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John Lindsey
19th November 2003, 06:48
In another thread we were discussing how much we paid for rank fees. It brought to mind a visit I had once in Japan with a lady who was a well respected calligrapher. She was actually the school teacher of my teacher, and must have been 80 years old. During an impromptu tour of her home, she showed us her various works and the discussion gravitated to her teacher. She mentioned that her various menkyo were quite expensive, but she added “that is the Japanese way.” She also showed us a hanging scroll which featured calligraphy from her late teacher. Her teacher just gave it to her one day, and she had to pay a lot of money in return. She did not ask for it, but had to accept it and write a check. But, she was not trying to bad mouth her teacher at all. She just laughed about it and said again: “Japanese way.”


Anyone have similar experiences?

Jock Armstrong
20th November 2003, 06:22
Yep! Theres no such thing as a free "ranchi" over here. Certification is so "in culture" that theres a kind of snobbery about it. The more you charge, the better the certificate is. MA schools are the same [with a few notable exceptions]. People here would rather pay heaps, delude themselves that they are better at something than somebody else on that basis only.

Kobe
4th December 2003, 07:12
I think is normal, in a country where the most important thing is money and the second most important is.......money, you can guess.
The most ancient martial art in Japan is yenjutsu, but the world is plenty of people willing to pay whatever the sensei ask for.

shinobi77
4th December 2003, 07:32
Not to get off topic, but i just thought i would contribute my thoughts.


While i have yet to pay anything aside from a $40 testing fee (kyu rank) and $40 yearly honbu fee, i still (even though i'm a grad student and i'm well aware that it will only drastically increase) find that the price is nothing.

I would pay ANYTHING to get where i wanted in life. Money, food, clothing...whatever. While i suppose that rank is important in one way or another...what i see is that i'm paying to get more. As far as i'm concerned i will never be able to get enough, so if it takes me $1,000 to get my hands on a rank, book, lecture, or session that i might hold dear to my heart for the rest of my life i won't even blink. Personally i think it's another means of separation. Some people will keep going, and others will not.

We all find what we're looking for one way or another.

Money is meant to be spent, and i'm fortunate enough to be able to think that I believe that i couldn't spend it on anything better than budo (i know that sounds "sacrilegious", but hopefully my point can be understood).

I know that i'm not right, and probably not even culturally correct. BUT I do love what i learn, and to me it is priceless.

Gambatte,

Jed Konopka

Kobe
4th December 2003, 07:47
Nothing wrong with your statement, fortunately most of ebudokas like you or me live in a free country.
But there is the common sense. I understand that a dojo is also or it can be also a business, and I agree to pay fees for lessons, curse, seminars, ranks and so on, but I will never pay an amount that I think is out of this world. Is a question of common sense and ethics.
Cause, if someone is charging 1000 $ (or more)for a rank is plain and just CHEATING. If you think that amount is reasonable, good for you and kep on going, your sensei will be soooo happy.

shinobi77
4th December 2003, 08:20
I think that common sense is subjective, as are, of course, ethics. I am VERY happy i'm fortunate enough to make the types of choices I do. It's nice to be able to walk out my door and go to training w/o fear of being bombed, or starving, or any other variety of negatives that are definitely there.

As for the fact that it's cheating, i'm not so sure it is. Maybe so. I don't live in Japan (and I'm not a historian), so i'm really not sure how all the ryuha have or had treated "training fees". Personally, I know that everything we put into our dojo monetarily goes into upkeep, training supplies and the variety of other costs that go into realizing budo. I know that we recently had a similar thread on dojo upkeep so we can all reference that for information on the different statewide, if not nationwide expenses.

Not to be mistaken, i completely agree that sometimes things are pretty pricey. I think most people would have a hard time swallowing a $100 kyu rank, let alone $1000. I figure the $40 a test i've payed so far is not so bad. I wonder how much fiscal and societal obligation is considered in personal development when a person reaches higher dan levels though...not so much in the fact that you need to pay X, but that by this point in your life societal contribution might tie in to your development. People drop a grand on TV's these days. I couldn't (my 19'' from '93 still treats me well), but i guess i just don't see a problem if what i'm giving isn't stuffing wallets.

We just added over 2000 sq ft to our dojo so i'm satisfied (completely) with my dues, especially since they're not going up!!

And,

Don't get me wrong. I don't support the idea of people extorting money in the name of budo. That is definitely wrong. I think the issue that we are all adressing is that some schools say paying is NOT appropriate, and others see no issue with it (and of course there is grey inbetween). I doubt that we will see anyone come forward with documentation showing that every ryuha was in agreeance over this matter.

I hope i'm using "ryuha" appropriately...it's been a few since i've been involved in japanese language on a daily basis :)

Anyway, undoubtedly this is an issue that will not be resolved on a forum. For the most part i just try to take away as many opinions as i can so that if i have the opportunity to open my own dojo some day i'll be informed enough to make appropriate decisions.

Gambatte,
Jed Konopka

Cody
4th December 2003, 08:39
Originally posted by Kobe
I think is normal, in a country where the most important thing is money and the second most important is.......money, you can guess.
The most ancient martial art in Japan is yenjutsu, but the world is plenty of people willing to pay whatever the sensei ask for.

How long does it take to be "ancient"?

Capitalism is a relatively young "tradition", up until Tokugawa period, samurai is the most respected class, and their salary is paid by bails of rice. Merchants were the lowest of class, those were the people dealing with money. In the good old days, cadet samurai receive patronage and training and promotions through many ways of "payment", homosexual sexual service to the senior ranking samurai being one of them.

Sure, money is a huge part of contemporary Japanese culture. But to say yenjutsu is the most ancient MA in Japan is very far off.

-Cody

Mekugi
4th December 2003, 09:04
Originally posted by John Lindsey
She did not ask for it, but had to accept it and write a check. But, she was not trying to bad mouth her teacher at all. She just laughed about it and said again: “Japanese way.”

How did she know how much to pay?

-R

Kobe
4th December 2003, 10:08
Originally posted by Cody
How long does it take to be "ancient"?

Capitalism is a relatively young "tradition", up until Tokugawa period, samurai is the most respected class, and their salary is paid by bails of rice. Merchants were the lowest of class, those were the people dealing with money. In the good old days, cadet samurai receive patronage and training and promotions through many ways of "payment", homosexual sexual service to the senior ranking samurai being one of them.

Sure, money is a huge part of contemporary Japanese culture. But to say yenjutsu is the most ancient MA in Japan is very far off.

-Cody

I´m terribly sorry you did not understand the irony. I mean that yenjutsu is a very normal practice since long time ago, without going into history details.
BTW I also enjoyed "Male Colors", a very interesting book.

Mekugi
4th December 2003, 10:21
Ummm..I hate to disagree with you here, but capitalism is the "natural" way of things in business/trade. That is to say, if there were no rules governing trade....like in socialism or communism, it would be capitalism. Payments in rice, hay, salt, pretty shiny shells are all part of capitalism.

It has nothing to do with printed money or coins.

Ohh this is kewl here!

History of Money in Japan (http://www.imes.boj.or.jp/cm/english_htmls/history.htm)
-Russ


Originally posted by Cody
How long does it take to be "ancient"?

Capitalism is a relatively young "tradition", up until Tokugawa period, samurai is the most respected class, and their salary is paid by bails of rice. Merchants were the lowest of class, those were the people dealing with money. In the good old days, cadet samurai receive patronage and training and promotions through many ways of "payment", homosexual sexual service to the senior ranking samurai being one of them.

Sure, money is a huge part of contemporary Japanese culture. But to say yenjutsu is the most ancient MA in Japan is very far off.

-Cody

Cody
4th December 2003, 10:41
I see what you guys mean now, sorry I didn't read the irony.

Russ, I agree with what you said, and you are certainly welcome to disagree with me. Just a few words in my defense, when I said "capitalism", I meant to refer to a society's dependance on currency and mass consumptions to sustain its institutions and the power to govern the people. IMHO, Japanese society has not always been dependant on compulsive mass consumption; at least from my very limited understanding of Japanese history, many moons ago, in pre-colonial period, I like to think obligations and relations and human emotions (ninjo and giri) were the frame that sustained and justified the social structure and formed the people's identities, and not production/ consumption modes.

Martyn van Halm
4th December 2003, 17:57
I understand that in aikido, each grade is consistently more expensive than the next - I believe my aikido instructor had to pay over a thousand dollars for his godan rank.

I was tested for kirikami shoden [equal to shodan] by Hatakeyama Goro sensei. This grading took part at the end of a seminar. Those were tested were given certificates that were handwritten by Hatakeyama sensei. There was no fee for testing. There was no fee for rank. Everyone who received a grade certificate paid a nominal amount to pay for the expenses - paper and ink - that came to about 10 USD per person.

Not all Japanese are alike, I guess.

Mekugi
5th December 2003, 02:21
OK I agree with that, now that I understand further what you were saying.

One point I would raise here is that there was a standard of control issued to Japanese peoples in the form of a cast System in the "old government" of Japan.

That is, a farmer was on the high level of the scale, then bushi, then the lowly merchant. In reality, you can turn that "scale" upside down because merchants were the driving force in Japanese society "in reality". Even when the powers that were banned trade with other countries, merchants always found a way to have their peice of the pie....in reality that just closed the market to a select few and made them rich. Capitalism in it's greatest and most powerful form AKA a monopoly.

While a person of high rank may have had several koku of land, being potentially fertile for crops and stocked with reliable and weathered farmers to tend it, ultimately it was the merchant that made the profit for the landowner and with their resources/influences. Maybe I have a skewed way of looking at the history of Japan financially, but it seems to be that way in my view. Even when infighting ravaged Japan, it was the merchant that kept the war going, that supplied the troops and made a profit for the "lord" and serfs.

When you move further up the scale and look at things today, you see that the same thing happened with Mitsubishi, which started out as a boat company, I beleive. Now they have their fingers in every piece of pie via their name. Mitsubishi bank, mitsunishi motors, electronics- you name it they probably do it. I even work with Mistubishi people here in Yokkaichi occasionally.

Anyway, this is way off topic.

I still want to know how the above mentioned shodoka knew how much to pay.

I have a sister in law that has her menkyo in a very old shodo style and she never encountered this type of thing....being an artist in calligraphy is a rough life, and anyone looking to do it needs to consider that money will not be a part of it without endless work. This seemed rather strange to me that this type of thing would happen considering that....maybe it's the part of Japan I am living in or the tradition of that school? Maybe I am blind to it? Maybe that was just her teachers way of doing things?

-Russ



Originally posted by Cody
I see what you guys mean now, sorry I didn't read the irony.

Russ, I agree with what you said, and you are certainly welcome to disagree with me. Just a few words in my defense, when I said "capitalism", I meant to refer to a society's dependance on currency and mass consumptions to sustain its institutions and the power to govern the people. IMHO, Japanese society has not always been dependant on compulsive mass consumption; at least from my very limited understanding of Japanese history, many moons ago, in pre-colonial period, I like to think obligations and relations and human emotions (ninjo and giri) were the frame that sustained and justified the social structure and formed the people's identities, and not production/ consumption modes.