Colonel Roy Jerry Hobbs

[Bruce Mitchell]

I was looking for info on shinno shinden ryu and ryoi shinto ryu and came across this on the Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei site. Does anyone know if any of these ranks/titles are authenticated? I am particularly curious about the Toyama Ryu Kyoshi claim. Any info would be appreciated.


The Kaicho (Director) and Doshu (Founder) of the Kokusai Dentokan Bugei Renmei (International Dentokan Martial Arts Federation) is Colonel Roy Jerry Hobbs, who is one of the world's finest exponents of martial arts. In addition to his Menkyo Kaiden ranking in Kokodo Ju Jutsu (a Hakko Ryu derivative) he is also Judan and Hanshi in Shorin Ryu Karate and Kobudo (Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Seidokan Kyokai) a traditional Okinawan style. To these achievements must be added Hachidan and Hanshi in Gojo-Ryu Karate-Do and Kyoshi of Toyama Ryu Iai-Jutsu. He also holds Dan grades in Judo and Aikido, and has practiced Chinese martial arts.

[47th ronin]

You could always ask him yourself, he does post on this board.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thank you for the reply Mr. Anderson,
I understand that posting a question of this type in baffling budo can be contentious and inflammatory. Please believe that this is not my intent.

Col. Hobbs achievements, holding teaching licenses in four different martial systems, and holding Dan ranking in two others are impressive to say the least, particularly for someone who maintained an active career.

I have an active interest in JSA and one doesn't see alot of Toyama Ryu around, hence my interest in that particular certification.

I do hope to see a reply from Col. Hobbs, I have heard good things said about him, and am understandably curious about someone who has accomplished so much.

[Shimura]

It was my belief that Guy Power and Bob Elder were the highest ranked Toyama Ryu practitioners here in the States. I don't know about his other titles, but his Toyama claim sounds suspect. I'm sure either Guy or Bob could verify or disclaim this Col. claims.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hi Gary,

It was my belief that Guy Power and Bob Elder were the highest ranked Toyama Ryu practitioners here in the States.

That is my understanding as well. However, I believe that Col. Hobbs is in the UK, so I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also see no harm in asking about his rank. There are many budo organizations out there, and Col. Hobbs only list organizational names for the first two arts that he holds certification in.

Anyone who has achieved really high ranks has generally had contact with even higher ranked teachers, and I think that it is natural to be curious as to who these teachers were.

[Shimura]

I definitley agree. I guess I didn't realize he resided in England, probably lost that somewhere in reading the other posts. Your right there are many various budo organizations that are legitimate, or teach legitimate budo, yet are little known. Not saying that they're doing this on purpose with some "secret super ninja" agenda. They just don't recieve the limelight and notoriety some of the larger and better advertised organizations recieve. If Col. Hobbs is a great budoka I wonder who his teachers and experiences were, just for the sake of curiosity.

[Katsujinken]

'If Col. Hobbs is a great budoka I wonder who his teachers and experiences were, just for the sake of curiosity'.

I can possibly shed some light on this if anybody is still interested:
Colonel R J Hobbs was in England in the 1980's when stationed at USAF Bentwaters, Woodbridge, Suffolk, having then recently returned from being posted in Okinawa and Japan for a number of years.
My understanding is that apart from a recent UK visit to Ireland Colonel R.J. Hobbs is based in Illnois, USA. Though he was fairly recently in Okinawa.
His organisation has established branches in Suffolk, north Essex, London and Ireland in the UK.

My understanding is that Colonel R J Hobbs had trained with Sensei Seiki Toma in Okinawa as part of a Shuri and Tomari Te lineage which also includes Sensei Shian Toma, the leading UK figure for this lineage is now Stephen Chan, currently Dean for Social Sciences and Law at SOAS, University of London.This lienage called Seidokan appears to have a very strong Goju influence though probably due to the links with Shian Toma.

Colonel R J Hobbs also trained under Sensei Ryuho Okuyama Founder of Hakko Ryu whilst stationed in Japan.
It was Sensei Irie Yasuhiro who was a Senior in Hakko Ryu at Okuyama's hombu dojo and with whom Colonel R J Hobbs trained who later broke away when Ryuho Okuyama's son inherited the lineage and this resulted in the formation of Kokodo Ryu. Irie Sensei awarded Jerry Hobbs with a Menkyo Kaiden.

Colonel R J Hobbs has also trained with and had very early associations with Albert C Church and the version of Church's style he teaches is called Ko Kamishin Ryu, to distinguish it from the Kamishin Ryu.
He also trained in Goju ryu under Takahiro Shinjo and Boulahfa Mimoun Abdel-Lah.
As for the Toyama Ryu lineage I cannot comment, but he certainly did do some Iaido whilst stationed in Japan.

Regards


Chris Norman

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Chris,
I think many people would envy Col. Hobbs opportunities to train with such outstanding teachers,

[ghp]

in July 2002 I corresponded with Col. Hobbs, asking him about his Toyama Ryu connection. Here is his response; sorry for the loooong pause, but I couldn't find it until now:
...Anyhow, regarding Toyama-Ryu: I was fortunate enough to have studied it while stationed in Panama in the mid-90s. My principal teacher was Stavros Costarangos, a student of Fumio Demura. I also trained with Demura Sensei whenever he visited Panama. ... Demura sensei studied kendo under Nakamura sensei in grade school -- he dropped in on Nakamura sensei one day while I was visiting; what a surprise!

Regards,
Guy

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thank you Powers Sensei,
I went to Mr. Hobbs' Website http://www.dentokanhombu.com/sensei.htm
and checked out the photo's. The authorizing signatures on his certificates are by the same guy who signed the menjos for Rod Sacharnoski. That's all I need to know.

:rolleyes:

[ghp]

I can't seem to open that link. [edited] Okay, now I opened it. Still looking for the menjo.

[edited again] ... okay, okay!!! scroll down to the bottom of the page, Power .... sheesh! :)

Thanks,
--Guy

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hi Powers Sensei,
This link might be work better.http://www.dentokanhombu.com/sensei.htm

It looks like all his menjo are written both in Japanese and English. How convenient;)

[ghp]

Three of Col. Hobbs' Japanese menjo are very nice. Of the seven displayed only two were entirely done in English using computer/type font.

1. Rank: (Japanese) Karatedo Hanshi 10th dan
Organization: Okinawa Seidokan Karatedo Kyokai
Date: Heisei 11, 6 May
Imprimatur: Toma [Seitaka]??
Guy's Comments:
a. Toma sensei's given name here differs from the usual "Shian" -- unless this is his "legal" name. Perhaps his son's name?
b. Col. Hobbs mistakenly says this is "karate and kobudo" -- there is no mention of kobudo on the menjo.
=======
2. Rank: Hanshi 10th dan, Karate
Organization: Dai Nippon Seibukan Budo Bugei Kai
Date:
Imprimatur: I can't read signature or kanji
Guy's Comments:
a. Kanji for seibu means "Western Section"
b. Japanese text lists the kaicho as 9th dan.
=======
3. Guy's Comments: no explanation required -- all English
=======
4. Rank: Menkyo Kaiden, Kokodo Jujutsu
Organization: Kokodo Renmei
Date: Heisei 10 [could be 11 or 13, but can only make out "ju"]
Imprimatur: Irie Sensei
Guy's Comments:
a. A very nice document.
b. Co-authorized by Michael Lamonica, Hakkodenshin Ryu Jujutsu.
c. Kanji "KoKo" means Star Light
========
5. Rank: 9th dan
Organization: All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Federation
Date: 9 Aug 2000
Imprimatur: Toma Shian
Guy's Comments:
a. Co-authorized by Yamanouchi Satoshi & Tamae Shigemitsu.
b. Awarded on same day as #6, below.
=========
6. Rank: 9th dan
Organization: All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Federation
Date: 9 Aug 2000
Imprimatur: Toma Shian
Guy's Comments:
a. Co-authorized by Takeshi Yoshitada
b. Although the English title states "Grappling," no such indication is given in Japanese. This is essentially the same menjo (with less verbiage) as #5, above -- except for the photo on the cert. Perhaps the other teacher mentioned is a jujutsu teacher [??] -- and people in the organization already know that
=========
7. Rank: Shihan
Organization: Hakkoryu Jujutsu
Date: Showa 58, 14 June
Imprimatur: Ryuho Okuyama (shodai soke)
Guy's Comments: Nice cert -- typical Okuyama s. calligraphy

[ghp]

Showa 58 = 1983
Heisei 10 = 1998

Here's a nice translator: http://www.artelino.com/articles/japanese_calendar.asp

--guy

[Bruce Mitchell]

The authorizing signatures on his certificates are by the same guy who signed the menjos for Rod Sacharnoski.

Quote from my own post. I went to Toma Sensei's web site and saw that it has a disclaimer at the bottom that says that his organization has no connection with Rod Sacharnoski. My apologies for this error.

[Katsujinken]

1. Rank: (Japanese) Karatedo Hanshi 10th dan
Organization: Okinawa Seidokan Karatedo Kyokai
Date: Heisei 11, 6 May
Imprimatur: Toma [Seitaka]??

Guy's Comments:
a. Toma sensei's given name here differs from the usual "Shian" -- unless this is his "legal" name. Perhaps his son's name?
b. Col. Hobbs mistakenly says this is "karate and kobudo" -- there is no mention of kobudo on the menjo.

Hope this is informative

In relation to Guys comment a
Shian Toma and Seitoku/Seitaka, probably Seiki Toma are apparently not the same person and are unrelated (So the story goes).
Seiki Toma trained alongside Higa under Seikichi Uehara who inherited the Motobu udunti lineage that Uehara himself inherited from Choyu Motobu (This is a family lienage and an Okinawan Koryu). All 3, Uehara, Seitoku Higa and Seiki Toma are now very old.
Colonel R J Hobbs trained with Seiki Toma.

Shian Toma did train at Uehara's Dojo the Seidokan for a while, Mark Bishop was apparently training under Uehara at the same time alongside Shian Toma. Shian Toma just so happens to call his organisation The All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Federation.

The confusion arises because Seiki Toma's Dojo is also called the Seidokan and this is similiar in name used by both Shian Toma's organisation and what Sacharnoski claims links to.

In relation to comment b
Col. Hobbs mistakenly says this is "karate and kobudo" -- there is no mention of kobudo on the menjo.

The Seidokan Karatedo Kyokai emerges out of the following group of dojo's:

The main dojo for Motobu Undun Te is located at Ojana (Uehara's Dojo) other branches located in Shuri are Bugeikan (Higa's), another is the Seidokan (Seitoku Toma's Dojo at Goya Rd, I understand it was destroyed in a storm a while ago) and there is another called the Shodokan at Tetokon village. These dojo's all practise Okinawan Kobudo,Karate and Motobu Undun Te.

Uehara's old organization the Motobu Ryu Kobu-Jutsu Association became an affiliate branch of an organization set up by his student Seitoku Higa which was called the All Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Association. I suspect that the Okinawa Seidokan Karatedo Kyokai is Seiki Toma's branch of that same organisation.

The All Okinawa Seidokan Karate Kobudo Federation is a different organization of which the lead figure is Shian Toma.

Regards

Chris Norman

[ghp]

Chris,

Thanks for expanding further. It is a dodgy thing -- translating certificates. Sometimes important data are not stated on the menjo, but the dojo members all know it is included in the syllabus and actively taught. For this reason, I usually comment solely on the content of the document, and try (*try*) not to comment on the skills of the owner.

By the way, if you could draw an organization chart, that spaghetti-description of yours will be a bit clearer :D

Again, thank you for your valuable input.

Mister Moderator -- where do we move this thread? It clearly is not baffling budo.

Regards,
Guy

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
Quote from my own post. I went to Toma Sensei's web site and saw that it has a disclaimer at the bottom that says that his organization has no connection with Rod Sacharnoski. My apologies for this error.

That didn't stop Rod from using his name, however, and I doubt it ever will. I wonder how long that has been up? I don't recall ever seeing it.
****

Power-san (Okay, Power-dono, but don't get cocky),

Where do you think it belongs? This isn't my forum, but I thought I'd ask since you've been around here longer than I have (and that's a long time) and certainly longer than the this forum's moderator, Steverino.

"Media and the Arts? It is a medium.

Budo no kokoro? Nah, I don't think so.

What about Language? Does that "grapple" you.?":D

History and Tradition?

Sorry, I'm in a cynical mood today, but Steve should be looking in soon, or John.:o

[Katsujinken]

'By the way, if you could draw an organization chart, that spaghetti-description of yours will be a bit clearer'

It always struck me as a bit of a spaghetti arrangement, or at least it has become that way. Its way too casual, formal in some places and not others and overly complicated to try and draw a chart, that could ever be accurate.

There are two variables involved here one which is a family lineage (an Okinawan Ko Ryu) and another how those who have inherited some of this lineage have formalised it through their own Dojo organisations which go under umbrella organisations. So I will try and make it a little clearer here as there are a number of subtleties involved:

Motobu Udun family system was originally taught to the Okinawa Royal Court at Shuri castle.

Uehara inherited the Motobu Family system from Choyu Motobu who was Uehara's only teacher.

Choyu Motobu had started the Okinawa Tode Research Club around 1924, in the club were: Choyu's brother Choki Motobu, who did not inherit the family Te system (it was always passed to the oldest son)others who were members of this club included Chojun Miyagi (Founder of Goju Ryu) Kenwa Mabuni and Chotku Kyan, this represented the native Te lineages of three villages.

In 1926 Choyu Motobu died and the club was disbanded
Choyu Motobu's own son had previously moved to Wakayama in the mainland and never had an interest in learning the family system. Hence why it went to Uehara.

In 1947 Uehara named the Te he had inherited from Choyu Motobu as Motobu Ryu out of respect to his teacher and the family lineage. So that the system would not die out Uehara held a demonstration of Te in 1964 at Kumamoto, Seiki Toma I believe was an assistant to Uehara at this demo.

In 1969 Uehara established the Motobu Ryu Kobu-Jutsu Association,
this was part of Higa's organization the All Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Association.

Higa did not began training seriously with Uehara until 1961, this was on a one to one basis and in that same year had just established the Okinawa Kobudo Association. This later grew in 1967 in to the All Okinawa Karate and Kobudo Association, under which fell various styles of Te, Karate and Kobudo with Higa becoming the centre piece of the organization.

Higa was already established in both Karate and Shuri Te and had through a period on the mainland Japan been awarded a 7th Dan by the JKA so he was useful to Uehara.

Uehara called his own Dojo the Seidokan, it had branch Dojo's of the same name that had links to Uehara and the Motobu Family Te system (One of the earliest was Seiki Toma's branch and this was also called Seidokan). Although there was some type of formality with organisations, this was all a very casual affair between Uehara and Seiki Toma, but Higa as Ueharas student tried to make it more formal, which was necessary.

Higa had an organization that was accepted in the Karate fraternity and on the mainland. Uehara became part of this organization and his Dojo was called Seidokan, Seiki Toma established a branch Dojo which was also called Seidokan, which taught Karate alongside the Motobu Undun Ryu Te, in all probability this was done to appease the Karate fraternity on the island.

The Motobu Family Te system was an Okinawan Koryu, but if Uehara did not give it some publicity it would die out. Higa's organisations became a vehicle for this, others copied.

Higa and his branch Dojo which included the Motobu Undun Te also practised Karate and another Te and had combined various fighting methods that he had studied from other elderly masters on Okinawa. to reflect this Higa called his Dojo the Bugeikan in 1968, but it was still affiliated to Uehara's Seidokan in terms of lineage. But Uehara's Dojo was in Higa's organisation.

Shian Toma's group is his own but pays tribute to one of his teachers Uehara under whom he trained at the Seidokan, hence the similiarity in the name. My understanding is that Shian Toma was given no position of prestige of any sort by Uehara as such. Shian Toma, a former student of Uehara, is grandmaster of his own style and not the Motobu Ryu Undun Te family system, current headmaster of that system is Seikichi Uehara, who though has inherited the lineage does not have the bloodline. So his sole concern was in preserving the Motobu family system.

I can assure you from personal experience that the underlying essence of what Seiki Higa taught Colonel R J Hobb's and what Seikichi Uehara and Seitoku Higa taught Mark Bishop are pretty much the same thing.

Some aspects of what Shian Toma does are not dissimiliar except in that it is more Omote in style, some of the subtleties of the Motobu Undun system are missing and there is a much stronger Karate and Kobudo empahasis with low Goju like footwork and a strong emphasis on what appears to be Choku Motobu's Kempo. This emerges partially out of the arrangements set up by Higa that appeased the karate fraternity and Shian Toma's own strong karate background.

As for the organisation associations of Shian Toma these are different from what was in essence a casual arrangement between Uehara, Higa and Seiki Toma.

Higa made this casual arrangement look more formal, through creating umbrella organisations that linked to branch Dojo's which had their own associations coming under this umbrella.

Shian Toma has carried on the type of formality.

An organizational chart would require a diagram of every person who had ever trained at the Seidokan or a branch Dojo and who had established their own Dojo with any organisational structure and which was accepted by Higa. Besides an organisational chart would not reflect the actual lineage of the Motobu Undun Te family system from these 3 now elederly men, which is a separate issue.


Regards
Chris Norman

[Katsujinken]

Correction to earlier post
'what Seiki Higa taught Colonel R J Hobb's and what Seikichi Uehara and Seitoku Higa taught Mark Bishop are pretty much the same thing'.

Correction to this is:
What Seiki Toma taught Colonel R J Hobb's and what Seikichi Uehara and Seitoku Higa taught Mark Bishop are pretty much the same thing.

Additional Note:
It was apparently Shian Toma who introduced Colonel R J Hobb's to Seiki Toma but this was done with the help of Uehara.(Seiki Toma is not Shian Toma's principle teacher or a relative).

Regards

Chris Norman

[ghp]

Chris,

Again, thank you for a most informative and instructive post. I do hope you caught my coy remark for an org chart for being what it was -- just a quip (the :) was an indicator). I fully realized while saying it, that you'd be hard pressed ever to accomplish such a daunting task.
========
Mark,
I don't know where this thread should be archived.

Regards,
Guy

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by ghp
Mark,
I don't know where this thread should be archived.

Regards,
Guy

It is (sort of) agreed that it is not bellonging of the "baffling" tag......

So I guess it should be somewhere else.

Lets put it in gendai for now, if there are any objections then we can move it later.

[MarkF]

And so it goes...


Mark

[RobertW]

Dear Sirs,

My teacher has trained under Mr Toma, that is Seiki Toma, who is a different person than Shian Toma. My teacher, I believe conversed with Mr. Toma about Mr. Hobbs. Check out his form. He is the real deal, and furthermore out of respect for him it is my humble opinion that this thread be removed.
He writes for many respectable martial arts publications and I have had many conversations with him.

[RobertW]

Sorry it's late and I did not realise that this thread had already been moved. My humble apologes.
Sumimasen.

[JAMJTX]

I have never met Col. Hobbs but I did have some communication with him when he graciously helped me do some research.
I was looking into the history of the Seishinkai and Shogo Kuniba. I had a particular interest in the Hakko Ryu connection to the Seishinkai. I was led to Col Hobbs by a mutual aquaintance.
He was very open and forthcoming and provided much documentation. I never had any reason to question his sincerity or background.
I would not hesitate to train with him if I ever get the oppertunity and reccomend him to anyone who does have the chance.

[RobertW]

No doubt I would love a chance to train with Hobbs Hanshi.
osu