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Dokuganryuu
8th October 2000, 00:24
How well does this flexible sword simulate combat? I know it reduces cost of kendo armor and the possible bruises of shinai, but are there any other pros? Thanks.

ChrisBeattie
18th October 2000, 01:24
Hi, this is my first post here.

I haven't actually sparred with shinai/armor or kenjuto, hopefully someone who has can give you a better response, maybe someone who tried goshinken at Western Regionals. (Boy, looks like you guys had fun, I should have given that a try.)

I think you've nailed the major advantages on the head. The kenjuto seems lighter than a bokken or iaito (again, I've never handled a shinai), so that's a disadvantage if you're going for a "realistic" experience, but an advantage perhaps for weaker practitioners like myself who might have a hard time holding up a shinai for a full sparring round.

One advantage I can think of with the kenjuto would be for the beginner who has never sparred before. I know I feel less intimidated trying sparring for the first time with a kenjuto than I would if my first time was going to be in full kendo armor with a shinai.

chrismoses
18th October 2000, 19:56
I sparred in the Western Tournament and that was the first time that I had used them. They have pros and cons. They really don't hurt much when hit, I got cracked in the head a few times and could feel it, but I wasn't going to need any medical attention. On the down side, I found them short, I'm used to using fukuro shinai (the leather bag around bamboo, not Kendo shinai) which are typically around 42-43". I haven't measured the Kenjuto but I would put it at closer to 37". My other complaint is that they are extrememly light. As I said before I do some sparring with fukuro shinai and they are much closer in weight to a bokken/ iaito. They also hurt when you get hit with one. In my opinion the fukuro shinai is a much better training weapon, if you are really interested in testing your technique. Without the weight of a real weapon, some real techniques are not possible and some less than realistic techniques are more likely to win.

Some examples of these situations would be the beat attack, where one forcefully takes the line by striking away the opponents blade and entering quickly. This just doesn't seem possible with the lightness of kenjuto. At the same time the weight also opens up attacks like the left handed kendo reach.

I was just reading an article by Ellis Amdur this morning where he was talking about training full contact in Araki Ryu with Kendo Shinai and only Men (helmet/ mask) for protection. The idea was that without the physical fear of pain, people will react differently. A shinai across the ribbs will probably not permanently damage you but it will probably leave a welt/ bruise and will hurt. There will be a fear of failure because the body knows that an opening will be met with real pain. I'm not saying that you should train like this all the time, but if the goal is to get a better impression of where you stand in your training, shinai training will give a more accurate assessment. I am painfully aware that I tend to leave my right thigh open, I know so because I still have a HUGE bruise from over a week ago...

KarlNygard
18th October 2000, 22:56
First off, in a tournament setting, I don't think you can realistically use something other then a soft/padded sword if you don't have full armor. Trying to use shinai with just men armor in a situation where you don't/can't entirely trust your opponent would probably hurt people. No, a shinai across the ribs isn't going to do much damage, but a good crack across the wrist can give you a good sprain or even break it.

This is different then training in the jodo with people you can trust, where a little more risk can be taken because you know the skill level of your opponent and have more trust for him/her. Again though, the kenjuto allow beginners to spar as well. When sparring with beginners, at times they do things that shouldn't be done such as hitting after the point, etc. Using padded swords even in the dojo will keep things safe at the expense of a more realistic duel.

I also feel that the kenjuto are on the light side, but I believe that is done to keep them safe. You could wrap a lead pipe in foam, but it can still break things when it hits you. It may be possible to add some weight to the handle end, but I don't know what that would do.

All IMHO
Karl Nygard
Ishi Yama Ryu

KarlNygard
18th October 2000, 22:59
I just remembered, I have a couple short .avi movies of sparring from the Westerm Regional tournament this weekend in Seattle I will try and post. They are not very long, but you will see that even though some techniques don't work with the kenjuto, the better swordsman will usually win anyway.

Karl Nygard
Ishi Yama Ryu

chrismoses
18th October 2000, 23:37
I agree that in a tournament setting that shinai and minimal to no armor is a bad idea. When really going at it I typically wear street hockey gloves, because it only takes a few whacks to not be able to hold the shinai very well. That kind of training I only do with people I really trust, and even then we usually give ourselves set rules. Typically we have one person attacking and one person defending, this minimizes the chances of dangerous accidents when both people are entering for an attack.

I was responding to the question of how well they simulate sword combat. In that respect as a TRAINING tool I think the shinai is a better choice. Do I think that the kenjuto are a bad training tool? NO. I think there are definitely things that can be learned from using them. Will I probably use mine when I don't feel like getting all bruised up for a couple weeks? Yup. Will I use them with some friends for bashing in the back yard? You bet. But as for how well they approximate real combat, I think they are so so. With the weight of a Yagyu (fukuru) shinai you must strike and parry with good form or you will be deflected or overpowered.

One last thing, I think its good to use different tools to study. That's why we use iaito for form and safety, live blade to cut and feel the difference in our technique, bokto to feel what hard contact with heavier weapons feels like, fukuro shinai/ kenjuto to play with the techniques and really ramp up training and see how fast you can move. Take care, practice safe!