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gmanry
19th November 2003, 00:53
This is long. Please read this whole post and think about what I am saying here.

You guys in the Naifanchi thread are venturing into some interesting areas that I have been considering for some time. Going back to my previous comments about the difference between traditional or classical approaches and MMA approaches.

The example of Mr. Oyata and the nose flicking is perfect and it is what finally clued me into a central theme. In MMA there is a particular expectation for combat that is built into the very style of fighting. Two guys assume very aggressive stances and close in on each other, there IS going to be a fight. This makes them very dangerous in terms of pure fight outcome. They expect it, they want it, some even need it (as was alluded to in the comment about fighters feeding off of adrenaline).

However, all the stuff that goes on looks like fight stuff, this is a jab, this is a cross, this is an Americana, this is a round kick, etc. This is a problem...mma fights can go on for 20 minutes +. Everyone knows the patterns.

The example with Mr. Oyata shows that sometimes the way to solve a problem is not with something that looks like it belongs in a fight. He let go of his model, me bad !!! sensei, you fall down, and used a little Mo Larry Curyl Fu on the guy. Isn't this what a lot of the kyusho is supposed to do, be hidden and disruptive? Only now, there ARE too many people who think these things are IT, they TRY to do the techniques, which is not how it works.

My Appendix Bomb Punch will drop anyone. :D

Heavy duty fighters are used to taking a ton of pain and damage and pressing on. They can do this largely because of certain conditioned reflexes of the autonomic nervous system and the endocrine system (adrenaline) based on their observation of some key elements in a fight (shoulder twitch, hip movement, ducking of the head). MMA fighter A knows what a jab looks like, even if it lands, chances are his peripheral vision caught it and allowed him to flinch slightly to mitigate it. It looked like a jab, I reacted as if it was a jab.

Why Kyusho was so important is that a lot of the techniques, when they were conceived DIDN'T look like anything. This is why Gracie JJ was so effective, not because of it's unbeatability, but because it was completely foreign. Nobody had a schematic as to what its movements were. It was dominant, largely because it did less rather than more. Now, everyone (not really, but for the sake of argument) has this reference and we see it does not dominate, it is not unbeatable.

Same for Judo over Jujutsu, same for the spin kick, same for anything. This does point to innovation (for you Hector), BUT by including it in a large sporting arena, it becomes standardized much more quickly. Innovation can't keep pace, eventually you will have a bunch of fighters who can fight really well with that standard model. Unfortunately the standard model will be isolated into its own environment more and more. This has already happened. Like Apple and the rest of the computer industry.

For example, a police officer who wants to cuff a perpetrator who is not complying with the stern command routine would be better off using techniques that DO NOT look confrontational. MMA probably isn't the best thing for the situation, even though a fight is imminent, the cop doesn't want a fight. If MMA is what the officer knows, then this collar is going to be much more difficult than it needs to be, because everthing he does will look like a fight to the perpetrator and to witnesses. It has nothing to do with whether or not he wins, he probably will.

What does a nose flick look like? I bet anyone can land one on someone else if they are non-chalant about it. Back to kyusho and traditional arts. The original purpose of most so called traditional MA was to kill or eliminate the opponent, typically movements were smooth, non-threatening, and often times didn't LOOK like anything. "What, are you waving at me, whack!" In the Bujinkan there are entire series of kata (koryu bujutsu style kata or 2 man kata) that are premised on approaching the mark, confusing the mark and getting his defenses down, then killing/incapacitating the mark. They are pretty comical sometimes when you eliminate the killing part.

This is where traditional arts should excel, but instead, they don't. They have attempted to be what MMA are, which is definitely a fight. Traditional arts are not about mano y mano, and they should stop trying to be, unless they want to adopt the standardized, and proven model- MMA. I don't want a fight, I want to win with as little muss and fuss as possible. In reality there is very little "warrior honor" in most traditional arts once the conflict is engaged. That should have all happened before hand, when you had the chance to think and walk away. Squaring off with your opponent for a round of fisticuffs is pretty stupid in real life situations.

So, MMA does produce the "best" fighters most efficiently, statistically speaking. A group of 6 month trained MMA fighters will probably mop a group of 6 month karate guys. However, because it is the standard model, it is its own worst enemy in terms of utility outside of its specialized environment, mano y mano, fight is gonna happen and nothing bad happens afterwards (due to money and state regulatory agencies). Many of its techniques are useful in isolation, but its best fighters train themselves out of ever being able to use it much beyond the cage. The TACTICS are wrong for most real world, bad guy intervention scenarios. I agree though, that tactics can be imported, this is learning, but then you are not really in the same model anymore. Antonio probably knows about this, as he was (is?) a cop. Round kick to the thigh can drop a guy, but you aren't going to hip fake him on it, that won't wash in the incident report. Why were you squaring off with him again, etc.

If traditional artists would stop worrying so much about MMA and just really look at what it is they bring to the table, then they would be able to just get on with it.

MMA guys need to stop fantasizing about taking out terrorists on planes and such because they are so bad, the reality is that kickboxing does not equate with controlling an armed suspect, nor does a lot of modern karate for that matter.

Philipino traditional arts, people who practice real Japanese sword fighting traditions, and of course people who work in small arm tactics (real Krav Maga, red gun training, etc.) are going to fair much better in close quarters against the armed bad guy, and many have and many have succeeded (some don't too :( ).

Didn't a famous kickboxer just get gunned down by a guy who hit his car? I am not meaning to make light of that man, my point is that he just took the wrong tactics into the wrong arena. Largely because he was conditioned to expect a fight, the other guy wasn't, there wasn't a fight.

What do we mean by best martial artists, really? What are we really talking about here? I tried to avoid pat definitions and answers and be objective, everything has its place and purpose, that is my point. Sorry it was so long.

hectokan
19th November 2003, 02:42
Glenn,You made some very "good" points.I applaud you for typing a well thought out thread.All of this while not putting down any other martial art or martial sport.This is a start in trying to understand each other.

Some of us on here have been following this "way of life" or
however it is that you want to define what it is that we do,for a very long time.I can honestly tell you that I don't train in the arts for any so called street altercation that probably won't or might never happen.This would be(IMO) a very shallow ideal in ones own training goal.The most important aspect for doing what you do is for enjoyment.It would be inconcievable to me that someone would train 20 to 30+ years for a street fight or altercation that would probably last all but 47 seconds and involve so many other factors that are way beyond are control.


Unless you work as a bouncer at a night club or happen to work as a police officer the reality is,that physical altercations are few and far between,unless you are a thug,thief or gangster and most martial arts tend to weed those guys out real fast over the years.


ofcourse,you could be at the wrong place at the wrong time but these things should really only happen once in a blue moon (unlike the movies)if guns and knives are involved sometimes luck plays a big factor in our survival.


I have a love/hate relationship with the word MMA(Mixed martial arts),since most of us have been training way before this concept or term was ever concieved.Thru the years,I have realized how unimportant words,names and styles really are and how emotional people sometimes get with a set of fight principles that are recognized as being different from the one we train or that goes by a different name.


Some people go as far as defending a particular style or fight principle just because some one interprets moves or fight patterns in a different light,Big deal.Let's get serious here guys,it just a tool to make us better human beings(not in all cases:nono:some wackos will always be)but we must always try to feel good about what we do and enjoy it to the fullest while we are doing it.Otherwise what's the point?a stupid little street altercation.


I think it really doesn't matter wether you train MMA or traditional martials arts,we would all probably be more than ready to defend ourselves under most normal conditions against most normal circumstances.It's the circumstances that we can't control that we should worry about.In my case I won't.

gmanry
19th November 2003, 04:22
Hector,

Thanks for your response and your patience with my babbling. First, I would never put any sincere style down. Even the ones I find questionable, I typically let them be (unless a friend is about to join one). It keeps them out of my hair. :D I've let my temper flair here, like many of us, and usually I regret it later.

I agree with you concerning the altercations, it is stupid. The two, no three, times I was faced with a guy(s) trying to hustle me on the street in Durham, NC (nasty little town), I was really able to just outwit them. In reality, had I been stupid enough to let it go to violence, they probably were armed. You never come out the same at the end of a knife fight, I have been told, and there is no win or lose, just blood and damage. A change in tactics is what saved me, physical technique was never a part of the equation.

My whole point is very similar to your mainstay, "It's all good." For me, and some of my friends can attest, "All same." You have to say it with a really bad impression of Toshiro Mifune though to get the full effect.

I have experienced a lot of different reflections of fighting, like most of us here. I definitely can't do it all, and I definitely know that I have a lot more to work out in this crazy thing called MA. However, I have come to the conclusion that the emotional side of MA training is severely neglected and that is what some traditional styles and some sport styles can bring to the table in different ways. This one thing changes EVERYTHING. Straight forward machismo doesn't cut it, and both sides of the debate are often flooded with that disease.

I think you are absolutely correct, just enjoy what you do, be really happy that we have this amazing thing called the internet to connect to people we would have normally never known, and KEEP TRAINING.

I really can't think of anything else to say. It's late, and I think I may actually get to sleep tonight. :cool: (insomnia off and on for about two weeks).

n2shotokai
19th November 2003, 05:42
Clearly, people study / practice for many reasons. Sport, competition, exercise, self-defense etc. While there is no best style or best martial artists, there are styles that are more suitable for certain applications. As mentioned earlier, squaring off with an opponent on the street would not be many peoples idea of ideal. Also people who train to kill and maim could possibly be better off to stay out of the local kumite tournament.

What I find becomes more clear with age and reading threads such as this, is the understanding all martial arts have their place. Understanding this allows for mutual respect even when arts are at opposite ends of philosophy. As long as the practioner is getting out of their art what they are seeking, it is a success.

Bustillo, A.
19th November 2003, 11:51
Originally posted by gmanry

For example, a police officer who wants to cuff a perpetrator who is not complying with the stern command routine would be better off using techniques that DO NOT look confrontational. MMA probably isn't the best thing for the situation, even though a fight is imminent, the cop doesn't want a fight. If MMA is what the officer knows, then this collar is going to be much more difficult than it needs to be, because everthing he does will look like a fight to the perpetrator and to witnesses. It has nothing to do with whether or not he wins, he probably will.


G-man,


With all due respect, a

Bustillo, A.
19th November 2003, 12:03
Originally posted by gmanry

For example, a police officer who wants to cuff a perpetrator who is not complying with the stern command routine would be better off using techniques that DO NOT look confrontational. MMA probably isn't the best thing for the situation, even though a fight is imminent, the cop doesn't want a fight. If MMA is what the officer knows, then this collar is going to be much more difficult than it needs to be, because everthing he does will look like a fight to the perpetrator and to witnesses. It has nothing to do with whether or not he wins, he probably will.


G-man,

With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about here.

For starters, the term 'Collar' ...for the most part it is only used in romantisized tv cop shows and movies.

Excel Glenn
19th November 2003, 13:58
Antonio,

For your experiences, you are right. I don't know. I do know what other police officers, who are martial artists, have told me. My comments (minus the romanticized lingo) reflect my interpretation of their stories. Basically, many of them relate that the tactics they use to subdue a bad guy are vastly removed from the attitude that usually comes from MMA (straight up fighting attitude), although some of the techniques are, of course, very useful. That was my point. I claim no personal expertise in the area of police work.

What I would like to see you post is your impressions of how MMA training, as is, is useful to police officers. Does it need to be modified in order to be useful to officers, or can they basically take what they learn say from a gym like the Lion's Den and just take that to work with them? My friends would say no, which was my point in the post above. If you have a different opinion, I am sincerely interested in hearing about it. I certainly meant no disrespect in my post to police officers or MMA practitioners, I was making a point about arenas of application.

Bustillo, A.
19th November 2003, 14:50
Originally posted by Excel Glenn
Antonio,

Basically, many of them relate that the tactics they use to subdue a bad guy are vastly removed from the attitude that usually comes from MMA (straight up fighting attitude), although some of the techniques are, of course, very useful....

What I would like to see you post is your impressions of how MMA training, as is, is useful to police officers. Does it need to be modified in order to be useful to officers, or can they basically take what they learn say from a gym like the Lion's Den and just take that to work with them? My friends would say no, which was my point in the post above. If you have a different opinion, I am sincerely interested in hearing about it.


You were in no way disrepectful. No need for you to apologize.

Your question about practical police tactics using MMA techniques.

It is more a question of which 'strategy' is best for the situation--level of threat.

Needless to say, not all. If the officer and subject fell, for whatever reason during the struggle, some of the grappling would come in handy. Some takedownas too. (again, depending on the situation) However, the terrain must be taken into account. Grasss no problem. A full dive where an officer throws his knee down on the pavement to take a person down, no. Yet, most striking methods of MMA, Muay thai, boxng and karate, yes.

We could go on and on giving examples. But as to what methods are far removed for police officers? Top of the list of the impractical, and ridiculous, for police are believing in fairy tale illusions like dropping a tough, btute hardcore felon with a toe kick to the thigh and pressure point Oyata tricks.
MMA 'type training' would help more so.

Either way, in general, quality, practical self-defense training in the police academy is lacking and need revamping.

Harry Cook
19th November 2003, 15:18
Gentlemen, you might find two articles in the current (Oct/Nov. issue 21) issue of Close Quarter Combat Magazine of relevance in this discussion:-
1. "Glove to Fist! Changing Your Style When the Gloves Come Off" - Antonio Graceffo: a really interesting account of the differences between gloved and bare-fist fighting, based on the author's own experience.
2. "Force Under Pressure: Why Cops Die: Contributions or Compromise to Officers Safety" Lawrence N. Blum, PhD. An analysis of why some police officers get killed/hurt when confronting offenders. The result of the study (based on attacks on Californian policemen between 1990-1994) was that the policeman was often too friendly to everyone, only used minimum force as a last resort, disregarded SOPs when arresting suspects etc etc.
From my perspective both articles are interesting in that they tend to confirm and explain the need for many of the attitudes, theories etc etc which I would think of as being traditional, ie zanshin, one blow finish/"kill", makiwara etc etc.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Excel Glenn
19th November 2003, 15:19
Either way, in general, quality, practical self-defense training in the police academies is lacking and need revamping.

This is the common thing that you and all of my friends in law enforcement have said. In 1988, I was fortunate to have been able to participate in an ASP class given by an experienced tactical instructor. Unfortunately, when he and I started talking about defensive tactics for LEOs, I was surprised at some of the stuff he didn't know about straight forward combatives.

I agree with you about the Appendix Bomb Punch approach. However, I think the reason why so much of that doesn't work well, is that they are treated like a jab, which is a different type of animal, er technique...

A hair grab when you can see it coming is not nearly as effective as when you can't see it coming. If I go to POKE you in the eye, you will naturally defend with the Curly maneuver (who wouldn't). However, one of the funniest things I had executed on me was an instructor who just so non-chalantly just put his finger in my eye. Man, nothing recognizable to my trained reflexes. This is why the inverted Americana (sit down armbar) was so effective in UFC at first, "what this guy is just hanging upside down on my arm, well I'll just get up and crush him, aAAAHHHHHHH!!!!" They never even knew something was being done. However, that sort of smoothness takes hours and hours (years maybe) of practice, bringing us back to the problem of training officers with X hours of defensive tactics.

I would agree that techniques from MMA are able to be applied in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the training format, and the psychological training atmosphere has to be very different for different arenas. You know this, so do most of us, yet we tend to hear so much about "the best." Such a mistake.

Thanks for the reply. It really does match up with what I was trying to say, I just didn't say it well enough. One thing that I have noticed in working with law enforcement people is the need for gross motor techniques over highly complex things. Basic Judo throws (Osoto gari for example), simple body evasions for weapon retention, etc. MMA and traditional arts can fall flat if the instructor is teaching skills that are too complex.

I know this last question varies alot, but you found striking arts to be very useful? What was the fallout from deciding to use those techniques. It seems to me that review boards would see those techniques as being higher in force. I don't always agree with that, as a throw can cause a lot of trauma, but the view of the public and attorneys is different. This is an area of interest to me. I can read the rules and laws, but real experience is more useful and interesting.

Bustillo, A.
19th November 2003, 16:18
Originally posted by Excel Glenn


I know this last question varies alot, but you found striking arts to be very useful? What was the fallout from deciding to use those techniques. It seems to me that review boards would see those techniques as being higher in force. I don't always agree with that, as a throw can cause a lot of trauma, but the view of the public and attorneys is different. This is an area of interest to me. I can read the rules and laws, but real experience is more useful and interesting.

Fall out from review boards...plenty. Monday morning quaterbacking.
In many cases THAT is the problem. Politicians and Reviews boards are more concerned with public perception rather than officer safety.
Many, not all, Police officers are too worried about getting in trouble that they try to apply the aikido mindset appraoch of 'don't hit, just redirect his force in order to make sure not to hurt him tactics' and then get their head handed to them.

In a serious pinch, you can't have the attitude of "oh let me just poke a nerve here to disrupt and incapicitate him." You'd better rely on something else.

hectokan
19th November 2003, 17:02
I am not saying it has all the answers but the single most important thing that MMA type training brings to the table is live resistence.In the judo school were I train,which is actualy part of a police academy program,we have metro police officers & correction officers training and staying on with the judo program well after the police academy is over with.


The stories that I am constantly bombarded with from time to time range from the serious to the ridiculous and everything inbetween.The police academy runs next door to our judo program and after 6 weeks of training most officers(I think) are not required to continue training after the academy is completed.

I know of many officers over the years that do continue training and from speaking to them,they honestly relate how live resistence type training has helped them endure most live situations.

In the academy they teach techs that have been proven to be sucessful in past encounters and by the look of some of them they might work while others may not.One thing is for sure,inorder to make some of the police applications work for real under a live circumstance,long and hard live resistence training is a must.This is were some of the martial sport disciplines associated with MMA can help out.

The job of a police officer or even a bouncer at a club is to subdue a person not to inflict dammage,ofcourse this will not work in all cases:nono:)all while restraining your suspect.

One of the main reasons why police brutality has been on the rise over the years aside from the stress relative issues and some isolated racial incidents is that most officers do not or don't train with live resistence.

This lack of live resistence training would make restraining a suspect without inflicting pain even that much harder for the non properly trained officer.

MMA type resistence training,specifically the grappling portion of MMA is being looked at and even taken up by many different police academies in different cities around the country.

ttt for MMA

Steve Williams
19th November 2003, 17:05
Exel Glen, please follow the rules:
Please sign your posts with your full name

And were you not here before with another username??

Excel Glenn
19th November 2003, 22:59
Antonio,

Thanks for the honest answers. I can definitely understand how MMQB is a problem. I sat on a "blue ribbon" panel on sexual assault on campus at Washington State University. It was a big donut party basically.

When those of us who were really concerned about the problem would try to steer the group towards doing a survey on the subject or improving something concrete, it was always CF to see who could dive under the table first or come up with the reason why we couldn't do that. Politics suck. That semester we had 8 assaults on campus before the semester even began. So, I can understand your frustration by proxy. Members of the panel even suggested that the SD course I taught (based on Model Mugging, and very intense) was a bad idea because it endangered the women more. Can anyone say 1950's thinking?

I can see where the hesitation and the desire to be a nice guy can get an officer hurt. Recently I have been considering joining the force here in Sheridan where I-90 is the main meth corridor through this part of the country. Lots of drug arrests here in the middle of nowhere, not your college bongaloids either. This is why I am interested in this topic, as it may become very real for me. It obviously has been for you.

Hector,

I really can't argue with your assessment. Stress based training in conjunction with guided technical training, has been shown to be very effective in combatives, SD, etc. I saw it with my students! My wife and I were almost hospitalized a couple of times, and that was through the protective equipment we wore as "muggers."

Some arts, do really make such training difficult, but with modern materials, that is changing. The close range, in your face stress is hard to overcome if you have no experience with it. Making one's first experiences difficult, yet ultimately safe is the logical choice. This is why the military spends lots of money on simulations.
Same with SWAT and other special tactics groups.

Some traditionalists do live in a fantasy land. So do some modern sports fighters. Obviously the key is to know when you have hit your limit, find an expert in the new area and get to it.

Goju Man
20th November 2003, 00:57
Glenn, first off let me congradulate you on NOT taking yourself TOO seriously. When I saw EXCEL GLENN I cracked up thinking back to the formula of action vs reaction. Too many people take themselves way too seriously. ;)
I would like to say that this is a great thread by you with exellent observations, and likewise posts by our other members. Many people have a misunderstanding of the term mixed martial artist. MMA is not a style per se, it is a BLENDING of diferent arts to cover the different ranges of combat. You could be a karate ka with a black belt in judo and be considered a mixed martial artist. Boxing and wrestling, kickboxing and bjj, boxing and wrestling or submission wrestling, karate and sambo, etc. MMA deals with the BLENDING of the ranges of combat. In MMA, the common denominator is live resistance training. There's not a lot of kata going on because the actions are being practised instead with a resisting partner. If you don't have this, and say you are a Police Officer trying to subdue an opponent with an arm lock, he resists and you don't know how to handle it or what to do because your partner has always been a willing one.

In our bjj class, for example, we do grip fighting. This is a standup drill where the two are fighting for superior grip of the jacket. (btw this is done in some judo schools also) I've done that drill where standing arm locks and wrist locks are allowed. This is as close to real as you can get without the actual suspect. You would be much better equiped for the street than otherwise. (not saying that any other way is useless)

Your observation about the two people with six months in MMA vs another art holds true also IMO. In another thread, I pointed out that in the King of The Cage, there is actually a karate guy who has won some fights WITH karate. I give this guy credit for stepping in the ring. But consider this part of the situation. This guy probably has at least twice the time doing karate than the guys he has defeated, not to mention fighting in tournaments. He probably won't win a title at that level, although it is considered entry level mma. When he does take on an opponent with comparable experience, I don't think he'll win. But I give this guy KUDOS for doing it and the joe blow on the street had better heed this guy. ;)

Excel Glenn
20th November 2003, 01:36
Manny,

Well, it stuck with me too. I'd like to think it has a double meaning ;), although these days, I am not feeling too excel-lent. (Or is that egg-celent for all you Batman/Vincent Price fans out there.)

Anyway, it is true that eventually you have to get on the mat, or at least do some very serious structured drills. I agree that if you don't put it through the wringer at some point, forget it. In my own practice, I haven't done much resistance training in the last year and a half. Some meiocre judo randori (mine is rusty, my opponents were horrible), a little bit of foot tag and ground work with my wife. I am stuck in a entire county of 20,000 people. I really like it here, but for MA it is slow going. By January I hope to have a group. In the Bujinkan there isn't a lot of Randori, but it varies from instructor to instructor. I am a big fan of structured free drills, which get you to resistance training without it becoming just a thumping match. So, I just work on basics, movement drills, technical stuff, etc. and try to draw on my body memory of the feeling of live training. Went to a seminar in SD and could still take full ukemi on concrete without too much trouble, and my movement was ok with a partner, not exactly as I would like it, but...it never quite is.

Grip fighting is interesting, because it is from the touch and get go. Sometimes in matches it looks like slap fighting, typically because of the excitement and adrenaline I would think. However, it is the establishment of your first position, and that can (really should) be all it takes.

More to say later, gotta go hit the ski machine...cross country skiing season is almost here.

Goju Man
20th November 2003, 10:23
When we talk about the "flicking" Oyata did and adrenaline, or even the surprise part of it, a class room and street altercation have two totally different mind sets. In the class, when his student is not responsive, he does something you never would expect, thus breaking his concentration. In a street confrontation, your concentration would probably not break until it's over. When the adrenaline's pumping, I think you can forget the nose flick. Could you imagine back in the early UFC Royce Gracie trying to flick Kimos' nose?:D

CEB
20th November 2003, 12:14
Grip Fighting, I mixed feelings on that. When I first learned Judo two men would just come out and hook up and then Judo would start. Now Judo matches looked like girlie fights with all this grips fighting but I understand why its necessary. The rules they put in place about disenagement really make your first grip important plus grip advantage is important. I just hate to see Judo look like a cat fight between a couple of !!!!!!!.

Oyata thing not a conflict whatsoever. Just an example of breaking someones ironshirt concentration in a dojo envirnoment. It was an answer to a question.

We must all learn to unleash the tiger (http://sardonia.org/karate/index.html)

Excel Glenn
20th November 2003, 16:41
Manny,

A nose flick would probably be insufficient against Kimo. Turning green and smacking him with a bus would probably be required.

However, it does illustrate a point. In Durham, NC my wife and I were approached by a man for money. He came in at our blind angle from the rear and then announced himself in the dark shadows. My wife and I immediately split, made distance and put up our hands in the typical Model Mugging ready mode. It is non-threating, but provides most of the cover of a fighting stance, and is similar to some Muay Thai distance stances and Bujinkans Hoko no Kamae, so it flows well. Palms out arms up, it says don't come any closer, but the body language is more relaxed.

He did not expect this, so he played the friendly guy routine, made up his sob story about needing bus money, etc. Then hid his left hand under his right arm pit and reached out his right hand to offer a hand shake. All I saw was his hand under his arm pit, where he probably had a shank or a small knife.

My wife had already moved to his blind spot, which was an error on his part, he had totally forgotten about her. That is our plan for these situations, I keep the guy busy, she gets in a position to either fight or run for assistance. I become the primary target.

So, I tell him, "Sorry, I can't shake your hand." He plays the hurt guy routine, "ain't gonna happen!" He departs, sort of startles when he notices my wife in her place.

The moral is, what we did was not in his "fight" repetoire, and he tried desperately to get us into his fight repetoire (with the hand shake). What we did was really not threatening, just hands up sort of pleading, hey leave us alone. We did keep distance and moved when he moved, but it wasn't like any type of quick dodgy footwork, just smooth stepping. He didn't like it, of course, but it wasn't because we challenged him, we disengaged and became something he was unfamiliar with in his thug encyclopedia.

The nose flick is the same principle, but you might have to use something more substantial. With most bad guys (ok, not Kimo, but I live in Sheridan, WY), and I have met and played with a few, they want things to go down a particular script, otherwise you are not a good target. By looking like you are going to fight, hackles up, hard look in the eyes, you actually increase your chances of having to, in a majority of situations. Some situations ARE hopeless and you better be able to fight. I will grant you that without argument. However, most of the time, in my experience, and my students' experience, the chameleon has a better chance than the alley cat.

Excel Glenn
20th November 2003, 16:52
Ed,

That is what I thought too, I was always taught to get to it in my Judo practice. I then saw tapes of shiai with the grips fighting. I thought the same thing.

However, the pressure of time constraints, desire to win the competition, and the limitations all play into that. If then allowed open hand slaps like sumo, that would change it quick. I like watching sumo more than Judo now. Striking changes a lot in grappling for many people. As we have seen over the years. Competition is good for pressure training, bad in that it gets you into a particular mindset that is hard to break when you switch arenas. That intensity sets that program in very deeply.

Going from TKD to Kyokushin and then trying to enter the TKD state championships. I was fouling my opponent left and right. Obviously I didn't place. I was grabbing, threw a knee strike, etc. It took me 2 months just to get used to kicking people in the legs. Can't undo that in a few weeks.

I wonder if a lot of people get their fingers broken during that grip fighting stage. It seems likely to me, because it is so high pressure. When I have been able to do it (rare), we didn't have that pressure on us, and we were anxious just to get to it.

CEB
20th November 2003, 17:06
Originally posted by Excel Glenn
...
I wonder if a lot of people get their fingers broken during that grip fighting stage. It seems likely to me, because it is so high pressure. When I have been able to do it (rare), we didn't have that pressure on us, and we were anxious just to get to it.

No I don't think it happens a alot. Broken fingers have always happened once in a while usually if someone gets their finger caught in the gi after locking in to a tight grip. Broken toes seem to be a bigger problem than broken fingers. Collar bone breaks occur sometimes on the thin outside portion of the collar bone due to compression fractures when someone fall on there shoulder. There are lots of possibilities for little freak accidents but overall I would say it is safer than playing soccer. My boy has accidently injured a lot more people on the soccer field than in Judo.

Excel Glenn
20th November 2003, 17:32
Yeah,

We used to go round n' round with the athletic department about safety in MA practice. Here are a bunch of educated sports specialists who refused to look at the statistics. MA practice is usually ranked below 10th on the list. Last I looked, softball was #1, but that was a while ago. Basketball has a ton of dislocations, and concussions.

I have seen the broken collar bone thing in Judo and other ukemi, not fun. I have jammed and twisted a few fingers in the gi, blood vessel ruptures just hurt way too much for the size of the injury.

MA always has this perception of being so violent and dangerous. Now, I did see a guy get killed in a TKD tournament in St. Petersburg in 1984 or 1985. It was listed in Black Belt magazine that year, small article. This was the cause of mandatory headgear in WTF/USTU style competition.

Given the ridiculous levels of abuse I have put my body through, (like all of us here), I am surprisingly free of serious injury at 33 years of age (knocks on head). I have some cartilage in my right knee that gets stuck if I don't keep up with fitness, and my left rotator cuff is a little stiff, but no broken bones, not even a full out broken nose in all that time (big as a beak though, very tough nose I think).

I have seen, delivered to others by my sparring partners, broken sinuses and noses, fractured wrists and arms, a severed achilles tendon (didn't see this one, was told about it by the poor guy), a death, etc. So, I feel very, very, very fortunate. I am pretty sure I will get hit by a meteor while at something like a chicken plucking/elvis karaoke festival to make up for all the good luck.

Goju Man
20th November 2003, 20:30
Glenn, I'm glad you and your wife are prepared and have strategies like the one you described. But the nose flicking is already in the combat part of the equation. You obviously were able to avoid that part of it. But Oyata was launching a technique which proved un effective. The guy thinks Oyata can't pull it off and is never expecting that move. In a fight, that opportunity is not likely to present itself that way. Even if you flick his nose, it isn't going to matter because the guy will be hitting you at the same time. That being said, if he's anticipating getting hit, a flick on the nose is not even a factor for him. I think Oyata should be trying to hit his opponent rather than flick his nose.

Ed, that's a great web site! I wonder if he does any summer camps in VA.:D

CEB
20th November 2003, 21:51
Originally posted by Goju Man
...But Oyata was launching a technique which proved un effective. ...

No he wasn't. It wasn't a fight. I shouldn't have shared the story. Its going way out of context. They were playing around with tricks. No one is going to flick anybody's nose in a fight unless somebody has a really bad booger.


Hit hard enough whole body becomes a vital point

Goju Man
20th November 2003, 23:03
Originally posted by CEB
No he wasn't. It wasn't a fight. I shouldn't have shared the story. Its going way out of context. They were playing around with tricks. No one is going to flick anybody's nose in a fight unless somebody has a really bad booger.
That would certainly distract me!:D