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BULLDOG
9th November 2003, 16:28
Hello,

I need you help in resolving a debate that evolved in to full out argument at or dojo.

What is the difference between Japanese vs. Okinawa Karate?

The comparison can be in regards to technique – martial philosophy –or what ever you wish.

I look forward to your response.

Thank you.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

Wushu Monster
9th November 2003, 17:16
Hehehe, I was about to post the same thing :D

Mitch Saret
11th November 2003, 00:34
From what I have seen, most Japanese kata, coming from Shotokan, eliminate the angles of Okinawan kata. If you are using Shotokan as your basis for comparison, as I am, look at the Pinan series as an example.

Funakoshi, an Okinawan, created Shotokan for the Japanese school system. Feeling that Pinan Shodan was too difficult for the first form to learn, he switched the order of 1 and 2. Also, instead of making a turn of 225 degrees and ending on an angle, he made the turn 270 degrees, finishing 90 degrtees from the start. Additionally, some of the steps were altered so the form was to finish in the same spot. Not necessarily true of the Okinawan versions. Finally, besides creatin and adding the Takiyoku series for the younger students, he changed the name of the series to reflect the Japanes pronounciation of the kanji to Heian.

Am I accurate in my assesment? Only from what I have heard, seen, and read. I am by no means an expert, but this scenario makes sense, and is what I have come to pass along to my students.

Patrick McCarthy is by far more qualified then I am to answer this question, as are others.

Budoka 34
11th November 2003, 13:15
My understanding is that it comes down to movement and power generation.
Japanese karate is "hara" based. All movement originates fron the hara.
While in traditional "Okinawan" karate movement comes from falling or creating a temporary center of gavity away from the body.
According to Sensei Dan Smith and others, the difference in how power is achieved through movement is the major difference between Japanese and Okinawan karate.

I would also be very interested in hearing Sensei McCarthy's and other opinions on this subject.

:smilejapa

Shikiyanaka
11th November 2003, 21:15
I can understand the saying that Okinawan people used Karate as a means for building an undomitable spirit: that is due to their history...

In Japan the mindset seems somewhat different, although there is also the "mind" and "character" thing; but in different context.

Nagamin Sôchin, quoted from National Geographic Vol. 191, No, 6, June 1997, said:

"The Japanese believe that he who attacks first will be the winner [text partly omitted]. Not in Okinawa. The phylosophy of karate involves shin, gi, and tai - heart, technique, and body. Karate's true value lies within the heart. Here, through meditation, we train our hearts - in concentration, endurance, self-control, and, most important, modesty of mind. 'Nuchidu takara - Life is the most precious thing.' It's something we often say in daily life."

So maybe the mindset is the source - or at least a main factor - of the difference?

Mitch Saret
11th November 2003, 22:41
I agree with the last post. Mainland Japan had been quite a militaristic society, accounting for much of their philosophy of the arts. Okinawans tended to be more rural, farmers and fishermen. Makes for quite a different mindset.

Mike Bandy
13th November 2003, 19:56
A few of the traditional okinawan karate styles were heavily influenced by the chinese martial arts. I have studied okinawa-te personally and there are a lot of flowing circular movements mixed in amongst the more standard linear karate techniques. There are also some animal forms kata and techniques.
Mike Bandy

Shikiyanaka
13th November 2003, 22:32
I believe in the mindset thing is a main difference.

1609 Ryukyu kingdom was invaded by the Shimazu. Shimazu clan built up their control systems of garrisons, weapons ban, metsuke (spies) etc. and took away Ryukyus prosperity gained from trade with China and S.E.A. They marched on the island, forced the king and ministers (Sanshikan) to officially state that this invasion was necessary and righteous!!! Although acceptance of that was never gained, Okinawans did the only thing the could do: the tried to arrange with it!

When Okinawans journeyed to the imperial court in Tokyo to obey the emperor they were allowed to show dances, culture and also sometimes Te and/or Kobujutsu... before the exotic animals were shown to the amusement of the emperor. Had to arrange with it.

1879 Ryukyu was made Okinawa-ken... again, they had to arrange with it. (Nariyuki Agarie, a professor of social psychology at Meio University, said: "We tried to be good Japanese, but it didn't quite sink in. [...] When the Japanese crown prince visited Okinawa in the early 1920s, we lined the way to get a look at him. In the rest of Japan, casting one's eyes upon the crown prince was unthinkable." Good example of how Okinawans looked at their high cultured patriarchs, who in turn considered them as "barbarian" peasant people. That's quite funny.)

Chinese name Tode-jutsu was not fitting big bad patriarch Japans way of thinking... had to arrange with it (made Karate with the "empty" instead of "China" Kanji of it. That worked.)

WWII Okinawa was sacrificed by Japan... they had to arrange with it.

Now 70% of US facilities in Japan are on Okinawa (strategically essential because of China and North-Korea)... have to arrange with it.

A very very big part of Ryukyuan pine tree were killed by bugs... starting from a chemical, petroleum or weapons storage of Kadena Air base (as far as I remember)... OK, nobody did this intentionally, but: have to arrange with it.

1/3 or so of Okinawa is occupied by U.S. facilities. I am not saying this is good or bad, but imagine the worst case: one day Okinawans will suffer again from what was once a trade strategical position and is now a military strategical position. Again... they would have to arrange with it.

Karate - as I understood - developed for building an indomitable spirit and strong body to be able to deal with and to bear this sort of arrangements, which are prevalent (is that the right word?) until today. Its not a hero thing (or maybe sometimes?).

Shikiyanaka
19th November 2003, 11:25
Okinawan Goju Ryu Kata often does the first step directly from Musubi-dachi. Japanese Goju-Ryu often open up first from Musubi- to Heiko-dachi. :)

Okinawan systems very often include Kobudo in their curricullum; for example in Matsubayashi Ryu Kobudo Kata are part of the ranking (at least from Shodan up, I think). At least many of the Okinawan styles follow the principle of "Karate and Kobudo as two wheels of an axis."

Hurricane Sokon
20th November 2003, 09:09
To the uninitiated eye the difference between Japanese karate and Okinawan karate is probably nil.

Japanese karate at the risk of stereotyping, tends to be more athletically inclined, with a main purpose of instilling discipline, reverence to authority, self betterment through Zen and the competitive spirit. The student is expected to fit into the system and not vice-versa.

Okinawan karate usually emphasizes simplicity, minimal effort with maximal gain, reverence and respect for what the Okinawan culture has afforded you, self preservation and consistent diligence in training. It also tailor fits the practitioner based on their abilty and needs, and abhors violence for violence's sake.

The (Okinawan) kata serve the main function of teaching a system's fighting techniques. Although there is an added physical benefit, that result is secondary and not emphasized as it is in Japanese karate. Kobudo/Kobujutsu is an integral part of yudansha level training, and is thought to benefit the karate-ka in their empty hand techniques too. Many styles of Japanese karate practice kobudo, most of it of Okinawan origin, but many still don't emphasize its importance.

Japanese karate, and many Okinawan styles as well, changed their purpose when greats like Itosu, Miyagi and Funakoshi sought to gain acceptance from the Japanese government by changing karate so it could be taught in the school systems. Making karate safer, fun and competitive, and attempting to figure out how to make a form of randori for karate (sparring), totally changed its intent.

Funakoshi Gichin felt that this change was for the better. It helped spread this Okinawan based MA around the world. He gave it to the Japanese as an altered product, so that what when was it offered to the public it would be more palatable and less "risky". He understood the brutality of tode and mentions this in his book "Karate Kutsu". He gave them a diluted representation of his country's fighting traditions so that it could somehow retain viability and permanence. Sad, yet genius. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.

Each brand of "karate" has its place. Like cars, not all MAs are created equal. Some are Yugos and others Rolls'. Which is which is all relative to your position in time-space :).

BULLDOG
20th November 2003, 14:24
Hello Hurricane Sokon,

Thank you for your input.

May I ask, is there any further proof to support your statement?

I agree with you. This has been my position in regards to this subject over the years. I have also utilized the same fact source, but have not stated in such a clear and concise method. If you do not mind, I will print your reply and read it during our next Black Belt meeting. Maybe your words will have a greater effect upon my fellow dojo mates, who are on the other side of this debate.

I have also utilized old pictures of Funakoshi Gichin, showing the differences in what was started and what shotokan is today. You can see Funakoshi, with his obi knot to the side –or- wearing a black slash. You can see the more upright stances. You can see Funakoshi teaching with a pair of sai’s.

Hurricane, I have also utilized the comparison of what happen to the TKD community to illustrate similarities. What old school TKD, mu duk kwan and so on, demonstrated is drastically different in comparison to what the WTF is today. The process is almost exactly the same as the conversion of Shotokan / Okinawan to Shotokan / Japan.

Thank you for you response.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

CEB
20th November 2003, 14:31
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
Okinawan Goju Ryu Kata often does the first step directly from Musubi-dachi. Japanese Goju-Ryu often open up first from Musubi- to Heiko-dachi. :)

...

Not true many Okinawian schools also step to heiko dachi.

Shikiyanaka
20th November 2003, 15:02
Oh my god, not only that they began to bow like the Japanese...

CEB
20th November 2003, 15:23
Actually I believe going from Masuba Dachi is the newer practice. JundoKan goes straight from Masuba Dachi. Jundokan claims to be teaching Miyagi's karate from the time of his passing. I believed Miyazato Sensei when he said this. Goju Men from lines that shoot off from Seiko Higa and Seikichi Toguchi go to Heiko Dachi first. Higa didn't train under Miyagi regularly after taking his job in Saipan in 1937. He returned to Okinawa later but wasn't in Miyagi's dojo that often. The people that pride themselves in doing "the old ways" go to Heiko Dachi. I always felt, but I don't really know this for a fact, that the reason Japanese Goju Kai practitioner went to Heiko Dachi was that the central core of their Goju dated back to pre-war Goju. They wen back and got more lessons later but there basis was old Goju. Goju continued to evolve until Miyagi's death. All Okinawian Karate seems to want to evolve. In villiage traditions if you aint family its was expected that you changed the name of your method if you went out on your own (3 stripes).

My old films of Kanei Uechi show him going to Heiko Dachi. I think this is the Uechi Ryu way.

Shikiyanaka
20th November 2003, 16:38
Good point. Yes, the old Uechi videos clearly show the opening in Sanchin.

I thought Seiko Higa was the one who already trained with Miyagi under Higashionna (do I remember correct?), and Toguchi also was one of the "pre-war students" of Miyagi. So if this is right the opening maybe actually really changed under Miyagi.

What about the Meibukan?? Yagi Meitoku also was one of those who began training earlier. And I think I remember, that Yamaguchi Gogen went to Yagi to check and learn Kata?

Shikiyanaka
20th November 2003, 19:54
Ed, you are right!

I checked the Seeinchin video on "Wonder of Okinawa": Yagi Meitoku also opens up in Heiko-dachi.:)

If Seiko Higa and Toguchi also open up this way, this actually seems to be "the old way".

Hurricane Sokon
21st November 2003, 08:00
Originally posted by BULLDOG
Hello Hurricane Sokon,


Thank you for you response.

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

You're very welcome sir. Thank you for being receptive to my input. I'm just giving my analysis based on what little I know of karate's history. I would think that filial piety- reverence for one's culture- would be as strong in Funakoshi as it was/is in many proud Okinawans. I guess you could think of my views as a critical optimism in lieu of the known facts.

There is no disputing the fact that Funakoshi sought to make the "barbaric" techniques of Ryukyuan karate more user friendly. Broadening the scope of a product will usually increase mass acceptance.

This also had the added benefit of giving karate worldwide appeal. Exposing the West to the warrior philosophies of Asia gave us insight into the ways of bujutsu and budo. This diversification of experience can only be considered a positive gain. At the same time, although karate should remain united as a form of MA, the myriad of differences existing in the countless ryu/ryuha should not be forgotten. If "karate" were to ever reach a concensus as to what its true intent is or must become, the best of the modernist's and traditionalist's views must be integrated.

I think that many would find that the modern version is valid in its "Do" (and its corresponding purpose) as the classical is in its "Jutsu", and its so-called "original intent". It's whatever you're looking for, or something like that.

Good post and responses.

hectokan
25th November 2003, 22:33
Funakoshi Gichin felt that this change was for the better.

I don't think he nessecarily thought is was for the better but Boy,if he did? was he ever right.The over populated saturation and over commercialization of karate has watered down the original art intentions and goal,no doubt about that.The upside of all of this is that whole world has gotten involved in how to improve all different aspects of the art,that was originally only practiced in a few very small villages.

The technical modernization of karate has improved 10 fold over the last 80 years.Many truths have been justified and many myths have been disspelled.This would seem to me like a small price to pay for great advancement,even if over saturation and mcdojo like commercializim invades our cities across the world.In the long run it's a small price to pay.The serious students progress and end up training with the schools that reaped the rewards and benifits of modernization.




Each brand of "karate" has its place. Like cars, not all MAs are created equal. Some are Yugos and others Rolls'. Which is which is all relative to your position in time-space

Yes,thank god we agree on something.Some cars are left behind as relics some just never had power steering,air bags,silent engines,much less would be willing to make a cross country trip to visit the inlaws for turkey day and all that goble,goble,goble.

RobertW
26th November 2003, 07:55
I dunno - Soul?