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A. Bakken
10th November 2003, 17:31
What is the difference between 'Budo' and 'Koryu'? Are these two concepts mutually exclusive? Part of my reason for asking, is that I practise Muso Shinden Ryu iai, which -- as I understand it -- is frequently considered to be both a Budo discipline and a Koryu sword art. My curiosity has also been spurred by reading the series Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan, edited by Diane Skoss, wherein I sense that Koryu is often considered quite a different beast than the more "mainstream" Iaido arts such as MSR.

I should also note that I'm looking for an informed discussion of this subject, rather than textbook definitions (as the most interesting concepts are often hard to define precisely).

Pete Knox
10th November 2003, 18:15
I'll take a stab at it...

Budo is a philosophical mindset cultivated by warriors. In addition to practicing techniques of martial skill, a budoka would strive to perfect him or herself as an individual, with the ultimate goal being to contribute more to society. While there have been warrior cultures that have had specific philosophies throughout the world (i.e. Native American warriors, Shaolin monks, and the Knights Templar), budo is specifically used to refer to the tradition as it developed in Japan.

Koryu is a term that defines an art or group of arts with a verifiable lineage to old Japan; i.e. battlefield proven warrior arts. Practitioners try as best as possible to preserve these traditions, and in many cases, there are a very precious few practitioners of each ryu, especially outside of Japan itself. The guidelines for what makes an art a koryu one are not always clear to those who are not already involved in the koryu, so there is often much controversy in the martial arts community as to whether or not specific arts are or are not to be considered koryu.

While the two aspects can and often do co-exist in an individual (i.e. one can study koryu and be a budoka), that is not necessarily true in all cases. There are many budoka who do not practice strict koryu arts, but instead are for example aikidoka, judoka, or karateka; there are also very likely some koryu practitioners who do not follow the philosophies of budo (albeit, one would think they probably wouldn't get too far in their ryu with that attitude).

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2003, 18:24
The most obvious thing that comes to mind (and I'm sure my seniors will correct me if I'm wrong), is that koryu are just that: old school, meaning that those were the old systems of martial skills, the purpose of which was combat during times of internecine violence, espionage and defense of home and fortress.

Budo, by contrast, is a construct of the Edo period and beyond, when the power structure of Japan shifted, and martial skills were modified to fit an urban setting and hierarchical social structure. Their purpose was to re-cultivate former warriors' martial energies into a ritualized process, and also to re-form them to be vehicles for more philosophical pursuits.

So, instead focusing on on- and off-battlefield combat jutsu, budoka started using modified forms of those skills for "inner development," and also adjusted the pragmatic combat skills into suit one-on-one dueling, replete with etiquette. Koryu, while it had its own unwritten rules, was all about combat and the skills needed to cover its many facets.

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 20:00
You guys think WAAAAY too much about this stuff. Koryu are BUDO. They are not mutually exclusive terms unless YOU decied to make them such. Budo quite simlpy refers to the "Way of War". The Japanese language is built/constructed/put together/assembled/ (get my point) in such a way that the meanings of many words can, and often do, have assorted/different/various/ conotations applicable to the same definition. In the case of DO in BUDO the character "michi" means road/path/way and by abstraction "method" much like WAY in the English language can refer to a road or path or method. What does it all mean you may ask? In a nut shell if I tell you I have a way to pick the good apples out of the barrel at the grocery story it does not (but it could if I so chose) mean I have a philoshy, with spiritual overtones, regarding the techniques/methods/way in which I choose the crispiest,juiciest, most delectibiliest apples from the barrel...it really means I have a WAY I choose apples.

Soulend
10th November 2003, 20:02
I must say that sometimes I find the line between Budo and Koryu Bujutsu rather nebulous, as several koryu seem to be as spiritually, philosophically, and morally grounded as any art founded after 1868, with heavy emphasis on improving the self as well as being combatively effective martial arts.

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 20:06
For those interested the above mentioned art is called "Ringo no Kimeru-jutsu" The guys on the East coast have, out of defference to me, decided to call the branch of the art they practice "Ringo no Kimeru-do" Although their methods differ slightly from mine I do not believe them to be any more spiritual than I in their practice and application of the art. Anybody interested in learning Ringo no Kimeru-jutsu can transfer $200 US into my paypal account and I will send you an email detailing in full the techniques I have inherited, mastered and refined for picking those good apples out of the barrel.

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2003, 20:07
Scott,
It's not that we think way too much about this stuff. It's that we don't have lives. :D

I don't agree that koryu is budo. The concept of "do" came after battlefield arts' "jutsu" -- meaning, in this case, science/technology of martial method, rather than the use of martial methods to serve as a vehicle for inner development.

"Do" means a "way" in respect to that inner stuff. Koryu arts were for killing enemies on battlefields, or torturing and maiming them for information. Ritualization of martial methods is a characteristic of "do," but not of "jutsu" (in the traditional definition).

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2003, 20:09
Originally posted by Soulend
I must say that sometimes I find the line between Budo and Koryu Bujutsu rather nebulous, as several koryu seem to be as spiritually, philosophically, and morally grounded as any art founded after 1868, with heavy emphasis on improving the self as well as being combatively effective martial arts.

1868? That's Meiji. I'm pretty sure (from reading all of those great books on Koryu.com) that "do" wended its way into the combat methods during the Edo period, beginning with the change from battlefield combat to duelin' samurai on city streets.

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 20:14
Cady if I may be so bold (and I am:) )to re-word what you stated.

I don't agree that koryu is budo...in the modern ,Westernised, post Dreager definition of the word BUDO . There...now we can agree :)

Brian Owens
10th November 2003, 20:35
It is my feeling that a koryu (old tradition) bugei (martial art) can be practiced today as a bujutsu (martial method) or a budo (martial Way), depending on the mindset/intent of the individual practitioner.

Whether one is a budoka or a bugeisha is, I think, more determined by current purpose than by historical application.

Similarly I see many practitioners of modern budo (karatedo and judo, especially) who only practice their arts as sports, and so their use of the term budo seems somewhat out of place to me.

This may not be the historically or technically/grammatically correct use of the terms koryu, bugei, budo and bujutsu, but it works for me. Some say that the term budo didn't have the philosophical connotations it now does until Donn Draeger gave it that connotation, but so what? I know what it means to me, and those I talk to seem to know what I mean, so it's all good.

Using my definitions then, any koryu could be budo, but not all budo can be koryu; it depends on when the art was codified. Conversely, just because an art isn't koryu it's not automatically budo.

There. Definitely not a textbook definition.

Brian Owens
10th November 2003, 20:54
P.S. While I was composing my above missive, Scott Sensei was posting his. When I said "Some say that the term budo didn't have the philosophical connotations it now does until Donn Draeger gave it that connotation..." I wasn't referring to his post. :)

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 21:17
Please...no "sensei"...just Scott. In my book you call people in public "Sensei" only if you are hoping to get them beat up...and I bruise real easy ;)

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2003, 21:35
Originally posted by Scott Irey
Cady if I may be so bold (and I am:) )to re-word what you stated.

I don't agree that koryu is budo...in the modern ,Westernised, post Dreager definition of the word BUDO . There...now we can agree :)

:laugh: :p

Well, we're close to agreeing now. The very strong shift of skills from no-rules battlefield combat to etiquette-ridden urban samurai practices of the Edo period, was, IMO, a transition into the beginnings of "do." As soon as rules of engagement came in, martial technical systems began their tranformation to becoming martial arts. Art as opposed to science/technology for strictly pragmatic use.

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 22:20
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
:laugh: :p

Well, we're close to agreeing now. The very strong shift of skills from no-rules battlefield combat to etiquette-ridden urban samurai practices of the Edo period, was, IMO, a transition into the beginnings of "do." As soon as rules of engagement came in, martial technical systems began their tranformation to becoming martial arts. Art as opposed to science/technology for strictly pragmatic use.

And in an effort to draw our opinions even closer together... I would add that western martial artists of the later 20th century, in their refusal to deal with "grey" terminology took it upon themselves to label arts that seemed to focus less on the pragmatic as DO arts and those that focused more on the pragmatic as JUTSU arts.

That being said there are plenty of koryu out there that label themselves as BUDO as well as plenty of JUTSU labled koryu that fit the modern definition of BUDO....go figure ;)

Diane Mirro
10th November 2003, 22:31
You've done it now, pardner... gone and snubbed us here in the great nation of Texas with our rare but delectable Davis Mountain Alpine Desert Apples and our obscure but highly respectable branch of "Chihuahua-Salsa-Yeeee-ha Ringo no Kimeru-jitsu" (NOT "jutsu") as developed by the venerable Judge Roy Bean in the lawless lands west of the Pecos.

Son, when a man wants killin'....

pgsmith
10th November 2003, 22:33
And in an effort to draw our opinions even closer together... I would add that western martial artists of the later 20th century, in their refusal to deal with "grey" terminology took it upon themselves to label arts that seemed to focus less on the pragmatic as DO arts and those that focused more on the pragmatic as JUTSU arts.
It drives me crazy when people want to pin Japanese words down to singular explanations. The language is so context driven that many of the words that we consider as having exclusive meanings are used interchangeably.

Perhaps that's why the honorable Mr. Draeger tried so hard to define these originally. Maybe he did not think that the typical western mind would be able to deal with the typical Japanese ambiguity? Come to think of it, he was probably correct. Witness the many threads that concern the differences in definition between two Japanese words! :)

Cheers,

Earl Hartman
10th November 2003, 22:33
Yagyu Sensei says that "jutsu to Do wa onagi mono desu" ("the technique and the Way are the same thing"). He also says that "waza wa kokoro desu" ("the technique is the spirit/mind/heart").

He also often refers to Yagyu Shinkage Ryu as kendo.

So there.

This supposed dualism between the "Way" (supposedly the "inner", that is the "important" stuff) and the "technique" (the supposedly unimportant and trivial outer trappings) is absolute and utter nonsense. It is a Western sickness brought about by an uninformed reading of all of the booshwah spouted by armchair theorists like DT Suzuki and Herrigel and their Western acolytes.

However, there is a very important difference between Old School and New School, and this has to do with what it means to use the martial arts as tools for the nebulous concept of "self-improvement".

What, precisely, does this mean? I submit that there will be just as many different definitions of this as there are people practicing budo.

So, without further ado, I offer my own personal stab at a definition:

To the extent one practices budo specifically as a method for some kind of inner growth not NECESSARILY organically connected to the specifics of technique or to whether the technique is actually practical or not, one is practicing what I will call New School. Modern kyudo is a good example of this. Modern kyudo technique, properly practiced, is quite servicable as a kind of target archery. However, modern kyudo has very consciously been refashioned as a vehicle for teaching what the founders of the All Japan Kyudo Federation felt to be important philiophical concepts vital to the formation of what they viewed as a proper Japanese post-war human being. This is stated very explicitly in the kyudo training manual, and they state very bluntly that while the outward practice of modern kyudo looks much like pre-war kyudo, the kokoro and the objectives of the practice are entirely different (However, this could just be tatemae, a sop the the Occupation authorities.) In this way, they, like their Meiji predecessors, viewed the martial arts as vehicles for instilling certain desirable traits in people. Anyway, one of the distinguishing characteristics of New School thinking, it seems to me, is the conscious use of the budo as tools to achieve a goal that is not organically connected to the function of the weapons as weapons.

To the extent that one practices budo specifically as a practical technique and views inner improvement as vital to achieving skill and proficiency in that art then one is practicing with what I would call an Old School mindset. For example, one often hears how in the martial arts one must be "without ego". A New Schooler will view this as an independent goal, desirable in and of itself, and will view his art as a way to achieve that goal. An Old Schooler will see, rather, that it is this egoless quality that allows him to become proficient in his art and that for that reason it is desirable. That is to say, self-improvement is a natural result of improvement in one's art, not something artificially grafted on later for an extraneous purpose. So, for an Old Schooler, "self-improvement" is always primarily a practical consideration.

Above all, an Old Schooler will NEVER belittle technique and the aquisition of practical skill, subordinating it to some disembodied and lofty goal of "self-improvement". The jutsu and the Do, the waza and the kokoro are all the same thing. Thus, one finds the Way through the acquisition of technique until one reaches the point where there is no difference between them.

Of course, there is always overlap and blurred boundaries. That is why this diuscussion will never end, and why, in another few months, some new poster, who hasn't read the old threads, will start a thread asking about the difference between Old School and New School.

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 22:35
Well since you all in the Texas region seem to injest mezcal beans before you choose your apples I definitely put you in the "DOH!" crowd. Hallucinagens and jutsu don't mix....

"If'n a man needs kill'n...then I reckon a man needs kill'n...yup"

Scott Irey
10th November 2003, 22:53
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earl Hartman
[B]Yagyu Sensei says that "jutsu to Do wa onagi mono desu" ("the technique and the Way are the same thing"). He also says that "waza wa kokoro desu" ("the technique is the spirit/mind/heart").

Had to read this twice...I thought you wrote jutsu to Do wa UNAGI mono desu apparently the cold medication is a bit stronger than I hoped for :)

That being said, excellent points Earl. People...please read what Earl says here. I can not count the number of times I have heard other Japanese teachers of Koryu say pretty much exactly what Earl has posted above.

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2003, 23:32
Originally posted by Scott Irey
And in an effort to draw our opinions even closer together... I would add that western martial artists of the later 20th century, in their refusal to deal with "grey" terminology took it upon themselves to label arts that seemed to focus less on the pragmatic as DO arts and those that focused more on the pragmatic as JUTSU arts.

That being said there are plenty of koryu out there that label themselves as BUDO as well as plenty of JUTSU labled koryu that fit the modern definition of BUDO....go figure ;)

A-yep. But, I doubt that centuries ago, koryu-ka thought of their clan systems as a "Way." It was more their secret Orville Redenbacker recipe for beating their enemies. Gray areas being what they are, though, I don't doubt that many practitioners, after many years of training, found the routine and austerity to compliment their lives.

BTW, from what I've read, heard from old timers, and seen from demo tapes, I agree with the comment that "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu IS kendo." But, we may have a bit of debate as to what "kendo" means. ;)

My understanding is that it was torn asunder by the times, and eventually re-constituted itself from later-existing kendo systems to fill in missing bits. Is that correct?

Earl Hartman
10th November 2003, 23:47
Are you talking about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu or kendo, Cady? If you are talking about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, you are, AFAIK, entirely mistaken, although I will leave the final word to Meik should he care to say aything. Anyway, where did you get that idea? Someone's given you a major bum steer. Yagyu Shinkage Ryu has been passed down in the Yagyu family in an unbroken line from Yagyu Sekishusai to the present headmaster, Yagyu Nobuharu.

Also, BTW, regarding the use of the term "Way" (Do or Michi) AFAIK the warrior class in Japan from a fairly early period referred to themselves as Kyu-Ba no Ie "the House of the Horse and the Bow", and referred to their way of life as Kyu-Ba no Michi, or "The Way of the Horse and the Bow". I think it is only very much later that the term "Way" became associated with all of this pseudo-"spiritual" mumbo-jumbo and people decided that such a lofty concept could not have been understood by, you know, common soldiers. In it's most down-to-earth sense, it just means a way of doing things or a path to follow in life. This could be anything.

hyaku
10th November 2003, 23:51
To confuse things even further where does "Kobudo" lie?

Does not this word perhaps encompass both? It is the word that Japanese are perhaps more famiiar with. For example, if a Japanese asked me what I did, I would say Kobudo not Koryu.

I would prefer that Ko was used to describe Classical rather than just old. We teach Koten at work which is described as Classical Japanese.

The word Koryu seems to strike favour in the West. Could it be because Meik and Diane's site is so popular? After all it is a site that mainly distinguishes and classifies specific schools within the system.

Earl's description of what Yagyu Sensei says is basicaly the same as Imai Soke.

He quotes Musashi in saying Chokudo rather than Do. To take a straight path in life. And "To learn the sword we must first learn the heart"

Hyakutake Colin

Earl Hartman
11th November 2003, 00:01
Hyaku is correct. It is such an obvious thing that I had completely forgotten about it. In Japan, if you say just "budo", most people will automatically assume that you are talking about the budo with which they are familiar, such as kendo and judo, and which, if they are old enough, they were forced to practice in school as part of the PE curriculum.

If you say "Kobudo", they will know you are talking about that old weird stuff that nobody really practices any more. A lot of them will be surprised that it still exists. And if you practice it, they will think you are really weird, not just plain weird, like the Westerners who practice the regular stuff like kendo.

Meik Skoss
11th November 2003, 01:00
What Scott, Earl, and Colin said. This talk about "jutsu" or "do" is just hashing the same old, er... "stuff" over and over again. We all do budo, regardless of the name of the art. There are differences, to be sure, between the classical (pre-1876 in my reckoning, before the Sword Abolishment Act, when Japan was at least putatively a "martial" society) and modern systems (which generall, though not always, use the term "do" in their names). But, to quote Tom D. Hall, a very wise man and a pretty canny observer of human society, "it's the same old thing, only different."

It's ALL kendo and judo, notwithstanding the "lineage" of classical school A or B. None of us are, and never will be, "warriors." This is true even if somebody on e-Budo belongs to some hoo-ya SpecWar sort of unit in the military or law enforcement. They are soldiers, cops. Warriors is a whole 'nuther thing.

What we do may be a matter of cultural preservation, physical and mental cultivation (I hesitate to talk about "perfection"), a social activity and chance to get out of the house and play with cool toys, or some mixture of all the above and more.

Yes, we may or may not be doing a more or less legitimate martial art that was, way back when men were men and tough men wore skirts, one of the arts used by Japanese warriors to prepare for battle. But that was then and this is now. But, no matter how nifty people may think it is, what we do is NOT a recreation of "times that never were but shoulda been."

This minute dissection and differentiation that's being discussed is a really foreign thing for Japanese; they simply don't look at koryu and gendai ANYthing as all that different. Draeger was attempting to explain the classical martial arts to an audience almost completely ignorant about Japanese martial culture in general and the classical arts in particular. Although the distinctions and definitions he used are helpful in some respects, they also distort the reality. One does what one does. It's just training for the sake of training. Let it go at that.

The term koryu, as opposed to kobudo, koryu budo (or bujutsu) is not particularly special. Or more accurate. We use it simply because we needed to use a term that would convey the sense of classical arts, but not get locked into bujutsu-this and kobudo-that. Too, "kobudo" is often used to refer to the Okinawan weapons associated with the art of karatedo. In fact, one probably ought to distinguish between Japanese and Okinawan (or Ryukyuan, if you prefer) kobudo. Again, it ain't that big a deal.

Sheesh!

Cady Goldfield
11th November 2003, 01:09
Hm. Thanks, for the input, Earl. Maybe I'm getting my Yagyus mixed... But with age comes unsound mind and fleeting short-term memory. I do recall hearing/reading about such a thing. And, after watching kendo matches and seeing some somewhat similar movements -- especially some of the arm positioning in cuts -- that were reminiscent of kendo. It was intriguing, and that's why I asked about it here.

I agree with you, and with Scott, that the current interpretation of "do" came with the fuzzy-wuzzy aiki-bunnies (apologies to Meik Skoss) in the 20th century, and has largely corrupted the whole concept of what "do" meant to earlier generations. The ideas of "jutsu" and "do" have long overlapped with a large gray area of interpretation. I recall Diane Skoss having similar musings on another Internet forum, some years ago.


Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Are you talking about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu or kendo, Cady? If you are talking about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, you are, AFAIK, entirely mistaken, although I will leave the final word to Meik should he care to say aything. Anyway, where did you get that idea? Someone's given you a major bum steer. Yagyu Shinkage Ryu has been passed down in the Yagyu family in an unbroken line from Yagyu Sekishusai to the present headmaster, Yagyu Nobuharu.

Also, BTW, regarding the use of the term "Way" (Do or Michi) AFAIK the warrior class in Japan from a fairly early period referred to themselves as Kyu-Ba no Ie "the House of the Horse and the Bow", and referred to their way of life as Kyu-Ba no Michi, or "The Way of the Horse and the Bow". I think it is only very much later that the term "Way" became associated with all of this pseudo-"spiritual" mumbo-jumbo and people decided that such a lofty concept could not have been understood by, you know, common soldiers. In it's most down-to-earth sense, it just means a way of doing things or a path to follow in life. This could be anything.

Cady Goldfield
11th November 2003, 01:11
Originally posted by Meik Skoss
Sheesh!

Oh, well, that sums it up, then. :laugh:

Hey, what's wrong with a little academic discussion and beating of dead horses?! Some of us don't have lives, you know.

Soulend
11th November 2003, 01:12
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
1868? That's Meiji. I'm pretty sure (from reading all of those great books on Koryu.com) that "do" wended its way into the combat methods during the Edo period, beginning with the change from battlefield combat to duelin' samurai on city streets.

I'm well aware that 1868 is the date of the Meiji Restoration. As I understand it, this date is used by some to differentiate koryu from gendai budo. Hell, some even use 1876, the date of Haitorei. Regardless, a martial system founded during the Edo period is still considered koryu.

Earl Hartman
11th November 2003, 01:26
Cady:

There are some apparent similarities between certain aspects of some sets of the YSR techniques and modern kendo. However, these apparent similarities are extremely superficial, and they disappear entirely once you learn even the smallest bit about how the techniques work. Body positioning and cutting mechanics in YSR are COMPLETELY different from modern kendo, at least in my limited experience with YSR so far. Anyway, don't get hung up on the fact that YSR uses a kind of shinai and sometimes uses a fairly erect stance. Don't mean nuthin'.

If you want to see classical swordsmanship that looks a lot like modern kendo, check out some of the Itto Ryu stuff. The Mizoguchi-ha Itto Ryu stuff springs instantly to mind. I saw a demo at the Budokan. The guys demonstrating were VERY good, but it really looked like kendo to me.

Or, should I say, modern kendo looks a lot like Mizoguchi-ha Itto Ryu.

Cady Goldfield
11th November 2003, 01:39
I've seen an Ono-ha Itto-ryu tape, and recall that there are things there that kendo does seem to mirror. But, to my eyes, there is much more going on in the Itto-ryu movements. Just subtle. Have not seen Mizoguchi-ha, but I suspect the same of that.

I recognize that modern kendo doesn't have much, if anything, below the surface, unlike kenjutsu systems.

Thanks for the food for thought.

Earl Hartman
11th November 2003, 01:41
Oh, I disagree. I think modern kendo is very deep indeed.

It is just limited, that's all.

Diane Mirro
11th November 2003, 02:23
Originally posted by Scott Irey
Well since you all in the Texas region seem to ingest mezcal beans before you choose your apples I definitely put you in the "DOH!" crowd. Hallucinagens and jutsu don't mix....

Yeah, but hallucinogens sure help when trying to follow a thread such as this one...

Lest you try to chomp those pretty red beans, beware:

"MESCAL BEANS

Don't let the name of this potential killer fool, you. The mescal bean is not mescaline, nor is it the alcoholic beverage mescal. Rather than make you high, it can put you 6 feet under.

These dark-red beans come from the Sophora secundiflora shrub, or Texas mountain laurel, which grows wild on the limestone hills of northern Mexico and in the southwestern United States. Once used for ritual purposes by Indians, mescal beans have since been replaced by peyote. Nowadays, even the Indians won't touch this drug with a 10-foot peace pipe.

The kicker in mescal beans is a toxic pyridine called cytisine, a pharmacological cousin of the deadly poison nicotine:

A ritual dose used to be a quarter of a bean or less, first roasted, then crushed, chewed, and swallowed. The drug is so toxic, however, that even a fraction of a bean too; much can throw the user into convulsions and cause death from respiratory failure.

This is one hallucinogen that is just not worth the chance. Even if it doesn't kill you, the trip won't be much fun-unless your idea of fun includes unpleasant effects such as a disturbing level of excitement, nausea, vomiting, a heavy drunk feeling, damaging heart palpitations, and unconsciousness. Effects can last up to three days following ingestion, during which the user may experience long periods of deep sleep.

Do yourself a favor. Unless you're looking to take a trip to the happy hunting ground, keep away from this psychedelic."

'Course, we have a rough sense of humor here in Texas so we delight in telling the tourists that the darn things are practically harmless...helps keep Texas high, wide and lonesome...


Sincerely,
Diane Mirro

Just another one of those "few mescal beans short of a deep sleep" MJER gals

Cady Goldfield
11th November 2003, 03:21
Oh, I disagree. I think modern kendo is very deep indeed.
It is just limited, that's all.

__________________
Earl Hartman



I stand corrected in terminology. Kendo is limited in its number of techniques, strategies and tactics, but within each existing one, there is room for almost infinite depth of nuance and skill. I found the same to be true in karate, also an art of limited principles, techniques and tactics.

pgsmith
11th November 2003, 05:12
However, in keeping with the original topic of the thread (somewhat?), kendo translates to "way of the sword". I would definitely say that YSR would qualify for that definition. Therefore, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is actually kendo. ;)

Cheers,

Brian Owens
11th November 2003, 05:42
Originally posted by pgsmith
However, in keeping with the original topic of the thread (somewhat?), kendo translates to "way of the sword". I would definitely say that YSR would qualify for that definition. Therefore, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is actually kendo.
I have sometimes heard koryu exponents refer to modern kendo as "shinai kendo" as opposed to "real" kendo.

I also heard another term, but I don't remember it exactly...shinai kyogai or something (I don't speak Japanese). The implication was that this speaker definitely didn't consider modern kendo to be "the Way of the sword."

Scott Irey
11th November 2003, 07:37
Originally posted by Diane Mirro

Don't let the name of this potential killer fool, you. The mescal bean is not mescaline, nor is it the alcoholic beverage mescal. Rather than make you high, it can put you 6 feet under.



That is exactly why you "Ringo no kimeru JITSU" guys are so few and far between. Keep it up and you will just be another dead "D'OH-ryu" :)

Earl Hartman
11th November 2003, 07:55
Shinai kyougi ("shinai competition") is the term you're looking for. After WWII, kendo was called "shinai kyougi" in order to pacify GHQ, IIRC.

Diane Mirro
11th November 2003, 15:07
Originally posted by Scott Irey
That is exactly why you "Ringo no kimeru JITSU" guys are so few and far between. Keep it up and you will just be another dead "D'OH-ryu" :)

ROFLOL

Please...no more...I yield...and as a token of my good will and appreciation, I'd like to offer you a gift of "Lacsem", a rare, red powder used only by the bravest of the brave, known to increase energy and enhance dreams...

Or maybe I'll just add it to your salsa...(evil grin)

ulvulv
11th November 2003, 15:27
'Budo' vs. 'Koryu'

What is the difference between 'Budo' and 'Koryu'? Are these two concepts mutually exclusive?


Has your inquiring mind been properly satisfied in this thread, miztah bakken, or did you fall asleep from the mescal bean ?

A. Bakken
11th November 2003, 17:10
Originally posted by ulvulv
Has your inquiring mind been properly satisfied in this thread, miztah bakken, or did you fall asleep from the mescal bean ?

Bonjour ulvulv,

Frankly, I'm rather disappointed. Half of the replies are either off-topic, flippant or both. I thought there was a "Sake lounge" or "Family Pub" section for those?

Mr. Smith wrote, "It drives me crazy when people want to pin Japanese words down to singular explanations."

Well, if you read my first post, you will find that I asked for a discussion, and expressly not what you call "singular explanations".

Furthermore, you said: "The language is so context driven that many of the words that we consider as having exclusive meanings are used interchangeably."

What exactly are you referring to here -- isn't the meaning of virtually all concepts depending on the context?

And honestly, this wasn't supposed to be another jutsu vs. do debate... :(

Scott Irey
11th November 2003, 19:18
Originally posted by A. Bakken
Bonjour ulvulv,

Well, if you read my first post, you will find that I asked for a discussion, and expressly not what you call "singular explanations".........And honestly, this wasn't supposed to be another jutsu vs. do debate... :(

Mr Bakken,

The problem starts with your question. First off, as has been explained, by more than one of us who not only spent time in Japan learning our respective arts but also the language, that Koryu are "Budo". You or anybody else can ask a native speaker of the language who is a practitioner of a Koryu and they will gladly tell you that they practice BUDO. Secondly, you confuse the issue when you ask are the two concepts (KORYU & BUDO) mutually exclusive. Koryu is not a concept, it is a label given to various martial arts that were created in pre-Meiji times. Budo can, and I mean CAN, be seen as a concept but generally is not by the Japanese. Just because a large number of folks in the West have decided to turn Budo into a concept does not a concept make it.

The reason your thread turned into a DO vs JUTSU discussion is because of the perception that Koryu are "JUTSU" based upon the modern Western made debate of DO vs JUTSU.

Perhaps a better question to have asked is are KORYU and KORy(U)OGRAPHY mutually exclusive terms or can a KORYU be nothing more than KORY(U)OGRAPHY and still be called a KORYU?

Now to get down to the nitty gritty of your original post. What you are really asking comes at the end of your first paragraph where you state the following:

....I sense that Koryu is often considered quite a different beast than the more "mainstream" Iaido arts such as MSR

What you really seem to be asking is: Are mainstream Iaido arts still really KORYU or are they something different?

My answer to that question is yes, mainstream koryu-iai is still koryu iai...eventhough...a healthy number of practitioners are doing nothing more than Kory(u)ography.

And as to the flipant comments/remarks/etc. Some of us just can't help ourselves :)

pgsmith
11th November 2003, 19:39
Well, if you read my first post, you will find that I asked for a discussion, and expressly not what you call "singular explanations".

Furthermore, you said: "The language is so context driven that many of the words that we consider as having exclusive meanings are used interchangeably."

What exactly are you referring to here -- isn't the meaning of virtually all concepts depending on the context?
Too bad you feel disappointed with the answers you received Mr. Bakken. Perhaps you need to post better questions? You did ask for discussion, but you asked for it based on your erroneous definition of Japanese terms. Several people pointed out to you that your definition was in error but you were disappointed by that.

No, the meaning of virually all concepts does not depend upon context in the English language. If I say the words "spiritually enhancing endeavour" you are not likely to get that confused with the words "a way to hack people into pieces". Those are both valid uses of the word budo. Japanese is extremely context driven. If you wish to truly understand Japanese terms, perhaps you should study the language? Alternatively, you could just train harder and not worry so much. :)

Cheers,

A. Bakken
11th November 2003, 20:11
I'll grant both of the last two posters that my question could have been better put. However, there is no need to put words into my mouth. [Scott Irey: "What you really seem to be asking is..."; PGSmith: "Several people pointed out to you that your definition was in error but you were disappointed by that. "]

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll drop my dubious online-chat skills in favour of wielding my Chop-Suey-Jin-Ken (that one was for Scott Irey). ;)

Scott Irey
11th November 2003, 21:58
Originally posted by A. Bakken


Now if you'll excuse me, I'll drop my dubious online-chat skills in favour of wielding my Chop-Suey-Jin-Ken (that one was for Scott Irey). ;)

Excuse me...waiter...I do so hate to bother you, but there seems to be a toe in my chop-suey....do have the chef take a look at it will you :)