PDA

View Full Version : Fusen ryu jujutsu



Jeffery Brian Hodges
6th October 2000, 00:14
Dear Forum,
I was interested in any information pertaining to Fusen ryu. I am interested in all areas of the ryu, especially the newaza aspect. Recently I have heard that much of the newaza in the Kodokan derived from Fusen ryu any elaboration on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou

sincerely,

Joseph Svinth
6th October 2000, 08:58
Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake both trained in Fusen Ryu during the 1890s; Tani went on to become a leader of the London Budokwai ( http://budokwai.org ) and both Tani and Miyake were well-known professional wrestlers (Tani in Britain and Miyake in Britain and the US).

In a couple days an article about Tani by Graham Noble will appear in Journal of Combative Sports ( http://ejmas.com ) and this contains just about everything I've ever seen regarding the Fusen Ryu. (Okay, it's only a couple paragraphs, but that's still everything I've ever seen.)

Meanwhile, if you have access to Japanese-language sources, names to look for include Torajiro Tanabe and Matauemon Tanabe; they were brothers, and the latter was headmaster of the system in the 1880s and by all accounts a superior ground man. Indeed, his victories are what convinced Kano to incorporate more groundwork into Kodokan judo.

MarkF
6th October 2000, 10:22
Joe has the most complete and current info, but if you wish, try http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryEight.htm

http://www.judo1.net/ju01002.htm .

This is about all there is on the net. Most is copied or borrowed from this basic history, so for a lot more, try Joe's website concerning the Tani article when available. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Mark

BTW: If you do a web search, as I just did, the Tanabe brothers are mentioned, and there is information on German language sites, aside from the Japanese Language sources. The only school of Fusen ryu I have heard is in Germany, but it has been a while, and I do not have that name anymore.

Jeffery Brian Hodges
6th October 2000, 15:50
Thanks for your replies, I enjoyed the information.

sincerely,

Kit LeBlanc
8th October 2000, 05:35
Daniel Lee from Koryu Australia (the link is on the Koryu.com site) provided me with some info on Fusen ryu. They are still active.

The descriptions of the techniques did not sound like they are that heavy ne-waza, though I have heard much the same things regarding that portion of their curriculum (only from Cunningham's information, though). Can't wait for the EJMAS article!! I would love to explore the ryuha further if it has such an emphasis on ne-waza. Love that groundwork!

Kit LeBlanc

MarkF
8th October 2000, 17:46
Hi, Kit,
I think there should be some infor on fusen on furyu.com, as well. As for Cunningham's info, it usually seems "light" as mostly coming from other websites. He claims he got his judo history "kuden" at the Kodokan, and at the same time he claims Yanagi ryu background.

The only schools I could find which are strictly fusen ryu were in Germany, but there may be a lot more today as it is catching on again, mainly because fusen was the only school to "trash" Kano ryu Jiu-jitsu. It was supposedly the newaza which did them in, as the newaza from the kito school was difficult to learn, and mostly was avoided.

It does specialize in newaza far more than any other school, although the early newaza of judo was from the kito school, and later western wrestling. The shimmeisho of the gokyo no waza of judo are pretty much wrestling attacks, as single and double leg takedown make up a good portions of these new throws. Check out http://www.kodokan.org for more up to date and better waza than what is found in Kodokan Judo of the 1980's with the same nage. It may suprise you that a throw such as morote gari is more of a shoulder throw, but in fact in simply a double leg tackle, lift and using the right shoulder to complete the throw. Another would be kuchiki toashi, which is a single leg takedown with the palm of the hand creating and achieving kake (one-hand drop).

I have hear that Gene LeBell has a new book out which is loaded with stuff, in which he prefaces with "this is not legal in judo" and proceeds to show you every gatame there is which isn't "legal." Wink, wink, ;) ;) hraruumph, cough cough.:D

Mark

BTW: If you or someone you know speaks or reads German, there is a site in particular which seems to have more info then any other. My german is very weak as most comes by way of Yiddish.

George Kohler
8th October 2000, 18:22
Originally posted by MarkF
I think there should be some infor on fusen on furyu.com, as well. As for Cunningham's info, it usually seems "light" as mostly coming from other websites. He claims he got his judo history "kuden" at the Kodokan, and at the same time he claims Yanagi ryu background.


I don't think he claims Yanagi Ryu, but Takagi Ryu.

Joachim
8th October 2000, 21:43
Originally posted by MarkF

BTW: If you or someone you know speaks or reads German, there is a site in particular which seems to have more info then any other. My german is very weak as most comes by way of Yiddish.

I stumbled here by almost by accident, as I don't know anything about Judo (Took it as a kid, up to orange belt) and (frankly) am not too interested in it, but if you would give me the URL and info about what your looking for, I would be happy to help.

Kit LeBlanc
9th October 2000, 02:11
Mark F

Good to hear from you. I believe Daniel mentioned that Fusen-ryu has a section of taryu shiai waza, and that the system was more a self defense type method taught to commoners than a "battlefield" art, though the gokui contain information about other weapons, poisons, etc. Sounds like a fascinating school. I would love to see some of their old newaza stuff.

Tell me, what types of techniques are included in Kito-ryu newaza? I always thought Judo ne waza came from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, but have increasingly been hearing it was from Kito-ryu.

Kit

MarkF
9th October 2000, 12:01
Hi, Kit,
Nice to hear from you, too. This is getting mighty close to areas I am just not knowledgable enough to give precise techniques, but basically most original newaza did come from the kito school, I believe. The Ko shiki no kata shows a few of the takedowns which is done by a few kata specialists, and that I am not, but this is the essence of judo, omote and ura, equals kito ryu. Much of the ate and atemi no waza is from the tenjin shinyo school. It may be that tenjin shinyo added more technique than I realized so I certainly will not deny that.

I will get the german website which is fusen ryu, and yes, they do hold shiai, that much I understood. While fusen probably did encourage more groundwork, Western wrestling (free style) was also studied by Kano. I wish I could tell you more, but check out the Ko shiki no kata section of Kodokan Judo.

BTW: Yes, It was Takagi Ryu which Steve Cunningham is associated, but some question this part of his background. I apologize for the error. This isn't the first time I have said the wrong school of jujutsu.

Mark

MarkF
13th October 2000, 07:59
Kit,
According to someone who emailed me privately, it started from this:

If this Swedish site is correct,
http://www.troms-budo-krets.net/jujitsu.htm, Fusen Ryu is an offshoot of
Sosuishi Ryu. The latter dates to 1650. The supposition is reasonable, as
Tanabe was said to be the fourth headmaster, meaning that Fusen Ryu
probably wasn't much over a century old. Here is the Sosuishi Ryu site.
There were some serious changes ca. 1833. Speculation: possibly this is
where whoever named Fusen decided to split?

I don't want to name him, as Joe (whoops!), well you get the idea.:D

I think the misconception concerning fusen ryu is that they beat the Kodokan ryu jiu jitsu with their groundwork, a message taken seriously by Kano, then this means fusen is mostly groundwork. This, I think, is the mistake, and fusen did get that reputation.

Anyway, If the site is correct, and others say it split from takenouchi(SP), along with at least a dozen more.

Joachim, I could not, despite searching every conceivable site with this name, could not locate one specific to this in German. However, it may have been this site, and dismissed it because I thought it was German. Thank you for your offer of help.

Thanks to those who offered.

Mark

BTW: There was one which listed Fusen ryu as one of many from Takenouchi, probably the date mentioned by Joe. Other than that, I could not find one partial to fusen ryu, although last year there was one from a school in Germany, but was in English.

If anyone reads this who speaks or reads the language, anthing you may find on Fusen ryu would be a help. Thanks.






[Edited by MarkF on 10-13-2000 at 02:03 AM]

Anders Pettersson
14th October 2000, 08:23
Originally posted by MarkF
Kit,
According to someone who emailed me privately, it started from this:

[b]If this Swedish site is correct,
http://www.troms-budo-krets.net/jujitsu.htm, Fusen Ryu is an offshoot of
Sosuishi Ryu.
</B>
It is not Swedish, it is Norweigian. :D

But the languages are very similar.

/Anders

Ben Reinhardt
8th February 2001, 05:28
Is the Fusen Ryu still extant ? I am refering to the Fusen Ryu that defeated Kodokan Judo in a contest around 1900 ? I understand Fusen Ryu has as a root art Takenouchi Ryu. Is that true ?

Thanks,

Ben Reinhardt

Daniel Lee
9th April 2001, 03:04
Fusen-ryu images can be found at a Japanese website which features the 6th Kobudo Taikai (Osaka) with pictures of katori shinto-ryu, tennen rishin-ryu, enshin-ryu, owarikan-ryu, shibukawa-ryu, fusen-ryu, igaryuha shoshin-ryu, katayama houki-ryu & tenjin myoshin-ryu, araki-ryu, hontai yoshin-ryu, muhi muteki-ryu, chikubushima-ryu and nito shinkage-ryu at http://www.hoops.ne.jp/~mshirou/o.kobutaikai.html

the specific page address is:

http://www.hoops.ne.jp/~mshirou/husenn/husenn.html

Paul Steadman
19th April 2001, 01:15
Hi Daniel,

Great sites! Did you receive my recent reply e-mail? I've recently relocated within NSW and I've been off-line for nearly three months. I had about 400 e-mail waiting to download when I got back on-line. Sorry for the dealy in getting back to you.

All the best,

Paul Steadman

Neil Hawkins
19th April 2001, 14:02
Mark

There was a Fusen Ryu Club in Germany, but their web-site has been taken down. I had the URL until recently, but when I went through and checked my list, I found it was dead and I deleted it.

I've been racking my brain trying to remember where they were. The site was live a year or so ago and I did post the URL here, but I think that was pre-crash as I can't find it in a search.

If Robert Reinberger is around, he may know, or a question posted to his board (http://pub32.ezboard.com/bbudoforum) might bring some answers.

Regards

Neil

johan smits
19th April 2001, 20:43
If I am not mistaken the school was in Bremen. I have been trying to locate it but until now without succes.

Johan Smits

Robert Reinberger
15th May 2001, 23:06
Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
... If Robert Reinberger is around, he may know, or a question posted to his board (http://pub32.ezboard.com/bbudoforum) might bring some answers.

Regards

Neil Neil,

I've posted a question regarding Fusen Ryu and that site at Budoforum. Here is, what I was able to find out so far:

A Mr. Henry Schubert has trained Fusen Ryu Jujutsu (and some Iaijutsu and Tessenjutsu) for some time under Inoue Sensei. At present, Mr. Schubert doesn't teach Fusen Ryu regulary, but if the opportunity arises, he includes some of the Fusen Ryu Waza he has learnt, especially if he considers it to be a good countermove to a Daito Ryu technique. Fusen Ryu's "Sorihashi" against Daito Ryu's "Obiotoshi" was mentioned.

The site in question was not known by Mr. Schubert, but seems to have been the site of Mr. Ralf Kollmann (this information was provided in German language at my forum by Johan Smits, thank you Johan!). However, as Bremen - where Mr. Schubert has studied - was mentioned, he immediately betted on Mr. Kollman, who is one of his former students.

Well, that's all I could find out.

Regards,
Robert

MarkF
16th May 2001, 08:41
Thank you, Robert, for the information. I know I saw the website, too, but it has been a while.

At least I know I'm not losing it completely. Thanks for the backup.:)

Mark

Neil Hawkins
17th May 2001, 04:20
Yeah, thanks Robert.

Regards

Neil

Matthew Banks
3rd August 2001, 14:56
Dear Sir/Madame,

For many years I have been interested in starting Fusen Ryu jujutsu.

Why?... The recent grappling craze has meant everyone wants to start jujutsu. And in my experience, people invent a grappling club chuck in some punches and kicks and market it as ''authentic DEADLY jujutsu- sorry ''jiu jitsu or jiujutsu or jiyotuergkjdfgkljghjitsu'' as they would call it.

The reason Im interested in the Fusen ryu is due to their ne-waza. Im very interested in a traditional japanese jujutsuka's methodalgy with regards to the floor. Im not out to win fights-far from it, Id love to see e.g. how they focused or centered themselves-if at all, how they were taught to breath etc.

Plus things like how they develop a powerful 'dojime' constriction.

Is there anyone in the uk who teaches this, or something similar to this?

secondly are there any good history books on the subject.

I loved the ''4 lords of judo article''

best wishes

Matthew Banks

Dom C
3rd August 2001, 18:00
HI ...
I dont know anything of Fusen Ryu,
I was just wondering why you would be studying
a martial art and not be out to "win fights".
:D

MarkF
4th August 2001, 09:33
Dom,
Welcome to e-budo! Comments are welcome, but please sign your posts. It is one of a few e-budo rules.

Hi, Matthew,
I don't know if there are any fusen schools left out there. So many died out, but the techniques of the school can be found in a Kosen Kodokan Judo dojo, or any judo dojo which practices the ne waza as much as tachiwaza. Even with Kosen, you may have to go to Japan for instruction in their style of ne waza, or perhaps their concentration on ne waza.

I had heard of a fusen school in Germany at one time by way of the Internet, but cannot seem to find them anymore.

If you are truly interested in framing your study of grappling in ne waza, a check of local judo schools would be one avenue of finding an instructor who pushes the ne waza equally. But you do know one must get an opponent to the ground first, so even in schools of BJJ, there is tachiwaza. In judo competition, dojime is not permitted, so is not really practiced.

If kata is on your plate, then too, a search be made of schools which teach all kata officially taught today at the Kodokan Judo Institute.

But if you are disillusioned by the number of competitive schools, it doesn't mean you can't work through that, but with balance, both can be fit in.
*****

In the UK, contact the Budokwai.org (http://www.budokwai. org) and contact Dicky Bowen or John Cornish for help. The Kano_Society (http://www.kanosociety.org) or the British Judo Association may be of help.

John Cornish is still the Kata coach there and is still teaching.

I hope this helps some.

Mark

PS: Kodokan ne waza is based on fusen techniques and some of freestyle wrestling. BJJ can be a good grappling school, but attention to the center and kuzushi are generally not emphasized as it is in most judo dojo. It is good practice for groundwork, though, but judo is probably more complete in the above areas.

Of course, dojime is welcomed in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. BJJ isn't a Japanese martial art, but I'm not sure how important that is to you.

George Kohler
4th August 2001, 16:03
In the new book about koryu jujutsu, by Serge Mol, says that "the Fusen ryu continues today and is still active in Okayama; the seventh and present grandmaster is Inoue Kazutoshi..."



Mol, Serge. Classical Fighting Arts of Japan: a complete guide to koryu jujutsu. Tokyo: Kodansha, 2001

Edward Williamson
4th August 2001, 19:10
Banks -

Before E-budo crashed, I, also, put a request to anyone with information on the Fusen Ryu. It took a REALLY long time but someone did respond. Unfortunately, I don't recall as to where the gent said they were in Japan. He did say they were active though. Maybe he'll come back and put the info down again.

As far as studying ne waza via Judo - ya might want to think again. My understanding is that the ne waza of yesterday from the Fusen Ryu is very different from the ne waza practiced today by many groups. Granted, I think its important to ask yourself why you wish to study. As you said, you're not out to win fights. If this is the case, Judo is perfect. If you tried using it in a fight, you @$$ would be as good as kicked. However, the Brazilians did touch it up quite considerably. And, I've yet to see a judoka take someone of equal training from a BJJ school. You could, however, consider looking into other ryu as well that are available in your area. Granted, they are always hard to find but I'm sure you could find something if you looked hard enough. Again, BJJ schools do focus much, much more on the combat side of the realm. But, even so, they still don't allow anything thats considered possible to happen in a real fight such as poking, biting, hair pulling and so on. Of course, ya can't really practice these things. But rolling around on the group for minutes on end is silly knowing one of the persons could (and probably would) just start biting, pinching, poking, etc. Not to offend any judoka, but the ne waza in Judo is FAR FAR away from the curriculum of many jujutsu ryuha that exist today. Whenever there are rules such as no tekubigaeishi, hasame-gaeishi, ashikubi-gaeishi (and the list of what you can't do seems to go on forever and ever in Judo), then you might take the time to consider what you really value.


Dom -

Not everyone who studies the arts is interested in "winning fights". There are tons of arts that focus on purely on concepts such as the spiritual, aesthetic, sport, breathing and on and on. Don't get me wrong, everyone needs to have purpose. But not all purposes are the same.

BTW - there is site:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fightersnotebook/

This is supposed to be the biggest book on this topic available. I've seen a copy. Its quite impressive. And, its gotten great reviews.

There is also a site at http://www.bjj.org Just go to the page on tape reviews listed at http://www.bjj.org/lewis/ I'm told that Mario Sperry's tapes are the very best thing ever to hit the ne waza world. I've not seen them myself, but I've heard about a gajillion people say they watch them all the time. You can also click on the review button at http://bjj.org/lewis/sperry.html and find Mr. Lewis review of the tapes. Its extremely informative.

I, myself, don't practice BJJ but it would be foolish to say that they're not the leaders in what they do.

Best,

Edward

MarkF
5th August 2001, 11:21
Originally posted by Edward Williamson
Not to offend any judoka, but the ne waza in Judo is FAR FAR away from the curriculum of many jujutsu ryuha that exist today. Whenever there are rules such as no tekubigaeishi, hasame-gaeishi, ashikubi-gaeishi (and the list of what you can't do seems to go on forever and ever in Judo), then you might take the time to consider what you really value.

I'll bite again. I think you need to take a real long look at reality and not what is one the rules list at a tournament. In the long run and in the short, most equally experienced judoka will beat the BBJer (which I remind you is not a Japanese Martial Art and the name Gracie Jiu jitsu is copyrighted). There are some on this board who have experience in both, the judoka beats the BBJ player in NHB-type "fights." Two large reasons: Kuzushi and centering which are mostly absent from most BJJ schools.

Another is, just as in most koryu, those waza set aside for the safe practice of randori no kata and shiai, are alive and well in the Kodokan syllabus. Even weapons kata.

Another reason for judo is that it is nearby. While I didn't know that fusen is still practiced, it was practiced back then at the Kodokan, thus the katame no kata and other ground waza and atemi with various parts of the body, weapons, etc., were not just picked up on an afternoon challenge match, those fusen practitioners were invited to participate.

Yes, far too many judo dojo concentrate too much time on contest judo, but just like finding the elusive koryu, it can be done, and I would bet you would find it in kosen dojo, as well as other masters and teachers who give the time to ne waza as much as kata and randori no kata (two kata, really), atemi, and weapons.

Oh would you like to pass on your comment concerning judoka getting their collective A$$ beaten to Jon Bluming-sensei, ninth dan Kodokan Judo? He just loves challenges, and at sixty-nine is as tough as they come.
*****

I thought this entire "expect to be beaten if you do this or that" was over. I had thought most would know better than to speak of what one doesn't know. Apparently, it isn't.

Mark

George Kohler
5th August 2001, 17:21
These Websites are about Fusen ryu, but they are in Japanese.

Fusen ryu Jujutsu http://www.hoops.ne.jp/~mshirou/husenn/husenn.html

Takimoto-ha Fusen ryu jutaijutsu
http://isweb3.infoseek.co.jp/diary/hikousen/

Edward Williamson
5th August 2001, 23:34
My goodness, the Judo Police has arrived again.

Mark F:

"I'll bite again. I think you need to take a real long look at reality and not what is one the rules list at a tournament."

Why would anyone wish to do that? Judoka do one thing - prepare for competitions - Judo competitions that is.

"In the long run and in the short, most equally experienced judoka will beat the BBJer (which I remind you is not a Japanese Martial Art and the name Gracie Jiu jitsu is copyrighted)."

Sorry, wrong again. The biggest problem wish this kind of mentality (as is always seen by practitioners of inferior arts) is that they cannot see the "reality" at all. Whether something is in your curriculum or not means squat if it is not taught and practiced - and not during seminars only. And further, I never used the words or said anything even mentioning the word "Gracie". I simply said BJJ. And, I never said it had anything to do with Japanese. Try reading slower next time - one word after the other.

"There are some on this board who have experience in both, the judoka beats the BBJ player in NHB-type "fights." Two large reasons: Kuzushi and centering which are mostly absent from most BJJ schools."

Your right - that's because the focus is not on two people starting from a mune dori. It's from a strike - this being absent in Judo.

"Another reason for judo is that it is nearby. While I didn't know that fusen is still practiced, it was practiced back then at the Kodokan, thus the katame no kata and other ground waza and atemi with various parts of the body, weapons, etc., were not just picked up on an afternoon challenge match, those fusen practitioners were invited to participate. "

Whatever makes you sleep better. It makes no difference to me. This isn't new information. Everybody knows the story of Kano's students getting stomped by the Fusen because of their knowledge to fight on the ground. Kano impressed with the concept and the ryu invites them to come and teach. Six years later, the world almost never hears of the Fusen Ryu again. Even you, being a Judoka, didn't know of their practice today. In fact, most don't know but the ne waza of the Fusen Ryu is but only a small part of what they do. They've a larger curriculum focusing on other concepts as well - and they actually practice it.

As said on other threads, practicing a kata from another ryu doesn't make you a practitioner of that ryu. This sounds almost like the Yoseikan saying they practice Katori Shinto Ryu because Mochizuki has a dan ranking in the art - whew.

While I will agree that Judo is more accessible, it doesn't mean one should only go to whats merely available without research. This is why I said to look at what the value is based on what the desire is.

"and I would bet you would find it in kosen dojo, as well as other masters and teachers who give the time to ne waza as much as kata and randori no kata (two kata, really), atemi, and weapons"

Hmmm...I've been practicing for over four decades now and I've NEVER seen judoka practice anything but shiai for competition. That's not to say that the kind of training you speak of doesn't exist. But, once again, if one has to go to a special dojo to find it, we're no longer talking about the convenient factor anymore. Further, I'd bet that the majority of judoka today don't know jack about striking or weapons for that matter. Why? Because they're too concerned with winning instead of combat. Again, not to say there are not the exceptional few out there. But for the most part, Judo is the same everywhere you go. Rolls, Falls, and Body Throws - whoo hoo. No striking, no joint locks and extremely restricted grappling. And all because you can't do it in competition.

"Oh would you like to pass on your comment concerning judoka getting their collective A$$ beaten to Jon Bluming-sensei, ninth dan Kodokan Judo? He just loves challenges, and at sixty-nine is as tough as they come. "

Absolutely. Judoka scare me like a fart in the wind. Virtually none of them have ever been kicked, punched, poked, bitten, hair pulled, pinched, head butted, etc. Need I go on? Being in my sixties as well, I'd be more than happy to oblige those who need some education.

"I thought this entire "expect to be beaten if you do this or that" was over. I had thought most would know better than to speak of what one doesn't know. Apparently, it isn't."

"One doesn't know" would, again, be the assumption on your part. I've been a jujutsuka for quite some time now and don't have to go around getting all defensive about my art. If you're content with what you do, fine. Otherwise, stop whining.

My only reason in responding was to help out. If you can't take what someone says about your art, you better pack a lunch. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks Judo is great for body throws.....and......what else?

Playing nice,

Ed

Matthew Banks
5th August 2001, 23:51
Hi Ed,

What type of jujutsu do you do?




Matt Banks

Michael Becker
6th August 2001, 23:16
Generalizations dont help the debate. Nearly always you have to look at the practitioner first, before the art. I have met good and bad in every art I have seen and practiced.

I have met some very effective street fighters that practice judo, been swatted around a mat by a few so I would not dismiss them lightly. Nor would I dismiss the Gracie family, who still have an impressive record regardless of the hype.

The 'who would beat who' debate is pointless to all but those who would participate in a fight. Regardless of who did win a challenge, it still would not prove that one method was conclusively better than the other-only which person was better on the day.

There are traditional schools of judo in England that emphasise the art over competition. I have a friend that has visited a few in the North West, some of which also practice traditional jujutsu. He also told me that Syd Hoare in London knows the complete syllabus ( and his students are supposed to be very good ).

Meik Skoss
6th August 2001, 23:45
Mr. Williamson,

I have to take issue with your statement that judo is practised *only* for shiai. Granted, it appears that most judo dojo in the U.S. have gone down that road, but by no means all of them train for "sport competition" to the exclusion of the broader art. A good example is Fukuda Sensei's dojo in Frisco; so is the dojo where I am training here in Jersey. I daresay that there are others. They might be they're not as thick on the ground as before, but they're there.

You can get a darn good session of randori. If one's interested in what's the latest w/ re: effective tournament waza, it is available. You can also get a really good lesson in newaza as effective self-defense, along with a lot of pre-WWII techniques seldom seen in these times. Leg locks? What kind do you want? They're here! If it's other kinshi waza you're interested in, they're also available; you need but ask. It's best, however, to have a rather high pain threshold (my neck still hurts from a session last Tuesday).

I like to think of my dojo as one of the bastions of "judo as it was and ought to be" -- good physical training, mixed with folks one'd be happy to introduce to the family. There are no thugs and a lot of stand-up guys. Some of them may be a little rough around the edges, but, hey, it's a tough art. I can think of a lot worse places to train, and not many as good. (My two-bits worth of opinion.)

Cheers,

MarkF
7th August 2001, 11:42
I did have a post in mind, but I can't say it any better than did Meik, so my hat is off to cooler heads prevailing. It's a fault. I'm trying to get over it.

Mark

MarkF
7th August 2001, 11:54
BTW: "...judo police."

Is that anything like a Koryu Kop?

Kit LeBlanc
11th August 2001, 06:04
Seems the question of Fusen-ryu does continue to pop up from time to time. Matthew, search the jujutsu threads a while back and the same questions were asked, as it sounds like they were pre-Crash.

I have been lucky enough to secure video of a short demo of Fusen-ryu, by a group (not the only one) that does Iai as well. NO THE VIDEO IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR REPRODUCTION.

Anyway, the hot-for-newaza guys (myself included) would not be happy with it, as it shows NO newaza, just standing jujutsu (albeit done with a little more *oomph* than you see with a lot of koryu demos) and some pins, some armed kogusoku type stuff. It sounds like Ed is absolutely correct, they practice a lot more than just newaza. But who knows how much they focus on it now? I can't tell from a very short video of a demo, someone has to go and look around and find them.

Okay, that being said, the above is verging on becoming one of those "I don't know what I am talking about but I'll post anyway" threads, and I do not want to be guilty of one of those.

I do not know this, but for the sake of argument, isn't it possible, that as Ed points out "six years later" we never heard of the Fusen ryu anymore, because they were no longer very effective against Judo or whatever other schools after the guy that beat the Kodokan folks passed on (Tanabe, I believe his name was).

We need to look at what they are doing NOW to determine if it is very effective. It will do no one any good to practice Fusen-ryu simply because it is a koryu and does newaza (the anti-BJJ, anyone?) and beat the Kodokan......how many years ago was it? Talk about resting on laurels!!!



To address an issue that has been raised and countered, as well as some nuances, I might be able to add a little bit. I've done BJJ and Judo, some of it mixed with teachers that did both. I am also a Law Enforcement Ground Control Instructor, and have some opinions on the use of BJJ and Judo newaza for real life encounters.

In my limited experience, BJJ has very little different in it from Judo newaza, that is Judo newaza with all the old techniques that used to be allowed and techniques for fighting that are preserved in other forms. I think BJJ just has the primary focus on the ground.

But it is all in that focus. In the main, most Judo clubs seem to be modern shiai oriented, as is my club (but not me!!!). The focus is almost entirely on tachiwaza and tournaments. In randori, many people immediately go to turtle and simply say "the ref would call ma-te" and any chance at newaza (which I almost always go for) is over.

But there is one senior black belt at least who loves newaza and is very effective at it, and is indulgent enought to mostly do newaza when we get paired up. His comment on newaza is "There are four ways to win at Judo, and three of them are on the ground." He states the emphasis is simply with the particular club, and ours is not a newaza club. Some, maybe very few, very much are. One spinoff club in the Portland metro area is a Judo group that focusses on newaza and vale tudo, and its members fight in Judo tournaments, BJJ tournaments, and has guys preparing for Pancration fights come in to train. Still, Ed's argument that if you have to go looking for it, etc... is pretty much accurate. Meik's club, for example, sounds like a rare gem.

The only test of "which is better" on the mats would be to match a highly skilled BJJ man with a highly skilled Judo newaza SPECIALIST. I think under Judo rules the Judoka would win (BJJ does not stress escaping pins), under submission rules I think it would be a tossup, frankly. And the Judoka would have far more effective standup ability in addition to newaza skills. This matchup happened in a recent Abu Dhabi Submission Tournament , a sandan Kodokan Judoka who also fought shooto beat Saulo Riberio, whom many consider to be among the finest traditional BJJ practitioners in the world, to win his division. This was a no gi match, but since I consider that a disadvantage for both, they really had to adapt their skills to the environment.

Take your AVERAGE (not newaza oriented) Judoka and your average BJJ-er, and I think giving up a rank or two the BJJ-er would win on the ground with submission rules (but time it takes to get rank is another issue, and the BJJ purple belt may have far more experience than a Judo shodan).


The "combat" focus of BJJ is a misnomer. BJJ is a sport based on particular rules that favor that type of combat.

That being said, while I agree real fights start on the feet and a good hard throw will end it quick, they very often do go to the ground if the fight is in earnest, or if either party is attempting to actually control the other. In police work, fights, meaning with a motivated, resisting subject, virtually always go to the ground as after all that is what cops are trained to do, take the guy down and control to cuff. Both BJJ and Judo as generally practiced require modification for this.

CERTAIN elements of BJJ (as in Judo) are counterproductive to street fighting. For example, "Pulling Guard" is the last thing I would do intentionally on the street. It is effective as a last ditch measure, as there is some offence still available in this position, but I will point out that when striking is part of the game, the guard may not be where you want to be. Several highly qualified people have been bludgeoned senseless by a man IN THEIR GUARD in MMA fights, and this WILL happen on the street.

The guard is far better than the Turtle, though, which is suicidal for real fighting and is sadly what a lot of Judoka seem to go for first. Kashiwazaki criticizes the scramble for the turtle position in his Masterclass Osaekomi book and seems to be arguing for the guard. And he is speaking about Judo competition, because there is at least still offence from a guard.

You also do NOT want to be working from the bottom (pinned) in a real situation if you can at all help it, particularly if either you or your opponent is armed, and submission style wrestling under BJJ rules conditions people to work from the bottom before working from the top. Remember the koryu roots...you get pinned and then your throat is slit and your head is taken.

Since Judo focusses more on pinning and gaining the top position, I think Judo is better adapted (you do have to change many of the techniques) to real fighting when you have a top or pinning position. If you do end up on the bottom and all you want is OUT, the BJJ guy may take too long to work out from there based on what happens regularly in his training. I am learning that on the mat in Judo, do EVERYTHING YOU CAN to train yourself to get out of a pin. This is very good training for real world fighting. Everything except TURTLE that is....

Sorry went on so long...

Kit

Kolschey
11th August 2001, 12:52
Great post, Kit! It's a pleasure to have someone with your experience in law enforcement discuss the values and vulnerabilities of groundfighting. I have always wondered about the use of the turtle myself, as it always seemed like an invitation for soccer practice on one's ribs and head. One thing I find myself wondering, though I know this has been discussed previously at one time, is how edged weapons change the dynamic of groundfighting. One of the people I train with feels that the counter for this is cross training in arts that emphasise disarms etc, such as Silat or Jeet Kune Do, or better yet, become qualified with a legal concealed firearm. Both of these responses presume the prescence of the blade being known when both parties are still standing and at a certain range. How does groundfighting adjust to the sudden apppearance of a blade when both parties are on the ground?

Kit LeBlanc
12th August 2001, 02:04
Reading my above post I think I am guilty of generalizing myself somewhat in comparing Brazilian jujutsuka and Judoka, and some practitioners of either may very much fight like the other.

My overall point is that Judo and BJJ need some heavy modification (or I should say, ya need to practice putting the kinshi waza, as Meik says, back in) for real fighting usage. Still I feel they are among the best methods to train for such real world usage IF TRAINED with combative application in mind. I have trained in BJJ, Judo and traditional grappling, traditional Chinese fighting arts and sport striking/kicking. NONE of the latter has given me the confidence and ability in handling combative subjects, including armed persons, that I derive from regular training in BJJ and Judo. I re-read Ed's posts, and while part of me thinks they are a troll, I see that I agree pretty much with some of what he is saying, and disagree with some other stuff.



Originally posted by Kolschey
Great post, Kit! It's a pleasure to have someone with your experience in law enforcement discuss the values and vulnerabilities of groundfighting. I have always wondered about the use of the turtle myself, as it always seemed like an invitation for soccer practice on one's ribs and head. One thing I find myself wondering, though I know this has been discussed previously at one time, is how edged weapons change the dynamic of groundfighting. One of the people I train with feels that the counter for this is cross training in arts that emphasise disarms etc, such as Silat or Jeet Kune Do, or better yet, become qualified with a legal concealed firearm. Both of these responses presume the prescence of the blade being known when both parties are still standing and at a certain range. How does groundfighting adjust to the sudden apppearance of a blade when both parties are on the ground?

Let me preface by saying I am not a blade guy. I have some Chinese and Japanese style blade training, and some LEO training based mainly on Filipino weapons. I am still looking for that art that goes well with Judo and trains primarily in shorter edged weapons and batons (i.e. shortswords, jutte, etc.) and which trains in a manner which includes very close quarters (grappling) and gives realistic results. Learning naginata and spears and stuff is neat, but has little direct application for what I need it for, and the Filipino arts have some good stuff but just aren't for me.

The only live disarm I have ever done has been when a gal that I was about 2' away from bent down and picked up a kitchen knife (that her boyfriend had thrown at her) from a closet. Seeing the blade coming up I simply grabbed her hand with my left and the blade with my right and stripped it right out of her hand. I touched the blade but was not (luckily) cut. I do not believe that she was intending to cut me, but I really didn't have the luxury of thinking that out at the time.

I have grappled only once with a guy with a knife in his hand, and he had just closed it prior to my baton strike (missed!!! hence looking for that short weapon art... :)) I used the baton to assist in taking him down, and concentrated then on pinning him in a sort of half Uki gatame/half Tate Shiho, with my knee placed on the inside of his right bicep, my weight pressing right into the nerve, the goal being to immobilize the arms. I had him in such a way that both arms were trapped, which is exactly what I strive for if things go to the ground in real life. Luckily I hit him hard enough on the take down that the knife went flying and was out of the picture.

To address Kolschey's points, I think that in real world close grappling, the bad guys arms and hands will be what reaches for his weapons, or for mine, so that is what I want controlled. My own arms, elbows, even my head if absolutely necessary, but *especially* knees are used to pin the head, neck or ideally one of the arms, and I will snatch up the other one for a lock (the Kimura version of ude garami, my bad guy on his stomach or side with my knee pinning his opposite arm is a fantastic technique for control...it keeps the head up, you are sitting on the bad guys neck and head, and it is easy to transition to other positions.) Basically pinning one of his arms with my knee frees up both my hands, and I can control the other arm with my left (preferably) and deploy my own weapons or handcuffs with the right. I would probably use the same sorts of methods if he was on me with a knife and we went down.

I shudder to think it, but a halfway decent Judoka, BJJ-er, or wrestler should be able to take his man down, control his body and limbs there while limiting the man's head movement and visual field, and produce a knife without the man knowing it to begin some street surgery. Being able to so effectively control a man's position and movement is a very bad thing if you are the one controlled....

Interestingly, a very good knife defense method showing up in LEO training, and once used successfully by a BJJ-er against a pair of knife wielding assailants in Australia, caught on tape yet, is to drop on your back and use your feet to kick, block the blade (hopefully you have shoes or boots on) and/or blade arm, and keep the guy off of you. LE wise it also gives you time and distance to draw the firearm and shoot the guy. The knife wielder has to adapt to his primary targets being taken away instantly and buys a few seconds. Not the best method, surely, but it works very well in training and has in certain live circumstances. I have seen a very similar method taught in a koryu art as well!!!

I am not big on disarms at distance. My method for that is a .45!

Check out the tanto dori thread in the Aikido forum for some other takes on the same subject.

Kit

Scott Laking
13th August 2001, 06:50
Hi Kit,
Thanks for putting me on to this. This tread has gone so far off, I doubt that the guy who brought up the first question even reads this anymore. I'm not saying that it hasn't been extremely entertaining though.
I'm sorry to say that I don't think you will find Fusen Ryu in the U.K. . My instructor who has studied under and received a license to start his own "Fusen Ryu Osaka Bunkei" from the present "Honkei Soke, Inoeu Kazutoshi, said that he doesn't know of any (other than myself) foreigners who have studied Fusen Ryu. There may be a Japanese instructor in the U.K. but I really doubt it.
That's the bad news. The good news is, there is no secret "newaza" in Fusen Ryu. We beat Kodokan because they weren't any good at newaza at that time. Though we practice a lot more ground work at my Fusen dojo than we do at my Sekiguchi Ryu dojo, I think you would be better off doing Judo or BJJ if you want to concentrate on ground work. As Kit observed in the video I sent him, there is mostly stand up, take to ground techniques. Though much of the stand up and kneeling waza we do can be applied when wrestling (there are a lot of moves in Fusen that I am taught at Shooto as well). You should be able to find the same Fusen newaza in Kosen Judo. There are a few small "secret points" that I've been taught but I doubt that the other styles don't have the same "secret points" Just nobody talks about them :look: .
"if Fusen Ryu is so hot, why don't we hear about it after they beat the Kodokan?" The answer is, they weren't hot enough. None of the Koryu were. Everything turned to Judo. Just like the Kenjutsu schools all turned to Kendo. Even the almighty Sekiguchi Ryu had to give in to Judo. The soke of this art as well ended up teaching first, Judo and second, Sekiguchi Ryu.
It was a change in the times here in Japan. Koryu had to give in to the "DO" arts. Not that Koryu was no good or couldn't win in a fight. But more that you didn't need to win a fight anymore. Koryu had lost it's usefulness. It's sad to think that it's usefulness has been revised. (ah, before you guys start to crucify me about the usefulness statement, I realize it's a broad word. But that was and still is the view of the general public here in Japan). The bucks (or Yen so to speak) were (and still are) in Judo and Kendo.
As for present Fusen schools, the soke is in Okayama, and there is a bunkei in Osaka and Hiroshima and there will be a school in the U.S. next year.
As for the Judo vs BJJ thing, most of the Shooto guys here have had judo experience. One of my instructors, Nakao Jutaro also came from Judo. He'll be fighting in the UFC in September. He's beaten a former UFC champ, Pat Militich and a UFC undefeated Lavern Clark so far. Though I must say what he does rarely looks like Judo, his killer technique is his Triangle choke.
Most of the Shooto people prefer BJJ over Judo but..... so what?
Hope the info on Fusen was en lighting.
Scott Laking

carl mcclafferty
13th August 2001, 14:32
Scott:
Its good to see you joining these discussion.

Carl McClafferty

Benjamin Peters
16th August 2001, 23:28
Dear Matthew,

To help address your original question, unfortunately I do not have information with to Fusen Ryu.

However your interest in the 'ground-work' aspect of combat maybe addressed to some degree be going to the below link (which provides videos on Kosen Judo).

A quote from the web page:
"Nihon Kosen Judo
Kosen judo is a form of judo adopted by the major high schools and technical schools during the Meji Era (1868 1914). It emphasizes newaza (ground techniques) such as controls, joint locks and strangles. This is the style of judo that was taught to the Gracies in Brazil. "

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page42.html

Ellis Amdur
17th August 2001, 00:06
I believe that this is incorrect. Maeda is of an earlier generation - the turn of the century, in fact, long before there was Kosen judo established. Kodokan judo, in the early days, incorporated information from a variety of sources (Fusen Ryu, among them, as I read here), and in addition, many of the people who joined the Kodokan brought with them the skills from their own ryu. The Kansai area was known for their groundwork - it is my understanding that Takenouchi Ryu was a significant influence here. In addition, people kept studying - innovating - developing new techniques. Maeda among them. It is my understanding that Maeda accompanied several higher ranking teachers, among them Tomita in the early 1900's to America. At the end of a several hour demo in the hot sun (at West Point, I believe), a hefty gent got up and asked Tomita what he would do "if I did THIS" and tackled him. This was the impetus to lead Maeda on his barnstorming tour (sort of a musha shugyo), taking on all comers and honing his own skills against wrestlers, etc. In the process, he developed his ground fighting skills to a very high degree. (Years later, when he returned to Japan, one of his students was Mochizuki Minoru, who was among his many accomplishments, known for his newaza.)

I have seen no information about what, in detail, he taught Carlos Gracie, but he was apparently only in Brazil a few years. It is probable that in that time, he emphasized newaza - perhaps because it won him his own matches, and also, as the great judo newaza specialist, Kashiwazaki Katsuhiko puts says, the development of throwing techniques is limited by natural talent, whereas groundfighting improves based on hard work and repetition.

Kosen judo, thus, can almost be regarded as a kind of parallel evolution to BJJ - at roughly the same historical period, (1920's-30's) two groups, for their own reasons specialized in newaza. Kimura, for example, is considered one of Kosen's own.

An added point is that BJJ continued to be profoundly influenced by judo over the years. Kodokan 8th dan, Kastriot Mehdi (a student of Kimura) has a dojo in Rio, and he has taught a number of the younger generation of BJJ "lions." (He was a member, for a few years of Carlos/Helio's dojo when he, an accomplished judoka first arrived in Brazil from France, but became profoundly estranged. He has willingly taught a number of their students/family, etc.). One other example is the "triangle choke" was brought into BJJ by a student of Rolls Gracie (I believe), who according to the account, found it in a judo book, and started choking out all his dojo mates when they'd "pass the guard" in the way that Rorian Gracie shows it on his original tapes.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

Benjamin Peters
17th August 2001, 00:34
I am a man of few words.
:laugh:

Kit LeBlanc
17th August 2001, 01:49
Ellis nailed it.

You'll find some BJJ and Judo websites stating that BJJ is a continuation of Kosen judo, Maeda was a Kosen judo guy, etc. Until recently I thought the same thing because I had read it so much, but when ya look at the dates, it simply cannot be....

Most Maeda chronologies have him in New York in 1904, with a dojo in '05. The Kosen tournaments didn't start, according to Kashiwazaki's Ippon Masterclass Osaekomi book, 'til, 1914, and the Kodokan rules change to avoid "pure newaza judo" came in 1925. Maeda is usually noted as being in Brazil around 1916, and by the mid to late 1920's the Gracies were learning from Maeda. He died in Brazil in 1941. He was given a posthumous 7 dan in 1967 or 1968.

What he did teach probably came a lot more from him standing 165-168 cm and weighing 70 kilos and having to adapt his judo to fight bigger, stronger Westerners in challenge matches and pro-wrestling. He undoubtedly went for simpler takedowns and groundwork, where, contrary to popualr belief, if there is a disparity in skill the smaller, skillful man has a better chance.

Kit

Yamantaka
18th August 2001, 10:54
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
In the process, he developed his ground fighting skills to a very high degree. (Years later, when he returned to Japan, one of his students was Mochizuki Minoru, who was among his many accomplishments, known for his newaza.)
Ellis Amdur

YAMANTAKA : Dear Ellis San,
That's very surprising to me. Do you have precise confirmation on that statement?:confused:
Best

Ellis Amdur
18th August 2001, 17:59
I don't mean that Maeda was his only teacher. Mochizuki studied most centrally, I believe, with Mifune. I recall reading the statement about Maeda in a book by John Stevens, title forgotten, but it was about Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba.

Ellis Amdur

Yamantaka
18th August 2001, 21:20
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
I don't mean that Maeda was his only teacher. Mochizuki studied most centrally, I believe, with Mifune. I recall reading the statement about Maeda in a book by John Stevens, title forgotten, but it was about Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba.

Ellis Amdur

YAMANTAKA : Thank you for your answer, Ellis San! I know a bit about Mochizuki's background and teachers and I have the book by John Stevens ("3 BUDO MASTERS"), even if I do not consider Stevens Sensei a very trustable historian...
I hoped you had further comprobatory data on Maeda teaching Mochizuki.
Anyway, thank you again.
Best regards

MarkF
19th August 2001, 10:46
Just a note on the accuracy of the time period, Yukio Tani began "taking all comers" in London, by 1900 or 1901. He beat virtually all of his challengers with the "triangle choke" or sangaku jime. Only when he couldn't display it did he use other methods, savoring them wisely. The following is from an article, originally printed in *Warrior Dreams* by Graham Noble and today is seen on EJMAS (http://ejmas.com) :
****

"Yukio Tani was never too good with dates, and even the one date he did quote -- September 26, 1899, when he and his brother arrived in London at the invitation of E.W. Barton-Wright -- was wrong. Richard Bowen has established that the two came to Britain in September 1900, and were followed not long after by S. Yamamoto. Yukio Tani was to stay in England for the rest of his life, but his brother and Yamamoto returned to Japan within a year, possibly due to a disagreement on the use of jujutsu as "entertainment."

When Barton-Wright gave his lecture before the Japan Society of London in 1901 he took along Tani and Yamamoto to demonstrate jujutsu technique. They showed the throws and locks of the art and then Yamamoto performed what seems to have been pretty much a standard feat among many of those early jujutsu pioneers. He lay on his back with his hands tied and had a pole placed against his throat. Three men on either side of the pole held it down while two stood on Yamamoto and another two held his legs in position. At a signal these ten men pressed down to prevent Yamamoto moving, but within twenty seconds he had escaped the holds and was a free man.

At the same lecture Barton-Wright gave a demonstration of "locking" on a volunteer from the audience, the six-foot tall Lt. Douglas. "The lecturer," the report read, "a much smaller man than his opponent with the greatest of ease threw him down and in a variety of practical performances illustrated the modes of obtaining victory."
****

MarkF
19th August 2001, 11:04
Originally posted by Kit Leblanc
I am still looking for that art that goes well with Judo and trains primarily in shorter edged weapons and batons (i.e. shortswords, jutte, etc.) and which trains in a manner which includes very close quarters (grappling) and gives realistic results.

I was thinking about this as I read your post, Kit. Have you thought about SMR jo and even bringing it into the dojo?

I know Meik and Diane Skoss use/teach jo at their judo dojo in Jersey.

Actually, it could be played with, trying different lengths, etc. (OK, it then may not be a jo technically, but Kit did say he was looking for usefullness, and the jo seems to fit).

Anyway, it was just a thought.

Mark

pboylan
19th August 2001, 16:14
I have to agree with Mark. In North America, probably the art that best fits your description is Shinto Muso Ryu, though you'd probably enjoy the branch of Araki Ryu that Ellis Amdur teaches. The real trick with koryu is just finding a dojo. I would also add that most of the koryu jutte/batton, short stick and short sword stuff really isn't suitable for use in 20th century Amercia. It's fast, short, brutal, and tends to aim to maim or kill. These are not results that generally go over well with the local constabulary. I feel it's better to train in stuff that has the OPTION of raising the stakes, but doesn't require it. At least if you're doing this out of a desire to have it available for street use. If you're studying out of pure interest on the other hand, then whatever you find interesting is cool.

You'd probably love the Takenouchi Ryu, but the closest you're going to find any of that is Hawaii.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Martial Arts Books, Videos and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com

gabro
6th August 2005, 18:43
I am reviving an old thread, as there is something I have been wondering about for a wee while now. Where was the "fusen ryu beating kodokan" story first mentioned? Everyone seems to say it these days, but I can only trace most instances to S. Cunningham (from Judo-L) or the Gene Simco book (which I haven't read yet). Surely it will be mentioned somewhere else as well. I am not saying I don't believe it happened, I would just like to know where I can learn more about it.

Cheers,

Mads

gabro
6th August 2005, 18:53
Ok, I find another source in EJMAS. http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm
to be precise.

Thank you, Mr. Svinth, for making me look stupid on a saturday night :P

Cheers,

Mads

Raspado
3rd January 2006, 19:43
Are there any Fusen Ryu schools (ground fighting) still surviving in Japan? Did Fusen-Ryu master Mataemon Tanabe forward his lineage outside of Kosen Judo?

Thanks!

Mike

Cron
3rd January 2006, 20:43
Hello.

Well, my teacher learned Fusen ryu in Tsuyama (Okayama prefecture). His teacher was Inoue sensei. I'm sorry to say but the contact between my teacher and Inouse sensei broken off.

Could somebody tell me if the Dojo is still active?

Thanks.

Michael Reinhardt

Raspado
3rd January 2006, 21:56
Was this the newaza Fusen Ryu. From what I read only some of the Fusen Ryu schools studied newaza.

Cron
3rd January 2006, 22:04
Hello.

Im sorry, but I dont have any special informations abour the ryuha.

Steve Delaney
3rd January 2006, 23:03
Shin Mei Fusen-ryu jujutsu is still operating out of Osaka.

Shin Mei Fusen-ryu website (http://www.bushinjuku.com/arts/bushinarts/fusen/index.htm)

scar Recio
4th January 2006, 11:19
Im curious to know where i could find some information about the evolution and developing of the ground fighting as people understand in the modern times (Bjj, MMA). IMHO i dont think that in Classical Martial Arts (such as Koryu) the "ground techniques" were "similar" to the ones used in Kodokan Judo or Brazilian Ju Jutsu, basically because "ne waza fighting" as is seen in Modern Judo or BJJ, was senseless in battlefield founded arts, as some Koryu are.

My question is, i know that all the suwari waza and some "ground techniques" were developed for indoor situations as being inside a house, in the bedroom, sleeping and suddenly awaken by somebody, fighting from a sitting position or resting position til be able to draw your weapon or be able to stand up and take proper advantge from this position. Actually seeing the Fusen Ryu clips and doing some research on my own is confirming my theories about it...

I would really like to know from where exactly this/these influence/s comes from and WHY people still believe about classical ju jutsu have in their curriculums "ground teachniques" as the techniques seen in Judo or BJJ.

MY ignorance is just too much on this field.. :P:P:P

Thanks in advance for your assitance.

Sincerely,

scar Recio

Raspado
4th January 2006, 16:06
Oscar, who is the author of the quote--what is his background? I would actually like to put that quote on another thread. There's a guy in the Brazilian Jujitsu community refering to himself as 'master', when he is only a black belt and the most senior teachers don't call themselves master.

My understanding that some of the Fusen Ryu schools developed ground technique--probably from suwari waza as you implied. I could easily see using juji-gatame for knife disarming if you were attacked from a prone position. From Fusen Ryu-to Kosen judo the history is know. I'm particularly curious if the Fusen Ryu school which defeated Kano is still in existence and still practicing ground work.

Raspado
4th January 2006, 16:17
Steve, I'm particulary interested if Fusen-Ryu master Mataemon Tanabe's school is still living. The Osaka school did not list him in their lineage.

scar Recio
4th January 2006, 18:23
The quote is from Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei of shindo Yoshin Ryu.

You can find more information about him here:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=91

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=472

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=222

His inputs and thoughts about MA and MA practitioners are really interesting.

Sincerely,

scar Recio

scar Recio
4th January 2006, 18:27
BTW...raspado...post your full name...ok? ;););)

scar Recio

Raspado
4th January 2006, 18:57
My name is Mike Geery. I live in Tampa, Florida where I practice Brazilian jujitsu. I also have a black belt in Aikido under Mitsugi Saotome.

www.tampabjj.com

scar Recio
4th January 2006, 19:01
Thank you for your quick answer!! ;););)

BTW..i hope that you found the information about Takamura sensei interesting.

BTW...i would really want to know about the evolution from Kosen Judo to BJJ, i dont know the whole story and some people invoking and claiming that BJJ comes from Ju Jutsu well... IMHO, makes me a bit shocked...could you please e-mail me or send a PM with those details. I would really appreciate it. I always thought that Koma was a Judo guy not a Ju Jutsu practitioner.

Thanks in advance.

scar recio

Raspado
4th January 2006, 19:23
No problem Oscar. Since I work all day on the computer, it's easy.

Koma was one of the students Kano sent over to be trained in Fusen Ryu so Judo could have the technigues. Kosen judo was set up in high schools and colleges around Japan because it was so effective for competition. However the matches ended up taking too long and most of the time was on the ground. Kano changed the rules limiting the ground time and many of the kosen judo senior students like Koma became very upset at this and there was internal conflicts within the kodakan. Kano sent many of the disruptive students abroad. Koma was one of them.

Koma first traveled to the US with another senior judoka. This judoka was defeated in a match in the US and Koma went his separate way. He eventually made his way down to Brazil (during this time he was fighting in street brawls). It was then he taught "jujitsu" (as he called it because he felt the techniques were more from Fusen Ryu jujitsu then Kodokan Judo) to Carlos Gracie Sr. Carlos Sr. taught his nephew Helio and from there it spread to the family, then the world. The Brazilians basically had 60 years to develop and strenghten the original ground techniques they were taught before really openinig it outside of Brazil.

Hissho
6th January 2006, 04:01
Oscar-

BJJ is linked to jujutsu through Judo.

Maeda was a judoka. He was studying at the Kodokan at the time when the matches with Tanabe occurred (c. 1900). He most likely would have been exposed to Fusen-ryu through the fact that Tanabe was involved with Kodokan supposedly teaching his newaza after he defeated Kodokan representatives.

Supposedly Yokoyama Sakujiro was Maeda's main teacher. Tanabe appears in Yokoyama's Judo Kyohan demonstrating various newaza holds and submissions, so there is some documentation of a possible link. Of course, based on the same information it is more probable that the jujutsu Maeda did was Tenjin Shinyo ryu. That is, the jujutsu he did that was not "judo." Back then we are really splitting hairs by differentiating judo and jujutsu - something that the BJJ community seems not to grasp.

I'd like to see a documented source that has Kano "sending" Maeda to learn Fusen-ryu.

Kosen Judo has no connection with Maeda, he had left Japan (he was in New York by 1904-1905) by the time Kosen Judo started becoming popular (c. 1914 per Kashiwazaki).

scar Recio
6th January 2006, 12:12
Thanks for your comments.

The thing is that what i woudl really want to know and understand is how the transition was developed from the Fusen Ryu techniques, that i imagine were mostly suwari waza, to the ground techniques as seen in Kodokan Judo or Brazilian Ju Jutsu.

In a lot of MA forum and MA comunities people are claiming and supporting the concept and idea of Classical ju jutsu having ground work and grappling style like the modern MMA disciplines. From what i study and practise is quite wrong conception and understanding of the historical compendium and mindset of old Koryu schools.

My own theory focuss on weapons. Not fighting with the idea of drawing a weapon or having the possibility to draw a weapon or use it, IMHO, is one of the main aspect that influenced the changing and "evolution" of the ground techniques. Again, IMHO, i think that most of the people talking about ground techniques are using the concept of people indoor, sitting, sleeping or something similar that, with the use of the "ground techniques" or i would say "strategies", will be able to deal with an attacker in a controlled close space. Even with the pressence of multiple attackers those techniques were designed for short-time responses to be able to draw a weapon, be standing again and deal with more attackers coming.

The exclusion of weapons due to historical circumstances changed drastically the mindset and curriculum of a lot of Arts, and again IMHO, theres no better way to defend against a weapon that know how a weapon works. The better you fight with a knife the better you understand how to defend against one. Of course the same would be applied to Ne waza, the better you are in ne waza the better you are able to defend yourself against a situation with a ground fighter But the thing is a different one.

For what ive been researching the modern grappling/ne waza used in BJJ and modern Ju Jutsu got no connection with any old/classical/Kroyu style of ju jutsu and, being the hysterical/semantic zealot i am i associate Ju Jutsu with the Japanese ju jutsu. I know that is my problem and, maybe, im tto strict but Ju Jutsu would be better designed to refer to a specific discipline with a specific historical background and foundations (core principles).

Ne waza/grappling is just one aspect of an Art, except if the Art is solidly focussed in it but calling it Ju Jutsu makes people believe that Ju Jutsu of the past looks like the modern one., I know, i know...im a silly dreamer...bffffffffffffff

Anyway...going back to my question. Is there any chance to know or look after information to see or understand the evolution from Fusen ryu to Kodokan/Kosen Judo to the modern ground technqiues? Why exactly the Gracie call themselves Gracie Ju Jutsu? just because Maeda used the name Ju Jutsu? I dont really care about if they use the term Ju Jutsu or not, is they own bussines so im not attacking anybody or any system and claiming, as some people over the forums did that "my ju jutsu is the real one and not yours"..

Kit,
If Maeda studied TJSR i would like to know more about this specific background and see where the Atemi part is on the BJJ.

Again guys, sorry for being so "sinlge minded" or "foolishly rigid". Maybe im too much on nomenclature.

Thanks for your attention and inputs.

Sincerely,

scar Recio

MikeWilliams
6th January 2006, 12:41
Why exactly the Gracie call themselves Gracie Ju Jutsu? just because Maeda used the name Ju Jutsu?

Until fairly recently Judo and Jiu-Jitsu were used fairly interchangeably in the west. Mostly they described the same thing: Kodokan Judo, or eclectic styles based on Kodokan Judo. You only have to look at old books, training manuals, newspaper articles and adverts to realise this. I think the term Judo only really became the dominant currency after its inclusion in the Olympics.

In the early years of Judo, I think the same is true in Japan - i.e. a lot of folks referred to Kodokan Judo as jujutsu.

So Maeda comes to the west and calls what he does Jiu-Jitsu, because that's the term in common usage at the time. And the people he fights or teaches understand that point of reference. That's really all there is to it. I have seen no verifiable sources that state that what he was doing was anything other than Kodokan Judo.

As Kit succunctly put it:

Back then we are really splitting hairs by differentiating judo and jujutsu - something that the BJJ community seems not to grasp.

Now, the Gracies probably just stuck with the term Jiu-Jitsu because that's what they were told it was called. Later on, it served to differentiate their style from the global spread of Judo. This is no bad thing, as BJJ is NOT the same thing as Judo (despite what some Judo zealots claim). But it does not imply that the Gracies had some kind of direct link to Fusen or any other koryu - except via the Kodokan.

oisin goodall
6th January 2006, 14:48
just in relation to bjj and judo, i understand that leglocks are not allowed in competition judo(i think they feature in the higher dan syalabus) yet they feature in the bjj sylabus, who this have come about through some vague link from bjj to a koryu style. doesnt sambo have strong judo heritage and yet they specialise to a degree in leg locks. I understand that its a military thing if you break a guys leg in combat it takes three men out of the field becuse two have to carry him.
any thoughts
Oisin Goodall

Hissho
6th January 2006, 15:04
What Mike said.

Oscar-

I wouldn't look to define BJJ by "classical jujutsu" standards. BJJ comes from modern judo, but at a time when modern judo was closer to its jujutsu root. Even Kimura, when fighting Helio Gracie, said it reminded him of old style judo. It changed with the circumstances of challenge fights and professional wrestling bouts common in Brazil.

However, having had the benefit of having your SYR teacher do his work on me, I think you would be surprised that BJJ may have more in common with SYR than Judo would in terms of how it is approached and the physical manifestation of principles. The good BJJ guys I have rolled with (i.e. brown belts, black belts) are softer on the ground than the judoka of corresponding rank. In some cases FAR softer. They use more techniques, they have many more ways of getting into them, and they are less interested in a pin than maintaining a control position. That may sound odd, but what it translates to is more fluid control versus powerful, solid hold downs that don't move. This is not true of every case, but in general it is what I have experienced.

BJJ does not borrow its atemi from classical JJ, though if you look at some of their "self defense" it appears like Judo goshin jutsu. If you ever saw some "old school" BJJ stuff, you might be surprised (knuckles punches to vital points to loosen up arms for locks, etc. )

But by and large BJJ draws from boxing and muay Thai for its atemi.

I would also hesitate to say that there is nothing in classical jujutsu that resembles Judo/BJJ groundwork. Certainly the focus is different, but it will also be different between a Sengoku era battlefield JJ and an Edo period self-defense jujutsu. There is still a thread that runs through them. I can think of several techniques that I have learned that are found in BJJ. I have several times mentioned a technique from one style that involved a tomoe nage, followed by attempts at a collar choke, which the defender straight arms to defeat and gets hit with juji gatame. Kiraku-ryu has a throw followed by dropping into a juji gatame. The little Araki-ryu I did had several "last ditch" battlefield survival moves which were very similar to BJJ moves, done against a knife. Which is another reason I have often pointed out that when you take judo and BJJ, adapt them for the fact that you are wearing weapons or your adversary may be carrying a weapon, you often end up with stuff that looks very similar to classical JJ.

MarkF
6th January 2006, 15:16
No problem Oscar. Since I work all day on the computer, it's easy.

Koma was one of the students Kano sent over to be trained in Fusen Ryu so Judo could have the technigues. Kosen judo was set up in high schools and colleges around Japan because it was so effective for competition. However the matches ended up taking too long and most of the time was on the ground. Kano changed the rules limiting the ground time and many of the kosen judo senior students like Koma became very upset at this and there was internal conflicts within the kodakan. Kano sent many of the disruptive students abroad. Koma was one of them.

Koma first traveled to the US with another senior judoka. This judoka was defeated in a match in the US and Koma went his separate way. He eventually made his way down to Brazil (during this time he was fighting in street brawls). It was then he taught "jujitsu" (as he called it because he felt the techniques were more from Fusen Ryu jujitsu then Kodokan Judo) to Carlos Gracie Sr. Carlos Sr. taught his nephew Helio and from there it spread to the family, then the world. The Brazilians basically had 60 years to develop and strenghten the original ground techniques they were taught before really openinig it outside of Brazil.

I apologise for quoting the entire post but this is written very much in the style of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stylist and is so misinformed I had to say something. I do very much agree with Kit concerning what Mitsuyo Maeda taught.

First of all, Kano never "sent" anyone anywhere. He recommended students to other teachers because he felt they could further their education by doing so. No one was made to go anywhere. He was a part of the Kodokan the rest of his life and still is (see bust of Maeda at the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo). The Kodokan graded Mits. Maeda twice while he was in South America, to yondan then to godan. If he was disruptive, then what about Yamashita Yoshiaki? He was actually arrested and jailed for beating at least one man because he went beyond necessary self-defense from the attack but did not stop his counter attack after the man lay prone. This did not sit well with Kano. Did Yamashita go to Washington to teach jiudo to the US President as punishment?

As for the rules of contests, well, whose rules were they? It was Kano who stated that they needed some rules so to be able to tell them who won. This was noted at the first major challenge match in the young life of the Kodokan. Only one judge could say whether or not one could or could not continue. That was the only rule of that match[es] other than those that were agreed to between all contestants. But don't forget that even in the misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu over the Kodokan that the vast majority of matches were draws. The idea was not to win the matches but to prevent the superior nage waza of the Kodokan from being used. Most of the fusen-ryu challengers simply dropped to the floor as soon as the two would get close to each other. Did the Kodokan win? No. Did Fusen-ryu win? Well, they did prevent most of the combatants of the Kodokan from imposing their tachi-waza therefore it was a loss by the Kodokan but not a win, necessarily, by the fusen-ryu. The combatants from Fusen played for the draw and caught the Kodokan with its shitagi down. While it has always been stated as a loss, it really was a draw, but more importantly, the idea of practical Newaza had begun to take shape. Certainly fusen played a role, but so did free style wrestling of the West.

Yes, a judo player lost who was traveling with Maeda in a match Maeda refused to fight. Why did he refuse? What is the source which says this person and Maeda split based on the man losing a single match? That just doesn't make sense, and there is no real proof that was the reason. Both were looking to wrestle professionally so to make a decent living and they may indeed have split for this reason, each taking a different road. Also, you have left out all the time Maeda spent in Cuba, Spain, where he supposedly picked up the name Conde Koma, and the time spent in Mexico. Maeda also challenged Jack Johnson to a match but Johnson wanted too much money up front. This happened while Maeda was in Cuba and Johnson in Canada (I think). As Kit points out, Maeda was a Judoka. While the amount of time he spent training with Carlos Gracie is not known for sure, what makes this point of contention interesting is that in Carlos Gracie's books, two published in the 1940s, were almost entirely based on nage waza. If Brazilian jiu Jitsu began as a ground sport, perhaps Carlos (Jr.) and Helio split on this point as is rumored. Helio learned what he learned while watching Carlos train in his dojo, and it is Helio who is known for the groundwork, not Carlos, at least as far as we know. One of Carlos' books is still available if you look around.

Jiu Jitsu=Judo or jiu no michi or yawara no michi, kanji are the same, romaji is still in flux. Maeda called Jiudo jiu jitsu because that is how most referred to it. For that reason, BJJ stuck with that interpretation. Later in
California, Rorion Gracie "sort of" copyrighted the name but not for the reason many believe he did. In fact, he only copyrighted the name of his Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Academy "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" but he also made clear that what he taught was "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" not Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

How did Kano "change" the rules to shorten ground time other than, perhaps, of limiting the time in a non-submission hold down, or pin? We do not know for sure that it was his rule, but what we do know is that he was the person who suggested some type of rule "...so they will know who won." Matches had no time limits, and the only rules during the early Kodokan challenge matches was that a single judge would be the one who decided when a player or players could not continue. For the most part, matches remained unlimited up to WWII, and beyond. Even when I began judo training in the early 1960s, only matches for juniors had a time limit, but it certainly changed shortly after that. After all, shortening matches to only one ippon throw did the trick in most cases. Before that, two ippon were necessary to win a match or submission or by timed pin or hold down.

It is pure speculation at best that Maeda taught fusen-ryu technique and therefore the reason he called it "jujitsu." The Kodokan did remember him with a bust calling him one of the greatest newaza men in Kodokan history." That is very long leap of faith to suggest he taught anything other than Kodokan Judo.

In any organization there will be conflicts but in Maeda's day, it was growing but not that big. There were conflicts within the Kodokan over such things as a time limit in shi-ni-ai? What time limit? What was the rule of that day concerning newaza? until the 1980s, newaza was allowed to continue unabted as long as there was progress, and the only "rule" was a minimum time of thirty seconds to win via a pin again, this does read very much like a BJJ web site.


Mark

johan smits
6th January 2006, 15:55
Hi Mark,

Just to add a little bit about this interesting although for my taste a little bit confusing post.

Not that I know so much about Fusen-ryu in the first place but I have picked up some things during the years.

You state:


"But don't forget that even in the misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu over the Kodokan that the vast majority of matches were draws. The idea was not to win the matches but to prevent the superior nage waza of the Kodokan from being used. Most of the fusen-ryu challengers simply dropped to the floor as soon as the two would get close to each other. Did the Kodokan win? No. Did Fusen-ryu win? Well, they did prevent most of the combatants of the Kodokan from imposing their tachi-waza therefore it was a loss by the Kodokan but not a win, necessarily, by the fusen-ryu. The combatants from Fusen played for the draw and caught the Kodokan with its shitagi down. While it has always been stated as a loss, it really was a draw, but more importantly, the idea of practical Newaza had begun to take shape. Certainly fusen played a role, but so did free style wrestling of the West."


Well, misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu, that is interesting. How come it was mininterpreted? I do think I have read Kodokan lost, which gave Jigoro Kano the idea that his judo should be more balanced and needed more or better newaza.

Since to all accounts I am aware of the idea that Fusen-ryu specialized in newaza seems not correct. There is a big chance that Tanabe sensei of Fusen-ryu was a newaza expert but that is something different. It is quite possible Tanabe sensei contributed a lot to newaza of Kodokan judo but that is not the same as that Fusen-ryu contributed.

I have always wondered if Fusen-ryu played such a heavy role in the formation of the curriculum of the Kodokan how come it is never credited for that. No English source ever claims any schools other than Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu. This is from memory but I am pretty sure of it.

About Brazilian jujutsu well I don't know much about it, what I do know is that the self-defence books I have seen show straight-old-fashioned jujutsu, not more nothing less. Practical enough I should add.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

scar Recio
6th January 2006, 18:23
Thanks for all your comments and inputs, i really appreciate them.
It was a worthy lesson to read your comments and thoughts and helped a lot with my own theories about it.

Maybe the evolution im trying to see is just to hidden or too obvious about the Ne waza.

Kit said:

I would also hesitate to say that there is nothing in classical jujutsu that resembles Judo/BJJ groundwork. Certainly the focus is different, but it will also be different between a Sengoku era battlefield JJ and an Edo period self-defense jujutsu. There is still a thread that runs through them. I can think of several techniques that I have learned that are found in BJJ. I have several times mentioned a technique from one style that involved a tomoe nage, followed by attempts at a collar choke, which the defender straight arms to defeat and gets hit with juji gatame. Kiraku-ryu has a throw followed by dropping into a juji gatame. The little Araki-ryu I did had several "last ditch" battlefield survival moves which were very similar to BJJ moves, done against a knife. Which is another reason I have often pointed out that when you take judo and BJJ, adapt them for the fact that you are wearing weapons or your adversary may be carrying a weapon, you often end up with stuff that looks very similar to classical JJ.


I agree totally with you, specially about the part between the mindset and focus between Segoku Period Ju Jutsu and Edo..200% agree with you opinion.

Thanks a lot guys.

Sincerely,

scar Recio

PS: Kit i would really like to know your thoughts about how you felt the SYR practise with Threadgill sensei in relation with what weve been talking about here. I was a practitioner of different MA before SYR, one of them for nearly 10 years and i practised intensively Ne Waza for a looong time so.... Send me a Pm or something about it. Ill be waiting.

Raspado
6th January 2006, 18:28
Mark, thanks for your reply. I apologize for my ignorance-hence this is why I am here. My references for my information comes from two sources, one being a book by Kid Peligro "The Gracie Way" and two from this website:

http://www.geocities.com/ibfaustralia/jujutsu.html It certainly was not my intention to insult anyone due to my mis-information!!!

Aaron T
6th January 2006, 18:48
It sounds like everyone is on the same page here (excuse the pun,) but I will throw in my 2 cents Canadian.

Really it comes down to this, context of application and the fact that the body is not infinite.

What everybody calls koryu did not develop the focus on ne-waza or grappling skills because the context of application dictated that it was not an effective application.

Edo and Meji period we see a huge shift in the context of unarmed combatives and combative sports. As people begin to focus on any one aspect the technical merits get developed to a higher level.

As to Sombo, it is a combination system, which pulls heavily from judo/jujutsu but also heavily from a variety of Central Asian wrestling types.

It is a tricky thing becasue our desire to classify and come up with intelectual classifications and rules drives us. It is part of being human I would guess.

But, at some level all combatives/combative sports/combative pastimes comes down to one ultimate goal, winning. (Yes even the guys who wear funny pants and relate a wrist lock in context to the cosmos at some level are driving towards victory.) If I am grappling my grappling skills will develop, if I am in a swordfighting culture the sword skills, if I am shooting, the gun skills, if I am arm-wrestling those skills. As a famous kid once said..."chicks dig guys with skills..." :) it is all about context.

Koryu are no more real or dealdy etc than gendai and visa versa. It all depends on context. I know there are a number of folks out there who have a lot more historical information etc than I do and are much better spoken. But really what it boils down to is that everything is really fairly simple and of course more practice less talk.


Regards,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

Raspado
6th January 2006, 18:51
But Aaron, the talking is so much fun!

Hissho
7th January 2006, 06:39
Aaron-

I think that kid was specifically talking about bo-staff skills. Though I seem to remember something about "numb chucks."

Mark-

I'm gonna hafta go with Johan here and ask where you got your info about a "misinterpreted" win? As best the sources I've seen say, it was not once but twice that Kodokan members lost. I have also thought there was speculation as to whether it was just Tanabe or a group match.

Are you sure you are not thinking of the 1886 matches when you mention the draws? If not, where are you getting these details?

Raspado-

I wouldn't use that link as a source for very much.

Aaron T
7th January 2006, 18:36
Bo-staff and numchuck skills...you bet..and his brother was training to be a cage fighter.

Something about a Liger as well...

Aaron Fields

MikeWilliams
7th January 2006, 20:32
the idea that Fusen-ryu specialized in newaza seems not correct. There is a big chance that Tanabe sensei of Fusen-ryu was a newaza expert but that is something different. It is quite possible Tanabe sensei contributed a lot to newaza of Kodokan judo but that is not the same as that Fusen-ryu contributed.

I have always wondered if Fusen-ryu played such a heavy role in the formation of the curriculum of the Kodokan how come it is never credited for that. No English source ever claims any schools other than Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu. This is from memory but I am pretty sure of it.

Now this is interesting, because that ties in with my own impression from reading between the lines in all the judo history I have read. But I am no scholar and admit to knowing virtually nothing about the technical curriculum aspects of koryu. I'd love to know more.

Mark's post was interesting too - I have only ever heard that Fusen won those encounters outright. But - if as Mark implied, the Fusen guys basically pulled guard and stalled, I can see how that would have annoyed the Kodokan competitors intensely. I can also see that would have inspired development of newaza techniques (or *whisper* maybe just shiai rules...) to deal with that occurrence. Anyone who has ever spent 6 futile minutes of a BJJ comp trying to pass some stallers closed guard will sympathise.

---

Re. Kid Pelligro and 'The Gracie Way' - while a thoroughly entertaining read, Kid is a long, long way from being an independent, objective commentator.

Actually, the best BJJ history (from a BJJ perspective) that I have read is in "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher. From memory, there was some historical interpretation that was open to debate, but overall it was a remarkably open-minded and objective piece. The technical bits of the book aren't bad either.

---

Aaron - that post summed it all up nicely, and made me laugh too.

johan smits
7th January 2006, 20:44
Mike and everyone,

There is not much info on Fusen-ryu but visit Bushinjuku.com if you haven't already. It is a great site and contains some info on Fusen-ryu and other stuff.
Any questions on Fusen-ryu are best put there is my quess.

For Aaron: you've got mail uhh, just to let you know. (can't get these damned smilies to work)

Best,

Johan Smits

(okay the damned smiley worked)

Aaron T
7th January 2006, 22:15
Mike,

I'm glad someone besides myself thinks I am funny. Tounge always firmly in cheek, is one of my rules for life.

Johan I have not recieved any mail.

Aaron Fields

johan smits
8th January 2006, 10:41
Aaron,

You should have now, if not I'll contact you this week.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Shinobi
9th January 2006, 06:40
If you want to know about Fsen-ry ask Scott over at bushinjuku.com, he is very up on the art as he studied it with Matsumoto-sensei. There is a whole forum section on it. From what he told me, Fsen-ry does not have a section on ne-waza perse, but tachi-waza and suwari-waza that goes into ne-waza positions/situations and when doing randori you get to explore or do more ne-waza that’s in the "kata".

Scott’s teacher Matsumoto-sensei unfortunately stopped teaching Fsen-ry to focus on Enshin-ry Iai Suemono-Giri Kenp, a sword style that he heads. On a side note, this is the mainline, not the breakaway from Tanaka Fumon.

Maybe one reason Scott doesn’t list Tanabe Matauemon on his site, as there was a split in the style, both splits ending up back in Inoue Kazutoshi. Not sure if there is a current ske, or just shihan-ke/shihan. Fsen-ry is also not part of the Nihon Kobud Kykai.

Lineage: Motsugai Taiosh Fsen (founder) - Takeda Sadaii Yoshitaka - Tanabe Torajir Yoshisada – split occurs
Split 1 - Tanbe Yoshishir Yoshimitu - Nakayama Eisabur Yoshyiuki - Nakayama Kaza
Split 2 - Tanbe Matauemon - Yoshida Saiz - Inoue Atagoware
Back into - Inoue Kazutoshi Yoshitsugu
Inoue’s lineage:
Line 1- Yoshino Haruo - Uchitani Eiji (Bicch Nagao-den)
Line 2 - Masumoto Takamasa (bunke, quit to focus on Enshin-ry)

If there is any other branches I am not aware of them, info is from Scott’s site and Ueno-den booklet.

I have seen a video of Matsumoto-sensei and two of his students performing the Taihen-no-waza level and it is truly a shame he stopped. His jjutsu was amazing and very precise and sharp with lots of flow.

From what I saw, there was tachi-waza "standing techniques" and suwari-waza "seated techniques" that both had some brutal sutemi-nage that resulted in some ne-waza positions. But since it’s a kory jjutsu style you want to finish it as quick as possible and not wrestle around for a 30min in a regulated match. So lots of finishing strikes, joint locks, chokes, tant disarms and or stabbing the guy once you pin him.

How much Tanabe Matauemon contributed to the formulation of a ne-waza curriculum for the Kdkan that would end up being focused on by Ksen jd and GJJ/BJJ we may never know.

Here is a picture of a ne-waza position one ends up in a suwari-gata from the taihen-no-waza level of Fsen-ry.

Hope this helps.

Cron
9th January 2006, 06:51
Hello Eric,

its possible to buy the Video of Matsumoto-sensei or get a copy?

Best regards,

Shinobi
9th January 2006, 07:08
Hello Eric,

its possible to buy the Video of Matsumoto-sensei or get a copy?

Best regards,

Sorry it was a gift and private. I would have to ask permission. Hope you understand and can respect that, thanks.

Cron
9th January 2006, 07:25
Hi Eric,

well, no problem :)

But, another question: exists video material about Fusen ryu?

Regards,

johan smits
9th January 2006, 07:29
Hi Michael,

There must be something on the Bushinjuku.com site.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Cron
9th January 2006, 07:52
Hi Johan,

thanks for the adress, I saw the movie.
Looks very interesting.

I saw a short demonstration here in Germany. Maybe its possible that an seminar will be in march.

Regards,

johan smits
9th January 2006, 07:59
Hi Michael,

There's Fusen-ryu in Germany? Could you give some details?


Best Regards,

Johan Smits

Cron
9th January 2006, 08:07
Hi Johan,

well, normaly Fusen ryu is not learned here in Germany.
My Iaido Sensei learned under Inoue Sensei.

A few years ago, he taught Fusen ryu in Bremen.
At the moment we try to organize a Fusen ryu seminar.

Best Regards,

johan smits
9th January 2006, 08:23
Michael,

Give Henry my best regards, we still train some of the kata he taught us.

best,

Johan Smits

Cron
9th January 2006, 08:28
Hi Johan,

wow, I dont know that you are a friend of Henry!

If the seminar will be in Bremen, I will inform you.

Best regards,

Mekugi
9th January 2006, 16:27
If there is any other branches I am not aware of them, info is from Scotts site and Ueno-den booklet.

There is a branch out here in Aichi ken somewhere. I lost track of them, but I still have the pamphlet from an embukai we did with them. I am not sure who they are affiliated with, but as far as I know they are still active. A great many of their tecniques were indeed from standing, and they did end up pinning and locking a few times.

Incidentally, Scott has some video of it up: http://www.bushinjuku.com/media/video/fusen_enbu.MPG

Mekugi
9th January 2006, 16:34
Kosen Judo has no connection with Maeda, he had left Japan (he was in New York by 1904-1905) by the time Kosen Judo started becoming popular (c. 1914 per Kashiwazaki).

While there is no evidence that Mr. Maeda trained in Kosen Judo whatsovever, I would like to point out that the first big tournament in which the Judo of the kosen schools took place in 1914 yet this stuff had been developing before that with the practicioners of the Kosen schools and inter-school tournaments. I believe that Maeda was exposed to a newaza style of Judo randori, if by nothing else other than extension of fundamental ideas and experience.

In Taisho Era (from 1912 to 1926), Kyoto University Judo Club played an important role in Japanese Judo and gave lots of influence to it. In Taisho 3 (1914) the Judo Competition of Higher schools and Colleges (Kosen Taikai) was commenced in Kyoto under the sponsorship of Kyoto University Judo Club at Butokuten (the name of the place where the competition was held). Year by year this Kosen competition grew bigger and bigger and had many participants all over Japan. In the Kosen competition, we did not have any restriction on practicing "Newaza" (ground work), so that we could fight under the rule of admitting "Hikikomi". Owing to this rule Newaza prevailed all over Japan. Of course, we had to have an antagonism to Kodokan, because Kodokan considered it very important to practice with Tachiwaza (standing technique). But judo competitors who had made efforts to fight with standing technique were defeated by students of higher school and colleges (Kosen) and even by those of middle schools who were skilled at "Newaza". In Taisho 14(1925), the president of Kodokan, Mr. KANO Jigoro who created Kodokan Judo, visited Kyoto University Judo Club again and required to obey new Kodokan rule where Newaza was not regarded as important (70% standing technique, 30% ground work). The members of Kyoto University Judo Club and KANO groups discussed for two days. But they had come to no understanding with each other. As a result, Kosen Competition were continued till 1940 without changing its own rule, which was called Kosen rule.

johan smits
9th January 2006, 18:22
I was re-reading this thread and I noticed something Aaron said:

"Koryu are no more real or dealdy etc than gendai and visa versa." - although I agree with that I know from my all too shallow skirmishes with koryu jujutsu that the mindset can be different. Some koryu styles are more towards really destructive techniques than anything I have experienced in gendai jujutsu. Mind you I have no experience with Yabe ryu-ha the art Aaron trains and teaches and on which I have sent him a pm.

About the Kosen - Kodokan thing, from one of the websited I understand that the technqiues did not differ so much but more the rules under which they fought.

About Brazilian jiujitsu, maybe one of the reasons they liked to go to the ground so much is that even with a minimum of training you have a huge advantage on the ground against an untrained opponent. Much more so than against a standing opponent. In one-on-one that is.

Just a thought.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

MikeWilliams
9th January 2006, 19:59
About Brazilian jiujitsu, maybe one of the reasons they liked to go to the ground so much is that even with a minimum of training you have a huge advantage on the ground against an untrained opponent. Much more so than against a standing opponent. In one-on-one that is.

True dat. Standing, nearly everyone has a puncher's chance. Consider also the very short time (4 years?) Carlos Gracie Sr trained with Maeda, and Helio's small stature, and you can see the beginnings of a fighting strategy...

Although interestingly, all the photos in The Gracie Way of Carlos and Helio training together show tachiwaza.

Aaron T
9th January 2006, 20:02
Just as a side note on my background, mostly so folks understand I do have perspective on both gendai and koryu

I practice a meji period jujutsu, judo, and sombo, as well as Araki ryu.

I have dabled with Mongolian folk wrestling too, but hard to find practice partners outside of Mongolia.

The context of practice is what dictates the major differences and focus of the budo in question.

Johan, I still have not recived any pm, I would suggest contacting my directly. I will send you a mail with my personal e-mail

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo

www.seattle-jujutsu.org

johan smits
9th January 2006, 21:22
Aaron, thanks man! Just send you mail, if it doesn't arrive I'll go insane.

Mike, what you said about the photo's of Carlos and Helio showing tachi waza. I don't know the book but that's interesting.
I got a feeling, thru posts but also because of the self-defence techniques shown in books on Brazilian jiujitsu that what they learned was pretty much old-fashioned jujutsu (this is not a negative comment).

Couldn't it be that they developed the idea about groundfighting on their own? I mean independent of judo, Kosen or Kodokan or some unknown old school of jujutsu. The streets of Brazil and the challenges being their testingground? In that case there would almost be no connection to groundfighting from Japanese styles.

Daah it's getting late.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Ubermint
9th January 2006, 21:41
All right, let's list the theories of the origin of groundwork then, shall we?

1: Derived from battlefield-era koryu techniques where a warrior would defend himself on the ground and try to draw a small weapon. There's actuall a type of kumi-uchi devoted solely to doing this, utilising a positional strategy much the same as in bjj and judo, which is, of course, ironic considering the amount of flack we take about weapons on the ground.
There's actually a technique shown in "Classical Jujutsu" where, in full armor, you drop to open guard and scissor sweep his front leg.

2: Derived from bodyguarding techniques used while sitting in seiza, and/or goshin-jutsu used to defend oneself while on the ground.

3: OMG BASICALLY JUST JUDO LOL. Select this option if you are clinically retarded.

4: Derived from fusen-ryu techniques used in challenge matches.

5: A product of the genius of any number of early 20th century jujutsuka, including maeda, tanabe, tani and kano.

6: A mixture of two or more of these factors.

Hissho
9th January 2006, 22:07
While there is no evidence that Mr. Maeda trained in Kosen Judo whatsovever, I would like to point out that the first big tournament in which the Judo of the kosen schools took place in 1914 yet this stuff had been developing before that with the practicioners of the Kosen schools and inter-school tournaments. I believe that Maeda was exposed to a newaza style of Judo randori, if by nothing else other than extension of fundamental ideas and experience.

Oh, no doubt.

As I've noted many a time, Maeda was at the Kodokan right at the time the match(es) with Tanabe were occurring. This was obviously a time when newaza would have been focussed upon strongly. As far as we know it was not even a "newaza style" of Judo (a la Kosen judo). Perhaps it was just Kodokan Judo as practiced then. Before the Olympics, before a great many rules changes and banned waza.

On the note regarding newaza vs. an unskilled opponent. Agreed.

We should also remember that in many of the challenge matches with trained opponents of the day, the Japanese fighters (Tani, Miyake (both with Fusen-ryu backgrounds) and no doubt Maeda) also fought wearing dogi, and had their opponents do the same. (Sometimes you see reference to the fact that they fought both with and without the "Japanese kimono.")

Even today, the thing that separates the wrestler from the BJJ man or Judo newaza man is putting the former in a dogi, and then letting the newaza man use shimewaza. Changes the entire nature of the game.

And I think Aaron pretty much captured the essence when he mentioned the context of practice.

What you are using it for, the arena that you expect to fight in, changes dramatically how you do what you do.

Judo newaza operates under very different rules, and the vast majority of people training it are concerned mainly with those rules - not with the best applications of groundfighting for street encounters, and not with how to fight under BJJ or MMA rules. Context affects both how principles are manifested and how technique is efficiently applied.

Same same for BJJ, for MMA, and for classical jujutsu.

If my main focus were to pass on a tradition without change, I would train very differently than if my purpose were to find the best way to win under a specific rules set. If my goal is self defense in the modern day, with modern realities, modern weapons and carry options, etc. involved it is again very different. Hell, its different even within different modern contexts (civilian, LEO, LE tactical, military, etc.)

That is why I tend to see the totality of jujutsu practice along a continuum, versus the easy pigeonholing of "classical combat tradition/modern combatives/combat sport" and sneering at whichever one it is I don't do. I have gained very useful things from all three, based on what my overall purpose for it is - and even that spans the continuum from conditioning to historical interest, formal and informal competition, and combative application.

Certain training methods are simply better for particular things. None of the flavors of these arts have a monopoly.

Aaron T
9th January 2006, 22:13
One thing that has been unsaid (not taking awasy from all that has been said)...

Is grappling is fun...ne-waza is fun, nage-waza is fun...A whole lot of fun. Half of my life later I am still like a kid, 4-5 days a week before practice. I get all giddy and jazzed up.

Combat this and that..who cares..lets have fun. In the end, save a few of us, fun is the real reason to practice any sort of budo is fun.

Aaron Fields

Hissho
9th January 2006, 23:06
Ultimately that is really it, isn't it? Would any of us be doing it if it wasn't?

I have never practiced an art that was so much fun, trained so many muscles, and developed so much flow and strategy with almost no equipment needed. It is also the most adaptable style of training I've ever done, so even when you're having fun you are imprinting skillsets used in a variety of applications.

johan smits
11th January 2006, 08:37
Fun is defininitely one of the main reasons. I agree - why fill your life with something you actually do not like if you have a choice?

I have been thinking with all the popularity of the arts and all the people coming to these arts, from different walks of life, different professions, it seems easy to lose perspective. What Kit and Aaron wrote about fun is something all practitoners should have in common I quess.

An example - I started jujutsu training some thirty years ago and never stopped (okay I had times that I practiced only an hour a week). Naturally I made all the wrong assumptions about training, about attitude, etcetera a young man makes. Being an avid reader of the martial arts books in the '70's didn't help me, on the contrary.

Later on I started training in different arts, amongst others an art of Japanese origin, centering on on medieval weapons with the sword the central weapon, available in Europe. There has been a lot of controversy
about this system in the past here on E-budo. I will not mention this art since it was Katori Shinto-ryu (Sugino-line).

But apart from that all. I stopped training after only a few years. Why, did I like it? I did. Was the teacher no good? No he was fine, knowledgeable and a gentleman.
It was just that I could make no connection between this art and my life this day and age.
With jujutsu this never has been the case. I am a civilian but I echo Kit in this I have never found an art (for me jujutsu) which gave me so much. Do I use it? Daily, keeps me in form (more or less), keeps me tough (makes me feel my age - training with a 200 pound fire-fighter does nowadays).

If I would have stayed on training with the sword it would have become a mere hobby for me (playing samurai so to speak). This I felt would be a dishonesty to my teacher and most of all to myself. This is not meant to criticize other people or other systems. Not at all. If people want to look like Toshiro Mifune, with beard and tight back hair with some loose strands, that's okay. If that's their idea of fun,cool it's not mine but it's cool.

Don't remember where I read it -

"We're all gonna die
no matter what we do
so you take Ellen
and I'll take Sue."

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Aaron T
11th January 2006, 16:49
Johan,

Nice post,

oh...and the e-mail has still not arrived, you may be bugged. :)

batakhan@speakeasy.net

Aaron Fields

johan smits
11th January 2006, 21:27
Thanks Aaron,

about the mails I just don't get it. Pm me your adress and I'll write you a letter. I'll bet that arrives.

I'll try again.

Best,

Johan Smits

johan smits
11th January 2006, 22:02
Aaron I just sent you two mails. If these don't arrive please mail me at:
johan.smits@minbuza.nl and I'll reply that.

Best,

Johan Smits

Joseph Svinth
13th January 2007, 07:57
A one-word theory on why the Gracies went to the ground: Capoeira.

If you want a two-word explanation, then may I suggest: Vale Tudo.

An example. In 1928, a judoka fought a capoeirista in a So Paulo fairground. According to the papers, the much larger Bahian easily knocked the Japanese down. But, when the Bahian went to finish the fight by kicking the Japanese in the head, "The little oriental by the use of a Jiu Jitsu hold threw the Bahian and after a short struggle he was found sitting on the silent frame of the massive opponent." By the way, that was a Japanese community newspaper, published in 1928 by a Japanese American man who had studied judo under Tokugoro Ito (but been advised by Ito to take up boxing instead, as he didn't have the knack for judo), so I wouldn't get all wrapped around the usage.

k4013b
24th January 2007, 02:35
Hello,
Yes, yes, I used the search function, but found nothing that helped me with information on Fusen ryu as an independent school (not Judo). Is Fusen ryu still in practice and taught to this day? Thank you in advance.

George Kohler
24th January 2007, 02:36
Please read our rules about using your full name.