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Shorite
20th November 2003, 03:25
I am reading the book IAI by Darrell Craig, and in it is this kata. I was wondering why, after the warding off move and the downward cut, you change to reverse grip and then sheath your sword?
It just seems wierd to me, but in no way am I knowledgable on Iaido, so thats why I am asking you.

A. Bakken
20th November 2003, 04:02
I don't know the definite answer, but I'd assume it has something to do with the type of chiburi used (the name of which escapes me at the moment). The reverse grip is in preparation for noto (which is called gyaku-te noto).

I've wondered about a simililar "problem" with the Seitei kata, namely, why is it that sometimes one uses o-chiburi (e.g. Mae), whereas other times -- in similar positions -- it should be yoko-chiburi (e.g. Tsuka-ate, Morote-tsuki). The best answer I have found so far (a purely speculative one, mind you), is that the style of chiburi has followed the kata from the ryu from whence it originated. I imagine that these stylistic traits are more consistent within a ryu than they are in the infamously bastardized Seitei set... ;)

Brian Owens
20th November 2003, 08:46
Originally posted by Shorite
I was wondering why, after the warding off move and the downward cut, you change to reverse grip and then sheath your sword?
It just seems wierd to me...
It is a rather unusual way to perform an seemingly simple thing like re-sheathing the sword (noto). In some schools this method is only used in a few kata/waza, in others (TSKSR comes to mind) it is seen frequently.

As for "why" -- ASK YOUR SENSEI! :D


Originally posted by A. Bakken
I don't know the definite answer, but I'd assume it has something to do with the type of chiburi used (the name of which escapes me at the moment).
chi no shizuku o otosu?



Originally posted by A. Bakken
I've wondered about a simililar "problem" with the Seitei kata, namely, why is it that sometimes one uses o-chiburi (e.g. Mae), whereas other times -- in similar positions -- it should be yoko-chiburi (e.g. Tsuka-ate, Morote-tsuki). The best answer I have found so far (a purely speculative one, mind you), is that the style of chiburi has followed the kata from the ryu from whence it originated.
That is my understanding as well.

Shorite
20th November 2003, 14:18
The only problem is I'm not an Iai student at a dojo, so I guess its Sensei Darrell Craig from now on. :)
How many different ways (ryu?) are there of chiburi? Since it seems like a pretty basic move, I presume there isn't one for every skool.

gendzwil
20th November 2003, 15:30
Each ryu has it's own chiburi and noto, and often in several flavours. Zen Ken Ren shows a few different ones, that's all. None of the chiburi are overly useful for cleaning the blade - to do that, you need to wipe it with a cloth. I'm not entirely sure of the reason behind each noto - for some of them I suspect it's "because that's the way we do it".

Chidokan
20th November 2003, 17:50
the noto reflects cleaning the blade with a cloth...if you have your old 'workclothes' hakama on you can use that...lets face it a pair of old hakama you can wash, but to repolish a rusty blade costs you a lot of cash!:D Oh yes, the noto looks 'flash' as well! :D

Seitei iai...a style developed by a comittee. Remember the old joke, "you know what you get when you design an animal by comittee.. a camel". Say no more.;)

socho
20th November 2003, 17:51
Nakamura ryu has eight different noto - officially, anyway. Nine, actually, since Nakamura-sensei had his own variation of one. And, oddly enough, none of the eight include the MJER-style o-chiburi or yoko-chiburi. (And no thanks, I'm not going to describe each of them :) )

Dave

ulvulv
20th November 2003, 18:10
Originally posted by Chidokan
the noto reflects cleaning the blade with a cloth...if you have your old 'workclothes' hakama on you can use that...lets face it a pair of old hakama you can wash, but to repolish a rusty blade costs you a lot of cash!:D Oh yes, the noto looks 'flash' as well! :D

Seitei iai...a style developed by a comittee. Remember the old joke, "you know what you get when you design an animal by comittee.. a camel". Say no more.;)

Living in a desert, owning a camel is quite a treasure.

Isnt the term "chinugui" used for the ukenagashi-noto?
As for the reversing of the grip. After you have "wiped" off the blade on your right, and place it with both arms stretched out slightly to your left, blade resting on your right knee: What is the shortest way to noto? If you do not reverse the grip, you have to rotate the sword. If you just reverse the grip on the right hand, the sword has to travel only a very short distance. The bastard camel has its own way of moving. Join the rhythm.

A.J. Bryant
20th November 2003, 18:24
I was always told by my teachers that chiburi was either symbolic for wiping the blade, used as an en-guarde position or as a quick defensive cut should your opponent be playing 'possum'... Hasso & Jodan-chiburi demonstrate this pretty clearly.

Anyway, the chiburi we see today are probably more a result of the Tokogawa era than anything else. Shindo Munen-ryu and Hokushin Itto-ryu have the most elaborate that I've seen... I actually just completed a rather lengthy article on about 30 different chiburi. When it's online, I'll post a link if anyone is interested.

Regards,

Tom D
21st November 2003, 01:52
I played with this one day. I tried to come up with a few different ways to "wipe" my blade from a drip chiburi at the end of the finishing cut in that kata from that grip. It's actually quite practical if of course you wan't a drip chiburi before wiping. I sure couldn't come up with anything better while keeping pressure on the opponent.
Mr Bryant, I would be very interested in reading your article.

Tom

Brian Owens
21st November 2003, 05:07
Originally posted by Tom D
Mr Bryant, I would be very interested in reading your article.
I'll second that.

Moved and seconded. The motion passes. :)

hyaku
21st November 2003, 06:15
Originally posted by ulvulv
Living in a desert, owning a camel is quite a treasure. Isn't the term "chinugui" used for the ukenagashi-noto?

Chiburui now chiburi is to shake it off.

Chinugui is to wipe it off. All over your hakama if you would like to put your hand inside once the edge has rested.

I though commitees were connected with elephants.

The bigger the elephant the bigger the balls!

Watch out Tim! Camels spit something wicked.

But this is a good thread. In Don Harvey's excellent Seitei manual he says that the reason people could not quite get seitei right at first was because the Japanese teachers had not quite decided which way to do it themselves!

Hyakutake Colin

Brian Owens
21st November 2003, 06:35
Originally posted by Shorite
I am reading the book IAI by Darrell Craig...
David, David, David! :nono:

Didn't you read the "Budo Books That Suck" thread before buying that book?

I know the price was better than Japanese Swordsmanship by Warner & Draeger (getting hard to find, even in used paperbacks) or Flashing Steel by Shimabukuro & Pellman, but yikes! Not Darrel Craig's book!

Just kidding. I'm glad you're reading up until such time as you can find a dojo with a sensei who will undo all your bad habits. :D

Chidokan
21st November 2003, 20:26
Watch out Tim! Camels spit something wicked. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I just was hoping for a 'bite' off someone... just call me 'elephant man'.... :D
Shame Don packed it all in and went line dancing instead... the book was quite good.

Living in a desert, owning a camel is quite a treasure. anyone come up with a better one than this?? Quite profound Ulvulv, at least I hope it was meant that way!;)

ulvulv
22nd November 2003, 00:28
Originally posted by Chidokan
anyone come up with a better one than this?? Quite profound Ulvulv, at least I hope it was meant that way!;)


:toast:

Gene Gabel
22nd November 2003, 10:20
Originally posted by Shorite
I am reading the book IAI by Darrell Craig, and in it is this kata. I was wondering why, after the warding off move and the downward cut, you change to reverse grip and then sheath your sword?
It just seems wierd to me, but in no way am I knowledgable on Iaido, so thats why I am asking you.
................................................

Hi David,
You are in luck, there is a fine club in your area. West Florida Aikido near the airport, and they have MJER Iaido as part of their curriculium. I'm sure they will be happy to have you come by for classes and answer any questions you have. I was just over there a couple of weeks ago for a seminar in MJER with Carl Long Sensei and they are a great bunch of bukoka.
Of course you are welcome to drive to Mobile and train with us in MGR and Kuniba Iaido (we have a couple of reverse hand kata in our styles) and and we will answer whatever we can.Any time...or you can email me.


Gene Gabel

Shimura
22nd November 2003, 13:24
Thanks for the plug Gene. Yes Dave, come by and see us. We would love to help you with your interest in the sword. Classes for iai follow after Aikido on Tuesdays and Thursdays 8pm to 9pm. We are located in Executive plaza off of Langley and just before the Regional Airport. You can use the Tae Kwon do plus dojo on the corner as a guide. It's just past that down that small road. We practice Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu under the auspices of the Jikishinkai organization of Masayuki Shimabukuro and the hombu dojo under Miura Hidefusa in the Osaka/Kyoto area. We don't do any reverse cuts, as far as my limited knowledge of the art, knows but I'm sure Gene and his group could help you here.

Brian Owens
22nd November 2003, 17:54
Originally posted by Shimura
We don't do any reverse cuts, as far as my limited knowledge of the art, knows but I'm sure Gene and his group could help you here.
He was just curious about the reverse-gripped noto following "drip" chiburi, like in MJER Shoden Ukenagashi, Kaishaku, and Tsukekomi (well, Tsukekomi doesn't use drip chiburi, but it does use the reversed-grip noto).

Except for the Zatoichi movies, and their modern parody, Blind Fury, I've never seen a reversed-grip cut. I wonder if there are any JSAs that actually do that.

Shimura
23rd November 2003, 12:24
Of course the noto, I understood that. I was also taught to perform the "reverse" noto when doing Kaishaku, Tsukikomi etc. with the drip chiburi. I am curious though if there is any legitimate schools of sword that did teach a reverse cut. And no I'm not talking about some crazy sho kosugi ninja stuff. I mean a legitimate Koryu sword style that applied this type of cut for a practical purpose, if it could be said this is a practical way of cutting. I personally don't think it would be, any thoughts, comments etc.?:rolleyes:

ulvulv
23rd November 2003, 14:28
when were talking about reversed grip: there is a tachi-waza in tskr where the initial technique is like the thrust you see in ganmenate in seitei-iai, but you grip with both hands palm up, draw the saya back, rotate the sword -kissaki down and forward til jodan- preparing for the next cut. What is the riai in this tskrkata?

Martyn van Halm
23rd November 2003, 23:46
Gyaku-yuki-no-tachi is a 'defense' against someone grabbing the hilt of your sword.
The left hand is on the saya with the fingers on the tsuba, the right hand reaches past the opponent's hand on the tsuka and grabs the kashira. The right foot pulls back as the tsuka is pulled to the chest. The right hand now moves down toward the tsuba to dislodge the opponent's hand. Stepping in with the left foot [cross-wise], both hands [holding the sheathed sword at the tsuba] move forward and ram the kashira into the opponent [depending on the teacher, this blow is to the face or the sternum].
The sheathed sword moves back [through the obi] to its original position. With the right hand in reversed grip, step back with the left foot while sliding the sword from the saya. The right foot steps back and the sword whirls upward [blunt edge up and tip aimed at the opponent] to jodan where the left hand closes around the tsuka, the right hand reverses its grip to the normal grip and the sword cuts down while stepping forward with the right foot.

Stephanie S
24th November 2003, 15:58
I'm just a beginner, but hearing any comment begin with, "I am reading the book IAI by Darrell Craig" is just like hearing in the middle of a college Japanese class, "Demo, ano, Masako Sensei, I was watching this one anime once..."


---------

Stephanie Schwartz <-- Signed my name

ulvulv
24th November 2003, 16:19
I'm just a beginner, but hearing any comment begin with, "I am reading the book IAI by Darrell Craig" is just like hearing in the middle of a college Japanese class, "Demo, ano, Masako Sensei, I was watching this one anime once..."

That is a rude and patronizing comment. If you are not able to contribute more to this thread, I suggest you leave your keyboard alone. If you have read the book and would like to critizise it, fine, then do it more thorough, without albowing the poor bugger who came with an sincere question.

Scott Irey
24th November 2003, 22:29
Roar...dude...I think your fundoshi is wrappped too tight. Loosen it up a bit take a few relaxing breathes and re-tie it. You should be much more relaxed and less likely to take offense at observations made by our more "youthful" e-budo members. Remember....breeeeeathe....

Warmest Regards,

ulvulv
25th November 2003, 06:16
Originally posted by Scott Irey
Roar...dude...I think your fundoshi is wrappped too tight. Loosen it up a bit take a few relaxing breathes and re-tie it. You should be much more relaxed and less likely to take offense at observations made by our more "youthful" e-budo members. Remember....breeeeeathe....

Warmest Regards,

No major tension here....buddy.... If someone asked my colleagues, they would say in unison that over-relaxing is my major problem. :D

My approach after 9 years in front of the blackboard facing 30 juvenile animals is that there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers. And that when people make no effort, they should be told.

Nsherrard
25th November 2003, 10:10
Well, I thought it was pretty damn funny. E-budo threads have gotten way more nasty and off-topic than this before a stink gets raised. It's odd, isn't it, that some people seem off-limits to criticism, while others are fair game, regardless of legitimacy. So, just because I'm feeling surly, *holding sides* muahahahahahahahaHA! Most of the groups whose affiliates post here harbor secret hatreds, or at the very least, misgivings and raised eyebrows for most of the other groups and their affiliates. Everyone tiptoes around on this forum, simply because if they didn't it would degenerate into something like ye olde rec.martialarts.whateverthehellitwas. We all act like we're so above all that, but you all know what we talk about in the dojo and over beer after practice. Bunch of old hens, we are, not to mention hypocritical. "Ooh, did you hear what so-and-so said on e-budo? Did you see that demo on video? Ooh.." We all do it, dammit! So, Stephanie, thanks for making me laugh. And speaking of videos, you ain't laughed till you've seen the outhouse assassination. Oh, and there certainly is such a thing as a bloody stupid question! This is especially true when it come to Martial Arts. I've been to seminars where hours were wasted because of stupid questions. I have an adage of my own: When people start asking stupid questions, they should be told. Finally, I thought the original question was pretty well answered, so I wouldn't be too concerned on the questioner's behalf. AND, I always wondered about that TSKSR move. Thanks, Martyn. *Rant off*

Nathan Sherrard

ulvulv
25th November 2003, 11:33
Originally posted by Nsherrard
. Oh, and there certainly is such a thing as a bloody stupid question! This is especially true when it come to Martial Arts. I've been to seminars where hours were wasted because of stupid questions.
Nathan Sherrard


I guess you stopped asking then?:D

Martyn van Halm
25th November 2003, 22:25
Originally posted by Nsherrard
AND, I always wondered about that TSKSR move. Thanks, Martyn.You're welcome, Nathan.

Scott Irey
26th November 2003, 01:10
Originally posted by ulvulv

My approach after 9 years in front of the blackboard facing 30 juvenile animals is that there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers.

Well Roar, you have either had a relatively blessed teaching experience, or you are a person with an incredibly positive outlook. I have been teaching in one form or another since 1986 and I have lost track of the stupid questions...granted they are far fewer than the good questions and even less frequent than the number of stupid answers I have provided..but there have still been plenty of stupid questions. I have noticed a relationship between the age of the questioner and the relative stupidity of the questions being asked...but that is a discussion for another thread ;)

Keep you fundoshi loose and your questions brief...or was that keep your briefs loose and question your fundoshi?

ulvulv
26th November 2003, 06:57
Originally posted by Scott Irey


Keep you fundoshi loose and your questions brief...or was that keep your briefs loose and question your fundoshi?

hahaha. e-budo, "japanese wordsmanship"?
:D :D :D