Don't be shy, step inside and ask away

[Tripitaka of AA]

I think it is fair to say, that this forum has many more Readers than Contributors. This cannot be a good thing.

So come on in, the water's lovely.

Ask anything you like. If it is not worth answering then that will happen. If it sparks off a major debate with posts raining down from around the world, so much the better.

But you could also find out something that you just never knew before.. and that is a good thing, right! It is something that everyone can benefit from.

[John Lindsey]

Most of us are still trying to figure out what the heck a Kenshi is :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Aaaah, a visit from the Founder of E-Budo {bow}, welcome to our humble slice of your bandwidth... :nw: :smilejapa :nw:

[Random]

First time someone called me a Kenshi I was almost angry it sounded too much like the name of the rotten cabbage dish that is popular in Korea. Kimche I think it is or something like that.
I thought he was commenting that I was really rank at the moment since that cabbage is one of the worst smelling dishes I have ever had the misfortune to smell.

[Tripitaka of AA]

[As a Novice]
Gee, there are so many words!

And it is all in some weird foreign language. How can I ever hope to learn them all. Where should I start?

Is the Japanese I hear in class, like "normal" Japanese, or are the words unusual for a Japanese Speaker too? If I ask my Japanese friend, will he know what it means?

I wonder, does anyone have a list of the first 10 words I should know. Then the next 10 and so on. I suppose the technique names are important, but I keep messing up the other ones, like counting to ten, or when to line up, etc.
[/As a Novice]

[As a 1 kyu]
Should I be watching Japanese movies to get the right pronunciation? Is it better to go for the Samurai guttural drawl, or the Airline Stewardess Soprano.?

When should I use "Shi" for 4, and when should I use "Yon"? How about "Shichi" or "Nana" for 7?
[/As a 1 kyu]

[As a Yudansha]
I guess I'll have to see the Kanji for that, if I'm going to look up the meaning.

Toro is the red one, don't forget the wasabi! Maybe you should stick to the Ebi.

Dogi, please! There is no such word as "gi".
[/As a Yudansha]




Oh Hell, there is no such thing as a dumb question, just the dumb people who don't ever ask questions.

[Mike Williams]

OK, here's a technical question...

You guys don't train on mats, right? From this, I deduce that your ukemi is more of the aikido-esque rolling type than the judoey slamming the mat variety... (feel free to correct me).

Given that ukemi can be some of the most daunting skills to teach a newcomer, how exactly do you introduce folks to nagewaza without having them run in terror...

I'm very interested in how SK teaches throwing, and landing.

Cheers,

Mike

[David Dunn]

Good question Mike. Of course it is horses for courses. The type of ukemi will depend on the type of nage waza. In general they aren't slamming into the floor. The actual ukemi is made by landing on the ball of the 'leading' foot. More to the point the person performing the throw ought to do so in a way that helps the receiver to avoid landing on their back or head first, usually by giving a bit of support. At other times an ukemi more like aikido style rolling is required.

Occasionally collapsing in an undignified heap on the floor is what is required :laugh:

[Tripitaka of AA]

David, did you mean;

"For the purposes of Learning, the person performing the throw ought to do so in a way that helps the receiver to avoid landing on their back or head first, usually by giving a bit of support. " my addition in italics


Surely we don't ask any attacker we meet to offer us a little help while they chuck us around :eek:

[David Dunn]

David you're such a pedant sometimes. :)

ps Mike, there are a few helpful exercises to practice ukemi. There are basic single-form ukemi of course, and then a lot of exercises where you throw yourself, either by holding onto a partners obi, or their arm/s. The latter can develop by the partner applying the kind of 'flip' that might later occur.

I think that you have to give yourself to the throw to make a nice ukemi. If you do the proper attacking technique and then simply try to keep a straight back, then the proper application of the nage will launch one or other of your legs into the air. The ukemi simply allows this to happen. Those kenshi that grab, hold on for dear life and try to root their feet to the ground will end up collapsing in a painful and undignified heap on the floor :)

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'll have you know that apart from a minor indiscretion with torn underwear (referred to recently), my "heaps" always retained their dignity.

As for the use of mats. While there are some obvious safeguards, there are some quite common injuries from mats. Particularly toe injuries. I found that learning ukemi on a mat simply brought a greater fear when it cme time to try it on a more common surface (we don't walk to work on cushions, or go to pubs where the floor is a polyurethane foam, vinyl covered mat... do we).

[Mike Williams]

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

Personally, although my ukemi is pretty good (possibly the only thing I'm good at), I wouldn't want to get rid of the mats because they give you one less thing to worry about (i.e. you or your uke landing safely)... but then nagewaza and newaza probably constitute 90% of my curriculum.

Does SK allow throws/takedowns during randori? I think I've seen clips of your embu which included throws. ("Nutters!" was my first reaction. It looked pretty intense :cool: )

David, I hear you on the toe-injury thing. Been there, done that...

Cheers,

Mike

[Tripitaka of AA]

Generally speaking, Embu is the most likely place to see the nage and the ukemi, but as this is an integral part of training (not just for demo or competition), it does come up quite often.

The problem with including takedowns or throws as part of "Free" randori is quite obviously Safety. There can be modified randori where the attacker will submit to the throw once the defender has commenced the correct move. In other words, using free attack, but limited defence, then a co-operative completion of the defensive move. Does that make sense at all?

If I grab you, you try to release then throw, and halfway through that I try and pull a fast one by resisting/pulling/pushing/arseing about then the technically correct thing to do is switch techniques, probably give me a smack in the face to disorientate me then throw me or lock me up in an unexpected way. Then I might be held in excruciating pain for a few seconds extra, just until I realise that messing about in the middle of training is inadvisable.

Seriously though, the optimum use of the throw does not necessarily produce a great leaping ukemi, just an "undignified heap on the floor". The ukemi is the remarkably clever and talented escape from serious injury by someone who realises that his attack has been thwarted and is now in danger of burying his head in the floor if he doesn't jump right. In free sparring, the chances of both participants managing to share a moment of great skill simultaneously, are quite rare. Not sharing a moment of great skill can easily result in injury to one or both.

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
OK, here's a technical question...

You guys don't train on mats, right? From this, I deduce that your ukemi is more of the aikido-esque rolling type than the judoey slamming the mat variety... (feel free to correct me).
Thats about right.


Given that ukemi can be some of the most daunting skills to teach a newcomer, how exactly do you introduce folks to nagewaza without having them run in terror...

I'm very interested in how SK teaches throwing, and landing.

Cheers,

Mike
Well....... I just throw my students on the floor...... if they get up ok then I keep them..... if not.... (we have a skip round the back of the dojo....... ) ;) :D

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Does SK allow throws/takedowns during randori? I think I've seen clips of your embu which included throws. ("Nutters!" was my first reaction. It looked pretty intense :cool: )

We don't disallow throws during randori.

We do have two types of randori..... Goho and Juho.
Goho generally includes only strikes/blocks, Juho only grappling.....
(I say generally, since randori can be a little "unpredictable"....)


Embu is probably the "coolest" way of demonstrating technique, basically it is FULL SPEED, FULL POWER, FULL COMMITTMENT, pre-arranged randori....... Both participants know the sequence, so it is performed full power and speed, if you make a mistake then you get hurt..... (been there, done that, got a flat nose courtesy of Richard Jarman sensei).
I have done a couple of embu's in competition, and it is a rush...... :cool: ;)


OH and "nutters" is far too gentle a term ;)

[Steve Williams]

Originally posted by Steve Williams
Thats about right.


Well....... I just throw my students on the floor...... if they get up ok then I keep them..... if not.... (we have a skip round the back of the dojo....... ) ;) :D

You might want to use the other info given......

I was having a "hard mad barstuard sensei moment" not a "caring compasionate sensei" moment ;) :D

[Tripitaka of AA]

Bipolar Sensei Disorder... another thread to be moved to "Budo and the Body"?

[Robert Liljeblad]

Hi David,

I agree with you and think that this could be a good way to discuss and learn more about SK.

I have asked questions in the past, may be to hard ones because I think that I do not get any good answers. And I know that there is some very experienced people reading this forum.

I think that a part of the problem is that some people think they know a lot and take the place of those who really know. So I have changed my strategy and are now asking the ones that I know know directly. Because I have a lot of SK related questions.

Regards,

Robert

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hi Robert,

In looking at the older posts on this forum, your questions were of the highest quality :), I don't think they were too hard, although maybe people were unsure of their own ability to answer.

As you can see, I don't have a problem with answering (even when I don't have the best answer), but this is often in the hope that it will prompt someone else to come and correct me. If I get it wrong, please correct me.

As for your new policy of "asking the ones who know", that has to be the best thing... but maybe we could share in that knowledge too :), post it here if you think it is OK.

Although, not everyone thinks that posting info on the Net is a good thing. So perhaps we keep it to a level where no harm can be done... so no 9th Dan uber-secret Szechuan Chicken recipes here please.

Actually, having the recipe for that chicken dish they serve at Hombu would be a GREEEAAAAT entry. Anyone got the details?

[Bodhisattva]

You can refer to Shorinji Kempo weapons as "Dokko den, Nyoi den and Kongo den" as for short sticks/blades, medium sticks, and long (walking) sticks as it comes in fukudoku hon.

You don't need to know that much on weapons, as they come used in later syllabi (and don't know if they are outside Japan). The most interesting part of that is that like other "weapons", they come straight from everyday use, as the monk used to help themselves walking with a stick, when someone attacked them, they had to find a way to defend themselves with what they had,evolving a tecnique that allowed them to defeat stronger and bigger enemies.

During Embu and demonstrations you can see defenses against knives and similar, but are defenses, not attacks.

Even uchi barai, has a position as you were holding a dokko in your hand, maybe it was used, who knows.

Anyway, i don't think this is the most enchanting part of our Practise. :)

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Steve Williams
I was having a "hard mad barstuard sensei moment" not a "caring compasionate sensei" moment.

Heh heh. I was going to give Mizuno Sensei's alternative method, which is a bit similar to Steve's. For those unfamiliar with it, as follows.

He performs about 50% of the motion of the nage, repeat but do 75%, then 120%, with a commentary like this "one, two, GO!... try to get your legs straighter. One more again. One, two, GO!". An alternative is to get your partner to perform the "one, two, GO!" part, while Sensei kindly whips your head down, so that tobi ukemi is the only option.

Seriously though, the main advice is "do nothing", i.e. keep a straight back and don't resist the nage. That way tobi ukemi isn't really a jump but the natural course of events. If it doesn't happen, then the nage has been performed in a way that makes it either impossible or unnecessary to fly.

[Tripitaka of AA]

... and now we know why it is a good idea to start a separate thread for each new topic. :D