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Arashi
5th October 2000, 23:58
Hello.

I am new here and i believe it will be polite to introduce myself first, so here it goes:
My name is Toni Rodrigues, i live in Brazil and i am a former judoka. I took Judo when i was a teenager for a long time and i made it to 2nd kyu. For a lot of reasons, none of them having to do with my love for the art, i had to quit and i never returned to it. I took Capoeira for some time, then Shotokan Karate for five years and Aikido for the last 12 years. I am nowadays an Aikido instructor, but i love Judo. So much that my kids and my wife train Judo (along with Aikido) and the only reason i do not is the lack of time. I also have a hobby of collecting Old Martial Arts Books and since Judo was the first one to really have an amount of books written about it i have a lot of them, so as you can see, i am an Aikidoka but Judo is in my heart.
That said, i would like to know the opinion of the members of this forum about a fact i saw during the Judo competition on the Sydney Olimpic Games.
On the middle weight (if my memory serves me) division a brazilian Judoka named Carlos Honorato, who later won the Silver Medal, fought a japanese Judoka whose name i don't remember right now. Close to the end of the bout and wining by a wasari (if my memory serves me again) he entered successfuly with a very strong leg technique, uchimata or harai goshi, i really do not remember. But what i want to discuss is what happened with the japanese Judoka. Insteadt of performing ukemi, he tried to stop the fall with his arms fully extended and the result was a broken arm. Of course, this guy knew very well how to do ukemi, in fact i heard he was gold medalist in Atlanta, so his abillity in Judo is not an issue here, and i know the kind of pressure an Olimpic Champion faces in a situation like that, but, dont't you think this is going too far? I mean, isn't the competitive side of Judo becaming more important than it should? What happens with "Jita Kyoei" and "Seryoko Zenyo" in a situation like this? I would like to hear from you. One more thing, please forgive me for my english, it is NOT my native language. Ganbatte kudasai.

Toni Rodrigues

Ben_Holmes
6th October 2000, 04:33
Ahh... but the Japanese Judoka (I don't recall the name) DID do ukemi... he just did it poorly! He was not just trying to stop the fall, he was doing a "one-arm turnout". Ukemi does NOT mean to meekly land on your back and slap loudly as you kiai... Ukemi means to land safely. There have been in Judo's past, Judoka famous not for their throwing techniques, but for their ability to land on their FEET, or in any equally non-scoring positions.

I'm at a loss to understand why this would be a violation of Seiryoku Zenyo - as this refers to the "Best use of energy" (Or more commonly translated as "Maximum efficiency with Minimum effort"). Unless you wish to argue that Seiryoku Zenyo also applies to ukemi? The best use of energy in THIS respect is that use which leads to NO SCORE, not necessarily 'easiest landing'.

And Jita Kyoei? Commonly translated as "Mutual Benefit & Welfare"... but I always liked Phil Porters translation, "You, Me, Shining Together". Now, you might argue that by performing poor ukemi, you would upset your tori who is now thinking about your injury... and his responsibility for your injury... and that is certainly a valid thought. But this is a competition, and you have to balance the effort to score, and not be scored on, with the more common principles of Judo. I would certainly be upset if this form of ukemi (a one-arm turnout) were being routinely employed in just normal randori. But in practice leading to competition, and IN competition?? It's merely one more tool in the toolbox for the competitor.

And Toni, your English FAR surpasses my Brazilian... (English is my sole language.) I'm always impressed with multilingual people. From reading what you wrote, you have nothing to apologize for!!

MarkF
6th October 2000, 08:13
Ah, I think Toni's native language is Portuguese, not "Brazilian," but who's counting? Some speak Spanish, but again, not the native language.

BTW: Toni, Welcome to E-budo! This is a good question and one which needs to be answered.:wave:

Ben's description overall is correct, as I have taken a couple to the head for fear of losing (I lost anyway). I will disagree that "minimum effort and maximum efficency" is to be found in the Olympics. Certainly, though, the IJF/IOC has made it easier to score, but as to what, sometimes I don't know. A match which is undecided with one koka to one koka and left to judges, especially when awarded on passivity pernalties to each player, is not exactly what I had in mind. Mutual welfare, though, I think is built in to judo, but some really push the envelope, don't they?

Porter's comments aside (he has some problems), I like the original description and translation just fine.

But I also believe international judo needs a tune up (again), but this time they should go with the economy features as they seemed fine before. The blue judogi has lowered official error by quite a bit so that should probably stay.

BTW: I agree with Ben; your English is just fine, so no apologies or warnings needed here.

Sincerely,

Mark

PS: I used to know an absolutely great Brazilian judoka who trained at my former dojo in California, and he was just as Ben described. I don't think I ever threw him on his back, as he seemed to always end up on his feet. He was about five feet tall (I towered over him at five feet, three inches) and could twist and turn his way out of almost everything I threw at him. His answer to the question virtually everyone had after working with him, "How did you DO that?" was an ear to ear smile. At least, he never told me.

Arashi
6th October 2000, 14:30
Hi Mark and Ben.

It is a pleasure to be here, i want you to know that.
Now, Ben, i am sure (i have read many of your posts in the past) that you know a lot more Judo than i do, but yes, i do think "best use of energy" also applies to ukemi. Judo is not something that the tori do alone, it is not a big ragdoll he is puting on his back and throwing, but a person. The same applies to the Uke, of course he is expected to land saffely, not necessarily on his back, as you pointed, but he must be concerned about the best use of energy either, even to stop a fall or decide to go with it. If we forget for a moment the sportive side, Judo is a Budo that is perfomed 50% by Tori and 50% by Uke, if just one of them is doind their part, what we have is half-Judo. And about the "mutual benefit" or even "shining TOGHETER" i believe i saw only half Judo on that bout. Let me hear from you. Regards.

Toni

RDeppe
6th October 2000, 19:12
Hi-- first off I'm not a judoka, but have done some Tomiki Aikido Knife shia's in the past which is sort of similar. With the Tomiki stuff I've seen personally a few & read of lots of serious injuries that are more or less caused because the person thrown and injured refuses to take ukemi. I would definitely agree that this is just stupid (I think that's what you're getting at). At some point you need to concede defeat which I think helps keep things a martial art and not a NHB event.

That said, if you can reverse in the air-- go for it!

Thanks.

Ben_Holmes
7th October 2000, 02:18
Arashi: "And about the "mutual benefit" or even "shining TOGHETER" i believe i saw only half Judo on that bout."

In my humble opinion (That's a phrase us opinionated old cusses use just before we're about to stir everything up...) you should consider what the GOAL is at any particular moment. *MOST* of the time, you are attempting to improve your Judo, and help your uke improve his/her Judo. And "Mutual Benefit & Welfare" comes into play 100% here. But in competition, may I suggest the thought that the goal might have changed somewhat? Aren't you *testing* your ability? And the "Best use of energy" at the point of ukemi might very well be using EXCESSIVE amounts of energy to nullify a score, and continue the match? And is "Mutual Benefit & Welfare" helped by "conceding defeat"?

I think a win is all the more sweet when I know that my opponent has done EVERYTHING he can do to stop me. And by the same token, I want him to know that if he defeats me, he's EARNED it.

But that's just 2 cents worth... I competed for many years, and was never afraid to use turnouts, roundoffs, and any other 'trick' to deny a score. I was never injured thereby, but I was *willing* to take that chance.

However, as I already pointed out, these more dangerous (in some cases, not all) forms of ukemi SHOULD NOT be normal in randori... and I would discourage it in normal practice.

And I *should* have remembered that it was Portuguese, since I have an Uncle who speaks it. Sorry!!

MarkF
7th October 2000, 07:19
Toni,
You may all ready have seen these, but there are a few MPEGs of Koga, one of the best finishers I have ever seen, modern or not. Try http://judoinfo.com/video.htm . Download those of Koga (there is a couple of Prof. Kano, as well), and watch the looks on the faces of those he defeats. Obviously they all don't turn out this way, but concerning confused, and uke "rolling out" of a nage, is something rarely seen with Koga. His "center" just jumps out at you even when viewing on a small screen.

Just something I was thinking of which you may like.

I'm sure Ben would recommend them, as well.:D

Mark