are effective but for obvious reasons not practical for out on the street defense.

I find a katana to be very effective and practical. A few months ago a guy came in the dojo with his live katana and gave it to me to check out. I commented how nice it was etc. and handed it back. He insisted I try it out. I did my best Miyamoto Musashi imitation and it cleared out that whole end of the dojo. It was very effective and practical for clearing a space for me to work out that night.

I study kobudo because I enjoy it. The only weapons I seriously consider for practical reasons are bo and jo.

shotofan
7th November 2003, 17:06
I understand that if I carried a weapon like the sai and so forth, I would probbly be looked at as a crimal. Even if I used it for self defense. I under stand the use as a tool to improve your karate. But my sensei teaches us like we would use them in a fight.
What sucks is that I love the sai. I think (for me any way) is a very practal weapon to have with you. Easy to carry. Not conceled, but as self defense weapon. But socity would find falut with it.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing agasnt carring a gun (with a licnce) , but it is legal but if I carried a weapon like a sai most people would take a double take. Having the sai people would think I was looking for a fight. But the gun as self defense.
Does that make sense?

Sorry about the bad spelling..:)

gmanry
7th November 2003, 17:31
Aaron,

Not fully understanding what you mean when you talk about your teacher showing sai as if you were in a fight, I would have to say that a good kobudo teacher should teach exactly this way. Weapons mean life or death. If you don't show this in your teaching (the seriousness of it), then you are only teaching form and dance. This is the problem with most martial arts these days, at least in America. At some level instructors are not instilling the deadly seriousness of martial arts practice into their students.

What this does not mean is talking about the "bad guys" being out to get you in every shadow and perpetuating the ridiculous fear of violent crime that most Americans have (an unfounded fear). What it does mean is that martial arts is about harming and killing if the techniques are taking to their logical extensions. So, practicing martial arts is like handling a loaded gun, and there better be a recognition of this by the instructor and the students.

Having said this, it is not necessary to be somber all the time. However, a sai is a metal pointy thing that can easily maim or kill. It was designed to kill, practice with it as if you are killing or maiming. That way, you understand the seriousness of what you do.

shotofan
7th November 2003, 22:24
What I meant was that if I really cant use them on the street, why pratice like I do use them on the street? Like I said before, if I did use them people would think I planed on getting in to a fight because I had them on me.

Prince Loeffler
7th November 2003, 22:32
Originally posted by shotofan
I don't know if this is the right place to post this?

The cucks are not legal in my state, so I don't see the point.
Just a thought.


Depends, what is exactly is a cucks ?:)

shotofan
7th November 2003, 22:43
nunchuka

gmanry
8th November 2003, 05:17
What I meant was that if I really cant use them on the street, why pratice like I do use them on the street? Like I said before, if I did use them people would think I planed on getting in to a fight because I had them on me.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "on the street." I agree that if your instructor is verbally telling you that this is how you carry them when you got your baggies on, then, yes, that is strange, and perhaps you should look into a new instructor. If you are having questions about all this, then maybe that is your answer. I don't think any of us are going to be able to tell you more than you know about the situation that you are personally in at the moment.

If however, your instructor is just delving into the possible theoretical uses of the sai based on its design and composition, well then that is what a kobudo instructor should be doing. Examination of esoteric weapons in modern times is ok and can make things interesting, but there are caveats and limitations.

For real self-defense there are better choices than a sai. Mr. Truscott, our moderator, is an advocate on canes. I know someone in my current organization of choice who also is a large proponent of canes, and I am still trying to figure out if he actually has a limp or if he is one hell of an actor. ;)

I have given my choices for being prepared for unpleasant situations. There are many others.

I have learned about some very impractical weapons in my martial arts training of late. However, there things that I can take from those weapons and use in a real (although unlikely) situation. I have seen someone get completely demolished in a very unexpected demonstration with a tea cup. The dental work would have been astronomical had it been taken to its logical conclusion, and very nearly was. I don't really need to practice in the dojo for hours on end to get it, but I did play with some tea cups at home, just handling them to sink the idea in.

However, any weapons instruction, even impractical esoteric ones need to be conducted with the idea of life and death. Even in practice people have been killed and maimed during weapons work. To teach any less, which is often the case, is a dangerous and negligent act.

Jay Vail
8th November 2003, 14:00
Training in the use of any length of stick has modern self defense value. Sticks -- or their variations -- are everywhere. Once on a work crew, a guy lost his temper with me and tried to brain me with his shovel. I was similarly armed and addressed him with a technique from bo.

Another time, long long ago when I carried nunchaku in the car, a fellow took offense at my driving. He accused me of cutting him off. I swear, he wasn’t there when I pulled out. He just popped out of the ground. He followed me home and vented in my face in my driveway -- road rage before the term was invented. I had my chucks in my back pocket by that time, and was ready to brain him if he reached for his pockets. He cooled off and went home after I profusely apologized for my stupidity. (verbal judo!)

On that TKD “knife kata,” the guy who invented that obviously was a fool who knew nothing about short sharp things. Kill or Be Killed, Cold Steel, the Flos Duellotorum, and Talhoffer have all you need to know about the knife. It’s a simple, nasty, no frills instrument.

Iron Chef
8th November 2003, 14:08
Numchuks

Snowtiger
8th November 2003, 15:01
Jo is pretty much the length of any broomstick. Eskrima stick is about the size of the baton of a police officer, or security guard.

Weapons also teach you distancing and angling, even if you aren't going to fight with a sai or katana in real life. Self defence situations often happen in other places but pubs/bars or on the streets. A common place for self defence situations are homes. You can have anything you want in your home. Some people sleep with a gun under their pillow, others sleep with a katana up on the wall, a jo under the bed and some "chucks" in the fridge *just in case* LOL! :D

n2shotokai
8th November 2003, 15:09
Here in California, when the Bruce Lee flicks came out, everyone was running around with "chucks". The gang bangers started bringing them to knife fights and your average Joe was knocking himself silly in his front yard trying to figure out on his own how to use them. To this day, most people here call them "chucks", much to the chagrin of the legitimate instructors.

Iron Chef
8th November 2003, 15:31
Originally posted by n2shotokai
Here in California, when the Bruce Lee flicks came out, everyone was running around with "chucks". The gang bangers started bringing them to knife fights and your average Joe was knocking himself silly in his front yard trying to figure out on his own how to use them. To this day, most people here call them "chucks", much to the chagrin of the legitimate instructors.

I think Bruce could have used a legitimate instructor. Maybe he would have at least gripped a Nunchakun properly in one of his movies. :)

n2shotokai
8th November 2003, 16:01
Originally posted by Iron Chef
I think Bruce could have used a legitimate instructor. Maybe he would have at least gripped a Nunchakun properly in one of his movies. :)

Why do you say that? My first instructor was Japanese. The way he taught me is very different from the Okinawan kobudo I am now involved in.

Iron Chef
8th November 2003, 16:17
Originally posted by n2shotokai
...My first instructor was Japanese. The way he taught me is very different from the Okinawan kobudo I am now involved in.

Then it probably wasn't correct. Gripping the kun close to the himo is cute. Its fun and you can twirl the thing real fancy like but it isn't .... Well its pretty. A lot of karate people not trained in ryukyu kobudo will do that. I happy to hear you now have a Ryukyu Kobudo teacher.

Snowtiger
8th November 2003, 16:26
There are lots of styles and ways. It is always funny when someone says "that is fake because his grip is not like in our style". I've seen and read about enough different (authentic) styles to let such things aside. :o

PS. Also remember, that Lee differentiated between Real Fighting, and Reel Fighting. And that he did not study Okinawan kobudo. He has been quoted saying that Nunchaku twirling is only good for movies... ;)

Iron Chef
8th November 2003, 16:53
Basic assumption in Kobudo is that you are fighting weapon against weapon and there are correct methods and incorect methods. I've seen very good Kyokushin kai guys do Nunchakun techniques. They were good karate guys but didn't know what the hell they were doing with nunchakun. Strikes must be extended and returned with a cutting action or the kun bounces back at you. You must also hold the thing toward the kontei to do this. By gripping it here you also increase your distance which is good because most bunkai is taught against Bo. Also when holding the thing close to the himo you can't properly do the squeezing and trapping techniques or the weapon which are very important in its study. Blunt force trauma is a pretty simply concept. Just because someone is as karate sensei doesn't mean he knows how to properly use a flail weapon. A lot of bad Neo-Kobudo has been proliferated by some very good karate guys.

shotofan
8th November 2003, 18:20
My sensei never shows us how to wear them on the street. He even says if we ever get in to a fight, chances are we won't have a weapon on us. Unless we carry a knife some thing like that.

I can see the use at home. But if someone broke in they would have to deal with twq German shepards. One sleeps with one of my baby girl the other one sleeps with my other two girls. So the chances of someone getting are slim. My dogs never leave my girls alone at night so I feel pretty safe for my kids. I know there are chances but I try to look on the good side.:D

BULLDOG
8th November 2003, 20:14
Hello,

Weapons’ training has three functions at our dojo.

[1] To enhance basic skills that transfers to empty hand skills, an example would be utilizing full hip rotation and improving hand and eye coordination.
[2] For practical self-defense, depending on the weapon, we teach the traditional weapons with equal importance as we do cane, knife, jo and baton.
[3] To, just have fun!

We also focus on the concept that weapons are tools –and- tools are weapons. Many times I will not utilize the word weapons but substitute it for tools. The concept of tools opens up a multitude of self-defense options in an every day existence.

Yes we do teach weapons – mainly because it’s fun.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

shotofan
8th November 2003, 20:23
I see your guys points. I agree weapon trainning in the dojo helps improve your basic skills. And yes stick trainning helps, for if you find one on the street you have advantge or at least even the odds a little.

Matt Wolfson
10th November 2003, 16:05
I agree with the person preceeding me when he mentioned weapons being tools. It is not in the same sense of the word though. to develope the life and death seriousiness and ablitity to deal with that kind of commitement from others it was necessary to focus on one aspect of the martial arts to the exclusion of others. When ones life was at stake medicority was not acceptable. So one focused on one aspect. weapons where one system and usually comprised only one weapon (bo or sai or...) no "and" involved. Each weapon was considered its own system. striking arts where another grappling still another etc etc. So to develope realistic and practical skills one focused on one aspect and worked it like mad. " I do not fear the man who knows ten thousand kicks. I fear the man who does one kick ten thousand times." sums up the idea. However we live in a differnt time and place and our lives are dependant more on our paperhuffling ability and not on reverse punch. So for the most part we are afforded a more leasurely study of differnt arts that comprise martial arts. At our school we view weapons as "Hojo Undo" or supplimental exercises. In that we focus on empty hand karate. Instead of lifting weights we do a much more sport spacific exercise. namely use the bo to do drills and kata. It uses the same stances/footwork as open hand but gives you the weight of the bo and the practice of hand dexterity.
-Littlepond Wolfson

Charles E Davis
24th May 2008, 15:17
Greetings all
My opinion is that any martial training offers benefits in Mind over body, discipline, spirit etc. Traditional weapons training gives you skills that you can apply to improvised defensive tools that you have all around you. While most traditional martial arts weapons are illegal on the street, you ussually have some legal items that you can use as defensive tools. Flashlights (large or small), Umbrella's, long Ice scrappers, Tire irons, Kubaton type key chains, jogging sticks and my personal favorite, a sturdy Hapkido style cane, legal everywhere and an awesome self defense tool. Try doing your favorite weapons kata with an Hapkido cane. You wil be amazed at how you can improvise and modify the moves to fit the tool.
Keep Training:)
http://www.cdavisgroup.com
Charles E Davis

Charles E Davis
29th May 2008, 23:07
Hi Guys
As many of you pointed out, traditional weapons training gives you martial skills that you can apply to legal tools and use them as improvised weapons. This includes Canes, well constructed umbrella's, Maglite style flashlights, Ice scrappers, jogging sticks etc.
A great martial weapon to train with is Escrima sticks. Interestingly, in the Phillipines, weapons training is the first thing you generally learn. Empty hand movements follow. If you practice those weaving Siniwali moves with Rattan escrima sticks, you will soon see an improvement with your empty hands movements. My favorite legal defensive tool is a sturdy Hapkido style Cane. Please do not call it your Combat Cane, Fighting stick or anything other then a Cane that will potentially cause legal problems by a slick Lawyer. Keep training
Charles E Davis
http://cdavisgroup.com