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Shorite
14th November 2003, 18:25
I was just wondering what style of karate this kata is from. we do a bunch of different katas from a bunch of different styles so it gets a little confusing after a while.

hector gomez
14th November 2003, 19:37
I think it's called Tekki in the shotokan karate style.



Hector Gomez

Richard Horrowi
14th November 2003, 21:41
Hector is that you? You mean you don't have anything else to say? I believe someone has stolen Hectors password and screen name as this cannot be him, for he didn't trash the Kata in any way.

Have a good weekend!

Richard

Shuri Te and is also pronounced Naifanchi.

hector gomez
14th November 2003, 21:51
Richard,

Sorry that's not like me,What I meant to say,is that Naihanchi is not the reason for Motobus great fighting skills.


:kiss:

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
14th November 2003, 22:31
Hector, Motobu did say that Nihanchi contained everything one needed to know about karate.

hector gomez
14th November 2003, 22:45
I think he might have had a little too much to drink that day.:toast:


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
14th November 2003, 22:49
Hector, how can you say that? Motobu was a very good fighter. Wether you like kata or not, you can't deny that he (Motobu) put it on the line. Many kata aficionados could learn something from him.

Hurricane Sokon
15th November 2003, 21:31
Manny's post can't be real! He's giving props to a ShuriTe guy? Oh my God!

As for Motobu, as good as he was there were many that were better, like Yabu Kentsu who kicked his butt. Naihanchi, kata afficionado or not, contains all that you need to know for (in-close) fighting. It's Shuri Te's Sanchin and is filled with tuite.

Bye and good replies...

Budoka 34
15th November 2003, 23:38
Sensei Vince Morris of the Kissaki-Kai has stated that Nahanchi (Tekki) is one of the most brutal kata going as far as Oyo or bunkai are concerned.

I really enjoy running it regardless of the version.


:smilejapa

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 00:06
Yes, my post is real. Motobu didn't just talk it, he backed it up. I would venture to say he had FIRST hand knoledge of what really worked. He didn't seem to be very "spiritual" though. I would put money on the fact he would step in the ring or octagon had he been alive today. And, if he saw the need, would alter his fighting style to adapt. He seems to be a predecessor to todays MMA type fighter IMO.

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 00:49
Manny, that is my impression of Motobu, too. Hector thinks Tekki Ni is what happens to you when you get kicked in the knee and it swells all up:D

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 00:51
When Hector gets to the Pearly Gates, his penance will be that he has to do Tekki kata while playing an accordian...for a thousand years:p

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 01:32
Originally posted by Gene Williams
When Hector gets to the Pearly Gates, his penance will be that he has to do Tekki kata while playing an accordian...for a thousand years:p
ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!! :D
Gene, I actually admire him. He's sooo spiritual. :D I actually learned nihanchi kata. I like the Tekki version but the Shorin version is ok too.

Nyuck3X
16th November 2003, 02:45
It was my first kata. Old school Shorin-ryu
always taught this as it's first kata. It is to
Shorin-ryu what Sanchin is to Goju-ryu. In fact,
the kiba dachi is sometimes called Naihanchi dachi.
I was taught with a slight pigeon toe like Sanchin.
Great in-fighting apps and kakki drills can be developed
from it as well as joint locking.
My favorite!

Peace...

hectokan
16th November 2003, 05:05
Gene,Gojuman,


Do you guys happen to have any still photos of any of Motobus fights or street altercations,video clips of anykind maybe?


PS:I need to prove something to you guys.:idea:

hectokan
16th November 2003, 05:14
When Gene gets to the pearly gates,he just might have to watch hours of uninterupted Pride/UFC fights.:eek:

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 05:46
Originally posted by hectokan
Gene,Gojuman,


Do you guys happen to have any still photos of any of Motobus fights or street altercations,video clips of anykind maybe?


PS:I need to prove something to you guys.:idea:
Holy fenoli Gene, we went and did it now. Here it comes. :eek:
Did his fights look like Nihanchi? Probably not. But he was a bad arse none the less. ;)
Hector, there is a sale at Mars on accordions. Better start practising.:D

Richard Horrowi
16th November 2003, 11:54
Hector,

Be careful, there is an article about Motobu kicking a Russian Boxers butt only the article has Funakoshis picture instead of Motobu. If you look at that picture you might start having nightmares of Kenkojuku.


Richard

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 13:50
I have always wished that someone like Higaonna Morio or Hayashi or Kuniba or Oyama in their prime could have taken on a Gracie or UFC guy or NHB guy. I really think the odds would've been at least even. Kuniba was pretty small, which may have worked against him. But can you imagine having to face Oyama in his prime?

hectokan
16th November 2003, 14:28
Boy,lucky for you cats that no video does exist of that famous fight between Motobu and the famous russian boxer.LOL,even if it did exist I am sure that you three muskuteers would draw the dots and make the connections.LOLOLOL

Motobu was an advocate of many different types of bogu type training even with boxing gloves on at times,yet Naihanchi is going to get the credit.:nono:no way my brother.

It's just a training tool guys,get over it,besides I just had a thought when you are born you come into this world without kata,then when you die you leave this world without kata,another thing to ponder.hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:eek:


Gojuman goes to the bathroom and changes his tune on training methods.please,atleast be consistent.Richard,I hear you train Goju also,here is two guys that don't even train Naihanchi kata jumping on the bandwagon,pleaaaaaaaaase.

Gene you atleast have an excuse,you can always line up your opponents of to the side and behind you everytime you fight and then and only then you can begin.

"HAJIME"

hectokan
16th November 2003, 14:46
I have always wished that someone like Higaonna Morio or Hayashi or Kuniba or Oyama in their prime could have taken on a Gracie or UFC guy or NHB guy. I really think the odds would've been at least even.


They would have needed some quality ground work or else their chances in the UFC/Pride would have really been small.

CEB
16th November 2003, 14:52
Originally posted by hectokan
....
Richard,I hear you train Goju also,here is two guys that don't even train Naihanchi kata jumping on the bandwagon,pleaaaaaaaaase.
...


Not necesarily true. I teach Naifunchin. I learned it from a Goju Man. A lot of Goju dojos teach it.

I've seen Motobu's book on Kumite that he wrote. It is fully illustrated. Its all Naihanchi. Hector's problem is he thinks training the kata means just dancing. I don't think he considers the kumite as part of kata and it is or it was. The entire appraoch to Japanese karate is somewhat backwards but it is efficient. Now you learn set of basics. The you learn a kata and you apply your basics to kata. That is the new way and it seems quicker. The Kodo was you learned a kata. Then you learned the techniques of the kata. Kata and Kumite pretty much same same. The kicker to this method is different kata can have different front kicks for example. Now everybody just does the front kick. Its all semantics. Fighting is fighting. People's idea of what karate is depends on what they have experienced. The only secret is hard work.

hectokan
16th November 2003, 15:31
You practice Baseball it looks like Baseball,you practice Swimming it looks like Swimming.you practice riding your bike it looks like riding a bike.you practice Soccer it looks like Soccer.you practice Surfing it looks like Surfing.You practice running it looks like running.you practice fighting it looks like kata,wait a second something is not right here what happened.:wave:

I know,I know,the physical laws of nature change here right.lol

CEB
16th November 2003, 15:41
Originally posted by hectokan
....you practice fighting it looks like kata,wait a second something is not right here what happened.:wave:

I know,I know,the physical laws of nature change here right.lol

Yes something like that. Because fighting can look a lot like Naifunchin but it sure will never look anything like Tekki.

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 15:52
Gojuman goes to the bathroom and changes his tune on training methods.please,atleast be consistent.
Hector, I am nothing if not consistent. Why can't I give Motobu credit? I personally believe it was his fighting that developed his skills rather than kata, but so what? The problem is that type of "spirit" is sorely lacking today. You have some really talented guys doing kata that looks awesome, yet they can't do kumite. THAT'S where I have a problem with that. If a guy can fight and wants to do kata, hey, whatever blows your skirt up man. I also learned Nihanchi some years back because I really liked the way it looked.

Boy,lucky for you cats that no video does exist of that famous fight between Motobu and the famous russian boxer.
Well, we don't know anything about the Russian. He could have been a scrub for all we know. But then again, so what? If you start making that comparison, then you fall into the little world the others fall into when they start making excuses for Ettish. At least he stepped in the ring and put it up. BTW, there was a KARATE guy in the KOG ( King of the Cage ) that won his fight by KO. I don't think he'll last long with stiffer competition, but at least he's doing it.

hectokan
16th November 2003, 16:14
Eddie,

Maybe that's it,I learned a watered down shotokan version.Boy am I pissed:rolleyes:,I got shortchanged somehow.Thank you Tekki for allowing me to see right thru you quickly,can you imagin if i would have learned naihanchi.I would have wasted an extra 15 years before figuring it out. :cool:

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 16:35
Originally posted by hectokan
You practice Baseball it looks like Baseball,you practice Swimming it looks like Swimming.you practice riding your bike it looks like riding a bike.you practice Soccer it looks like Soccer.you practice Surfing it looks like Surfing.You practice running it looks like running.you practice fighting it looks like kata,wait a second something is not right here what happened.:wave:

I know,I know,the physical laws of nature change here right.lol

I did some things with my girlfriend once that didn't look like screwing but, WOW...;)

hectokan
16th November 2003, 16:44
I did some things with my girlfriend once that didn't look like screwing but, WOW...


Those are the hidden secrets contained within love making.:D

CEB
16th November 2003, 16:47
Originally posted by hectokan
Eddie,

Maybe that's it,I learned a watered down shotokan version.Boy am I pissed:rolleyes:,I got shortchanged somehow.Thank you Tekki for allowing me to see right thru you quickly,can you imagin if i would have learned naihanchi.I would have wasted an extra 15 years before figuring it out. :cool:

Probably wouldn't have changed anything. You would have came up with the same conclusion. That is your path you must follow it. The ti derived techniques that are taught in Naifunchin are very effective when someone grabs you in a fit of violence. They have worked very well for me and saved my life once.

Your path lead you to a boxing ring. Once there you would have found these techniques to be too slow to be effective and would have discounted them and been very disillusioned. You are doing what you should be doing. No man has any business to train for the crap I used to train for. Personal development would have been a much more noble cause and for that Tekki works just fine.

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 16:48
We don't really know to what extent Motobu and the old guys did grappling or groundwork, do we?

CEB
16th November 2003, 16:55
Charles Goodin article about Tegumi (http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html)

Richard Horrowi
16th November 2003, 16:58
Teruo Hayashi had a background in Judo before Karate I believe he made 3rd Dan. But I guess that still wouldn't consider him worthy of a Gracie because he doesn't qualify as a badd arse unless he's done BJJ right Hector?;)

Ettish yeah he got whooped however Marcus Bossett fought and won a match then lost to Big Dan Severn. Marcus was a Shorin Ryu stylist and is under a hmmm George Alexander, so he cant pick a good teacher.

Gerard Girdou was a Savate and Kyokushin stylist and he did fairly well. Considering he broke his hand in the first fight and still fought 2 more times after that. Didn't Shamrock quit in the 3rd or 4th UFC after breaking his hand in the first match while attempting to show his awesome striking skills? I believe Gracie threw in the towel after a thrashing from Kimo, but atleast he tapped Kimo, he also threw it in after breaking his foot or ankle after fighting Sakuraba? The group that has done the worst in NHB has been BOXERS, note not Kickboxers. What about that CLOWN with one glove? Milton Bowens did good but got tapped by the Ninja guy. Royce said Kempo man Keith Hackney hit the hardest of all the guys and he and his corner were most worried about Girdou.

Didn't Judo Gene Lebell challenge Helio Gracie? Then the Gracies said ah he way too much maybe him fite ah my bruddah.

RH

Gene Williams
16th November 2003, 17:01
Thanks, Ed. I have seen that article before...it covers pretty much the same bunkai with which I am familiar. But, any culture (Japanese/Okinawan)that produced judo must have had pretty extensive grappling experience. That does not happen in a vacuum. From the history of Daito-ryu, etc. there must have been a pretty heavy emphasis on it that somehow got played down in karate. Probably because of the emphasis on multiple opponents (I guess).

hectokan
16th November 2003, 17:19
Richard,
Teruo Hayashi had a background in Judo before Karate I believe he made 3rd Dan. But I guess that still wouldn't consider him worthy of a Gracie because he doesn't qualify as a badd arse unless he's done BJJ right Hector?

Richard,you know better than that,you know I believe in IT'S ALL GOOD,BJJ is not answer for everything.shame on you.lol



Gerard Girdou was a Savate and Kyokushin stylist and he did fairly well.

Somehow,I just can't picture gerard dilligently working on naihanchi. :p




Gene Williams
We don't really know to what extent Motobu and the old guys did grappling or groundwork, do we?

Well I don't know too what extent they practiced grappling either, what I do know is that to be succesful in UFC/Pride you have to work on grappling with live resistence 3 to 4 hours daily 24/7.I do not believe their focus was in this dept.


Guys besides in the real fight world game,legends are built around having extensive fights 30,40,50 fights.

Richard Horrowi
16th November 2003, 17:41
Nah don't think Gerard worked his Naihanchi either. As the previous thread was over before it began all things evolve. Motobus Naihanchi was a great tool and I agree with Hector. I don't think he was using it in the bar room brawls.

Just razzzin ya Hector because I know you at times are as Mary McGovern wrote "Torn between two lovers" Judo and BJJ. Well 3 if you wanna count your Muay Thai.

RH


It is all good except for well you guys know!

hectokan
16th November 2003, 17:59
Thanks Ed for the tegumi article.Is it safe to say that all thru out karates history,Grappling has always been a vital part in making karate work?

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 19:21
Originally posted by Gene Williams
We don't really know to what extent Motobu and the old guys did grappling or groundwork, do we?
Gene, I've never heard of how far they did or didn't go, but it seems that grappling as we know it today was not the case back then. Those who new it were probably not as "specialized" as today, thus the grappling techniques found in karate are not that ground specific. Although Goju does have take downs in them, they do not address being on your back as they stress you being the one to put your opponent on his and finish.

Rob Alvelais
16th November 2003, 19:54
Originally posted by Goju Man
Gene, I've never heard of how far they did or didn't go, but it seems that grappling as we know it today was not the case back then. Those who new it were probably not as "specialized" as today, thus the grappling techniques found in karate are not that ground specific. Although Goju does have take downs in them, they do not address being on your back as they stress you being the one to put your opponent on his and finish.

Seconded, Manny. From what I've been exposed to in karate, the grappling is the destroy the joint stuff, akin to Ju jitsu/Aikido. The idea with karate can be somewhat summed up as, evade/block, strike, break. Rolling about on the floor, with ne waza doesn't seem to be the focus as far as I can see.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
16th November 2003, 19:57
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I did some things with my girlfriend once that didn't look like screwing but, WOW...;)

But, did it look like Nifanchi?

Rob

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 20:30
Can someone explain why the same kata is referred to as Nihanchi, nifanchi, nifunchi?

hectokan
16th November 2003, 20:42
Rob avelais
Rolling about on the floor, with ne waza doesn't seem to be the focus as far as I can see.


Rob,my understanding of joint,break,grappling etc, is that realistically speaking the pressure applied to the joints are much harder to apply standing than on the ground.


On the ground you are able to control and minimize the movement of your opponents body.In controling and minimizing your opponents body this gives you better control needed in applying proper leverage a very important key in submiting or breaking a joint.

I am not really saying that Aikido or traditional jujutsu type joint manipulations(viva seagal) cannot be executed.I just think that they are much harder to pull off.

I would imagin that the smaller joint manipulations would be much more emphasised with standup grappling arts like karate,aikijisu,etc.Since the break can come fast & hard the problem lies with ability to be able to pull something like this off on a consistent and reliable basis.


It could work,it just seems like low percentage techs.Rob you do bring up a good point thou and I would love to get into this topic more profoundly,since this is the core hidden principles & techs usually found or hidden in katas.

So much is made of the light that there are hidden techniques within the katas that are not revealed to the naked eye but even in understanding some of these hidden techs,it does not convince me of them being high percentage moves.

gmanry
16th November 2003, 20:54
Manny,

The reason has to do with the fact that English is a phonetic language and Okinawan, Japanese, and Chinese are pictographic (mainly) languages. Put them all together, plus generational slang and dialects, and you get quite a bit of variation in transliterations (conversion of pictographs to phonetics).

We just called the Naifanchi kata the nifty nanchis to get around all the confusion. ;) (PS, yes I know there are no plurals in Japanese/Okinawan)

IMO, most of the "hidden" techniques in kata that are really useful are throws to the ground that typically wind up making the opponents head bounce off the ground. The Osoto gari in taikyoku is not a Judo style osoto gari. It isn't a gari at all (reap), but that is the closest throw to it, and I don't know what else to call it. It may be closer to Osoto Garuma (wheel), and I have taught it both ways. It usually winds up causing a damaged wrist, fractured arm, and/or lump on the nogin when executed.

There are wristlocks and neck breaks, and pressure point techniques and such in the kata, but I agree with Hector, good luck at pulling them off as primary techniques.

Rob Alvelais
16th November 2003, 21:03
Hi Hector!


Originally posted by hectokan
Rob avelais


Rob,my understanding of joint,break,grappling etc, is that realistically speaking the pressure applied to the joints are much harder to apply standing than on the ground.

Be that as it may, from what one sees in kata and what I've been exposed to from some high ranking dudes, the emphasis still doesn't seem to be on the sort of ground work we see in Judo or BJJ.



On the ground you are able to control and minimize the movement of your opponents body.In controling and minimizing your opponents body this gives you better control needed in applying proper leverage a very important key in submiting or breaking a joint.

I am not really saying that Aikido or traditional jujutsu type joint manipulations(viva seagal) cannot be executed.I just think that they are much harder to pull off.

I would imagin that the smaller joint manipulations would be much more emphasised with standup grappling arts like karate,aikijisu,etc.Since the break can come fast & hard the problem lies with ability to be able to pull something like this off on a consistent and reliable basis.


It could work,it just seems like low percentage techs.
I wonder how difficult it truly is, if, you've sufficiently pummeled the resistance out of your opponent? Unlike Aikido's emphasis in training, the pummelling aspect is empasized over the creative chiropractic elements in karate. Perhaps the concerns you raised above are minimized with sufficent smackage?


Rob

Rob Alvelais
16th November 2003, 21:05
Originally posted by gmanry
Manny,
There are wristlocks and neck breaks, and pressure point techniques and such in the kata, but I agree with Hector, good luck at pulling them off as primary techniques.

Yes indeed, as one's primary technique, good luck. However, I don't see these things as the primary techniques in karate. Rather, the striking element is primary with karate.

Rob

Goju Man
16th November 2003, 21:30
Hector, we all know that bjj, mma, vale tudo is probably todays best bet, but can we have a discussion other than this will work or that won't or what. I believe many of those techniques were doable back then. Sort of like when I was a kid, anyone who could throw a half decent kick was able to pull it off being that no one really knew how to deal with it. The same way bjj was in the early UFC's.
Glenn, thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure so I thought I would ask.
As for the primary techniques, as far as I can tell, Karate's primary techniques would seem to be punching, kicking, elbow and grabbing techniques with tai sabaki for positioning. Now granted there are other deadly applications but it has to come via their primary weapons. That being said, when I hear the old karate doesn't work because the eye gouges or breaking techniques aren't allowed in the sporting arena, I don't buy it. The usefulness or lack thereof of ANY fighting system should not rely on a small percentage of techniques. If you can't hit your opponent with a good strong gyaku zuki, how can you expect to pull out his eyes?

hectokan
16th November 2003, 21:42
Yes indeed, as one's primary technique, good luck. However, I don't see these things as the primary techniques in karate. Rather, the striking element is primary with karate.

I agree with you Rob,it's just that most karate practicioners tell me just the opposite,that the striking element is the school boy stuff and the hidden techs is the real deal,bread & butter of the art.



Unlike Aikido's emphasis in training, the pummelling aspect is empasized over the creative chiropractic elements in karate. Perhaps the concerns you raised above are minimized with sufficent smackage?


This would make a lot more sense to me.

gmanry
16th November 2003, 23:04
Manny,

I think you are right, most karate practitioners couldn't do any better with all that stuff thrown in. Although, in the last 4 years I have been shown that hair and skin grabs and even eye gouges do have specific technique to them to get them to be the most effective/damaging. You would never want to do this to an opponent in a non-lethal match, and a person with high pain tolerance may shake them off, but probably not the first time (personal experience). Most of it is anatomical and also involves the very same types of principles of manipulation involved in Judo/BJJ and other balance manipulative arts. They aren't that amazing really, but everyone just thinks an eyepoke is an eyepoke or a pinch is what people are talking about when they are discussing skin and muscle tearing (just the name, can't really do that to easily). Real skin tearing is extremely painful because it basically is stressing the skins connection to the facia, not just pinching the skin. I have seen very tough people just wilt against it. At the same time, not easy to do in all situations, as it involves grabbing LESS skin rather than MORE skin, so your target is small. Against a low body fat individual, even more difficult.

I think what kata can bring to a fighter is greater sensitivity over the range of motion. This is what I got from my kata practice and also playing with the Yang Tai Chi form (more kata). That and sensitivity drills as an adjunct helped my fighting tremendously. First it calms you down and makes you less reliant on adrenalized speed and strength, which is jumpy and sporadic. Second it makes you more aware of angles and your sense of your opponents balance.

I am not saying kata is IT, it isn't. Obviously, I spent a bit of time in the ring and on the mat (mostly losing to my betters there) figuring out how to apply those specific things to the over all picture. Our kata is very smooth and doesn't use very much snap, so we get that sort of benefit from it. Also, there is never a dead space in our kata, everything is continuous from one line to another. Typically, if I can't feel the person's body weight in my mind against my movement in kata, I haven't done it right.

Hector, is right, many karate people fall back on these crutch arguments. However, I am starting to realize that there is a big difference between the type of "fight" that most traditional martial arts are talking about vs. the type of fight that MMA is pointing to. Both are valid, just different assumptions. By studying both, rather than just being a slave to one camp, I hope I can make this more clear in the future rather than just saying, well MMA is no good against multiple opponents or some such pat argument. Why? What is it about more so called traditional arts that is better in that respect, etc.

Good discussion by the way.

Shorite
16th November 2003, 23:31
Originally posted by Hurricane Sokon
Manny's post can't be real! He's giving props to a ShuriTe guy?

i would just like to clear something up here, i don't train in shurite, i train in shorite ryu tai jutsu. i am quite sure they are different.

hectokan
16th November 2003, 23:56
Both are valid, just different assumptions. By studying both, rather than just being a slave to one camp, I hope I can make this more clear in the future rather than just saying, well MMA is no good against multiple opponents or some such pat argument. Why? What is it about more so called traditional arts that is better in that respect, etc.

Great!

Goju Man
17th November 2003, 00:00
Originally posted by Shorite
i would just like to clear something up here, i don't train in shurite, i train in shorite ryu tai jutsu. i am quite sure they are different.
David, I think he was referring to me giving Motobu credit. It's not hard to understand though, he was a fighter who did kata and probably not vice versa.;)

Hurricane Sokon
17th November 2003, 00:31
Well I'm a fighter who does kata. Not a fighter that spars and claims it is fighting. Motobu did the kumite I do. Bogu sparring is no more real than full contact sparring or jiyu kumite.

As far as Shuri Te guy I meant Motobu. Not Shorite or Shoryn Ryu or whatever you guys are claimimg with this reinvention of the wheel style. That Hartouche guy is funny. He even calls his style "Shoryn Ryu Taijutsu" in Europe. Whatever.

As for grappling and Okinawan Kata- even Hohan Soken mentions that the "games" Okinawan kids use to play involved grappling, standing and on the ground, which often led to broken limbs and wrenched necks; or something like that. Sounds like submission wrassling to me.

If you look around and quit dissing, if you read and comprehend what you see on a website you would know that some of George Alexander's (joke boy) real-deal contemporaries, guys like Coffman, Lindsey and Ohl, know these grappling things. Just like Naha Te dudes (Higaonna for example) know great bunkai and grappling interpretations from the kata he's mastered.

BTW Tekki doesn't even use the pigeon-toed Naihanchi stance. How can it even be considered close to the true techs and interpretation? The Naihanchi stance is the base from which the principles and conditioning build.

Motobu says his fighting got better after he really trained in and understood Naihanchi. Then he KO'd that Western boxer with a "secret" tech from the kata :).

Good post Shorite. I wonder what version you guys do?

Hank Irwin
17th November 2003, 01:06
As most of you know that have trained in Naihanchi for a few years that the stance is sanchin dachi in application, in kata it just looks like straight up kiba dachi. But if you examine your stance as you execute your waza, you will see the stance is a long sanchin dachi. Kiba/kosa dachi is used also, but mostly sanchin dachi. The Naihanchi katas are full of real life combat techniques, not to mention the tuite/torite appplications. In a real life situation, you must attack the attacker. This is not begun with grappling techniques. A GOOD ToDe(not to be confused with Japanese MA's) practitioner will smack you silly before you can "grab" him. This is not always done with the fist either. It could be though, or maybe a wrist break, or nukite to throat. Or maybe a big toe kick to inside of thigh. Most times result is opponent going down. And we make sure he doesn't get back up too quick.
Naihanchi Sho, Ne & San no katas are a handful of real fighting kata, you just have to find a real deal ToDe Sensei to set you straight. Naihanchi have there roots in Chinese Southern Fist Arts to Okinawa. Motobu Sensei used many waza from Naihanchi when he fought in the red light districts of Okinawa. He learned how useful the seiken really was too. Motobu made the "Channan" katas what they are today. IMO:D

CEB
17th November 2003, 01:50
Originally posted by hectokan
Thanks Ed for the tegumi article.Is it safe to say that all thru out karates history,Grappling has always been a vital part in making karate work?

Yes, maybe, but not in the way that Judo or BJJ guy would grapple. I am no expert like some of the guys on e-budo. I just do a little karate. This is just my opinion but I think Gene's reference to Daito Ryu is pretty much spot on. There are a few minor differences in the techniques, Like in a Nikajo hand trap the Japanese stylist usually traps the hand on top and the Okinawians I've learned from seem to trap from the backside of the arm, but this is minor difference kind of stuff. The techniques I think have the same type of feel. I've talked to a man who was a student of Shian Toma of Seidokan and also a practitioner of Hakko Ryu Jujitsu. I guess Toma had no structure or naming convention to his Tuite it was just a bunch of techniques. This is bad if your students are into taking notes. :) Well he created the naming convention that several SeidoKan schools use to teach tuite based on Hakko Ryu nomenclature. This later caused a problem with internet martial art researchers trying to use Seidokan to create a link between Daito Ryu and Okinawian Karate. It was pretty funny but that is another story. Toma Shinshi told him once Jujutsu and Tuite Same Same.

I've played with some Aikido people and I know some of you guys have also and well their chance of making their Aikido work on most of us in a fight wouldn't be too good I don't think. IMO Tuite in a standup fight with another karate man is similarily useless without good karate atemi. The grappling techniques are too slow if a good fighter is trying to punch or kick you. But like Rob said if you pummel him real good then you can go for it or if some chump just grabs you and if you are justified and believe it is necesarry to do so then apply the joint attacks. But trying to do this to an on balanced competent striker, good luck I wouldn't trust that strategy but I'm not very good. The primary purpose of Tuite from what I've been taught is further control your enemy so that you can REALLY, REALLY hurt him with your atemi. Then again, maybe this is just because my teachers realize that I'm a lot better at hitting things than doing joint manipulations.

Have a good week.

Goju Man
17th November 2003, 02:53
Ed, I agree with you on the atemi. That really is the bread and butter. I've seen a lot of this tuite stuff. I just don't see how anyone is going to grab an on coming attack, strategically grab two set up points and then hit the third all before you get clobbered. I think some of this over analyzation of bunkai has just gone way overboard. You have to be able to block, shift, punch, kick and or throw. The work needs to be in this area and not the 1 in 1000 chance you will hit the three meridians in the proper order at 2:00 a.m. If this weren't the case, why do makiwara training? Why do supplemental training? All you would need to do is attend a Dillman seminar, buy a couple of tapes, a mannequin with the meridians marked on them and viola. I think the real secret of karate is being kept real secret, and the so called secrets are not what they are cracked up to be.

Motobu Sensei used many waza from Naihanchi when he fought in the red light districts of Okinawa.
Yep, very spiritual indeed. I'm sure he would not want to partake in any of these shallow sporting events. He was much too spiritual for that. Red light district? Fornicating? Fighting? I love that guy. Sounds a lot like Gene.:p

CEB
17th November 2003, 03:28
Then again according to Roby Reed when the first US Judo Olympic team needed help preparing for the Olympics they went to the JundoKan and trained with Miyazato Sensei :) Roby Reed was to have been on the team but he broke his leg I guess.

Goju Man
17th November 2003, 12:35
Originally posted by CEB
Then again according to Roby Reed when the first US Judo Olympic team needed help preparing for the Olympics they went to the JundoKan and trained with Miyazato Sensei :) Roby Reed was to have been on the team but he broke his leg I guess.
Ed, wasn't Myazato originally a Judo guy? I would believe that they went there for his Judo expertise rather than what Goju could do for them.

CEB
17th November 2003, 13:36
Originally posted by Goju Man
Ed, wasn't Myazato originally a Judo guy? I would believe that they went there for his Judo expertise rather than what Goju could do for them.

Not originally. He began with Miyagi first but took up Judo about one year later. My post was a joke, my humor is pretty dry. He was 6th dan in Judo and former Okinawa Judo Champion and Okinawa Police Judo Champion.

Shorite
17th November 2003, 18:14
i haven't read all the posts here, but i get the general jist, which i think is a yes-kata no-kata arguement. so how about in the paraphrased words of mas oyama. "singular moves like outside block, are words. kata is like structured sentences. free sparring (fighting) is like conversation.

Goju Man
17th November 2003, 22:04
Originally posted by CEB
Not originally. He began with Miyagi first but took up Judo about one year later. My post was a joke, my humor is pretty dry. He was 6th dan in Judo and former Okinawa Judo Champion and Okinawa Police Judo Champion.
Ed, we got to get you to hang out with Gene a little more. Some of us (me) are a little slow on the uptake sometimes.;)

Goju Man
17th November 2003, 22:08
Originally posted by Shorite
i haven't read all the posts here, but i get the general jist, which i think is a yes-kata no-kata arguement. so how about in the paraphrased words of mas oyama. "singular moves like outside block, are words. kata is like structured sentences. free sparring (fighting) is like conversation.
David, I was hoping to avoid the same old pro vs conn kata debate that has been going on for quite some time. As far as kata being a "conversation", I don't agree with that statement. None of Sosai's people fought anything like their kata. The only schools that I'm aware of that look like their kata is Ashihara and Enshin karate.

CEB
17th November 2003, 22:35
Originally posted by Goju Man
Ed, we got to get you to hang out with Gene a little more. Some of us (me) are a little slow on the uptake sometimes.;)

I'm Steven Wright in a gi.

Bustillo, A.
18th November 2003, 11:18
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
In a real life situation, you must attack the attacker. This is not begun with grappling techniques. A GOOD ToDe(not to be confused with Japanese MA's) practitioner will smack you silly before you can "grab" him. This is not always done with the fist either. It could be though, or maybe a wrist break, or nukite to throat. Or maybe a big toe kick to inside of thigh. Most times result is opponent going down. And we make sure he doesn't get back up too quick.
IMO:D

...a toe kick to thigh.
Are you serious? If you are wearing steel-toed boots perhaps. I'll bet you are not going to drop most people with your naked toe to their thigh.

Hank Irwin
18th November 2003, 13:53
My big toe is like a 32oz. estwing(big metal framing hammer) and has been responsible for taking down a few opponents. On outside of thigh also. If you cause enough pain in just about any given area your opponent will pass out. There are some exceptions to the rule. I have encountered a few, just have to give more pain to produce desired effect. Pain in one given area will be more responsive to some than to others. A MA that trains in body conditioning will be less responsive to pain but not to kyusho. Usually, what hurts you, hurts the other guy. Within the studies of Naihanchi, is much pain to learn, but that is ok, pain is a necessary tool. And I am sure everyone can relate to that.

A big toe won't take someone out:o I think different. Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing.

Matt Wolfson
18th November 2003, 14:25
Interesting debate as to the merit and application of ground fighting through the Naihanchi kata series. I have also heard the discussion of hidden techinques. We for one do view the Naihanchi series as having a secret (or less mellow dramatic) unseen use. Not from the angle of hidden techinques, etc. But the kata itself. We practice this kata on 8 inch balance beams. It is one thing to do these katas on the ground with speed, power and explosiveness. It is another thing intirely to do it 3 feet off the ground. It is amazing how just the slight change can through off your mental focus and that is reflected in ones snap, speed and explosiveness. Gets to the point where one is so mentally off balance that one readily falls off the beam. The beam forces the person to focus on and concentrate doing your stances and foot work very precisely. If the karateka can explode with confidence, power and precision into a horse stance on the beam, Then he/she is well on the way to developing rootedness not only physically but mentally as well. Once one is comfortable doing it at that height. start on a higher wall and start the process over again. I know there are people that will question this and call it into doubt. But I strongly urge one to try it. It is all in the experience. Words do not convey the power that can be gained from doing the kata in this way.
-Littlepond

Budoka 34
18th November 2003, 14:44
My instructor frequently uses toe kicks to the legs. I can tell you from experience that he can make most people sink or jump at his leasure.:D
We practice striking the t-band(nerves) and other areas that cause quick reactions.:cool:

:smilejapa

CEB
18th November 2003, 15:44
Originally posted by Budoka 34
My instructor frequently uses toe kicks to the legs. I can tell you from experience that he can make most people sink or jump at his leasure.:D
We practice striking the t-band(nerves) and other areas that cause quick reactions.:cool:

:smilejapa

I like Toe Kicking. It’s a good delivery method. I especially like it if I’m wearing Justin boots. We train barefoot in the dojo but normally we wear shoes up north. People may want to consider that when thinking about toe kicks, maybe not.

I want to address a subject of interest to me. That is people’s state of mind in the dojo. Not picking on Mr. Kite. Your post is just handy for going someplace that interests me. What is your state of mind when your sensei hits you with this toe kick to the leg nerves. I am willing to bet that you are in a relatively calm state of mind. I know what you are saying I’ve been there. Mr. Koeppel’s kyusho jutsu is very good. He applies pain very well. I’ve been in the dojo and seen him effortlessly bring stars to Jim Price’s eyes. The technique is good. Also tori’s and uke’s friendship is good. What I wonder about is what would happen in a real fight. Jim Price is a very large powerful man. He is big and very strong. Now if he was PO’d and full of adrenaline would this stuff work. Mike Minor told us about a guy onetime that used iron shirt to defend against one of Mr. Oyata’s KO techniques and it worked. So Mr. Oyata flicked him across the nose disrupting his concentration then knocked him out. My thing is that I believe adrenaline and anger based tension has an iron shirt type of effect that can’t easily be disrupted.

I went at it last night with a dojo mate. He is a Sandan barely my Junior we’ve been thumping on each other for 20 years now. I am having trouble walking today. The old !!!!!!! hit me in the thigh with a very good round kick. It started knotting up real bad on the drive home. I didn’t feel it when he hit me with during playtime. This is common. Is this something that people consider relevant when you train kyusho. Kyusho is good. Kyusho is just sophisticated target selection, but I think people reactions to getting hit is going to depend greatly on their emotional state. Any thoughts on this.

Shorite
18th November 2003, 16:40
Originally posted by Goju Man
As far as kata being a "conversation", I don't agree with that statement.

Mr. Salazar, in the analogy, kata is structured sentences, sparring is conversation.
it makes sense to me, because its like learning french.
outside block, bonjour, one word which means hello
kata, bonjour je ma'pelle David, a sentence (forgive me if it needs correcting, haven't done french for a while) meaning hello my name is David.
Sparring, como ta'pelle tu?
je ma'pelle David. a conversation with one person saying, what is your name? the other saying, my name is David.

again, anyone who does french here, please forgive my inaccuracies because i haven't done french for the better part of eternity.

Budoka 34
18th November 2003, 18:50
Ed,

I agree completely! Emotional and mental state play a huge role in reaction to "kyusho" techniques. I have felt the response both as stated and under stress (though to a much less degree).
We practice multiple striking and mental disruption techniques to make these types of techniques more "realistic" and effective.

That said; I can also say I have used single point techniques in the real world with great effect.:D
Besides no matter how big or how strong they are, a swift kick to the knee brings everyone down to your size.:)


:smilejapa

CEB
18th November 2003, 19:51
Taking the legs out from under someone you are correct. Something I harp on a lot though are nonchalant karate attitudes toward kicking to the knees. Sometimes I think karate people underestimate what it required to destroy a knee joint. I think if the knees were as weak as some karate guys believed, then no one would be able to walk because our legs would break out from under us due to the strain our body weight. I go on this tirade sometimes when I see weak flippy looking kensetsu geri from people instead of bring the knee up so you can tromp down vigorously.

Goju Man
18th November 2003, 22:35
David, I know what you are trying to say. Let me put it this way. Whenever someone is learning a foreign language, a book might give a certain word which may or may not be one that is used with frequency. The instructor might then tell you verbally that this particular word is not used in common and the word that is USED is this one. Kata may use stances to imply say the dropping of the body in the technique, but it's use in the kata as a tool by itself would not be practical in a real scenario. You probably won't fight in a sanchin stance for example, if you are in a deep shiko dachi, you won't get your kicks out very quickly and will telegraph it more.
Example: here in Miami, you could say automovil in spanish when reffering to your car, but most will probably look at you funny and figure out you're not from around here. The word used here is carro.

Ed, I agree with your analysis on adrenaline. I've seen it work both ways. I've seen it make a guy almost indestructable, while completely freaking out another guy. I've experienced many times hard shots during training that I didn't feel until the next day.

CEB
18th November 2003, 23:00
Originally posted by Goju Man
...
Ed, I agree with your analysis on adrenaline. I've seen it work both ways. I've seen it make a guy almost indestructable, while completely freaking out another guy. I've experienced many times hard shots during training that I didn't feel until the next day.

Yes thats true. My first Goju Sensei was a policeman and member of the Area Tac team (Its like SWAT). Most the senior students were cops. He spent a lot of time talking about the effect of adrenline. The effects on vision and fine motor skills are very interesting. The tunnel vision effect is why sometimes eyewitness don't do so good.

Q: "Sir what did he look like?"
A:" He looked like a gun!"

Goju Man
19th November 2003, 00:00
That's the reason practising all the deadly techniques in a controlled atmosphere is one thing, doing it as they say when the bullets are "live" is sometimes another. This is the area I believe sport specific arts and competition help. Those "butterfkies" before a fight or competition is a way of learning to control it. Some fighters actually feed off it. Others can't get by it. Kumite is an essential part of training because of this. Not everyone is a competitor, but trying to "liven" up the bullets helps. I always have butterflies before fighting. It turns into something else as soon as the fighting starts.

Shorite
19th November 2003, 01:48
i see what you mean Mr. Salazar. but its still a good analogy darn it! maybe i'll use it on someone who is more of a newb than me. :)

Goju Man
19th November 2003, 03:32
Originally posted by Shorite
i see what you mean Mr. Salazar. but its still a good analogy darn it! maybe i'll use it on someone who is more of a newb than me. :)
IMO, kata is like an encyclopedia of a styles techniques.

Gene, where art thou po sum??

Gene Williams
19th November 2003, 12:10
The White Possum is temporarily worn out with too much discussion. He would rather do kata than talk about it:p However, he agrees with he SFA guys that if you don't fight and practice with live opponents, you will never learn to fight. But, when he ain't fightin' he likes to do kata or hang out on his favorite tree with the guys just chillin' and dreamin' about a nice cow carcass somewhere:)

TomMarker
20th November 2003, 20:39
Naihanchi is great for groundfighting. Knock the SOB on the ground and then stomp on him. ;)