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Chrono
21st November 2003, 04:21
I just suddenly started wondering, is Zen Buddhism more of a religion or a philosophy? Or does it matter? I've seen Taoism being used as a both.

Jon

falang gwai
21st November 2003, 07:47
is Zen Buddhism more of a religion or a philosophy?

It is neither, really, so much as a practice. Which goes a long way to explain why articles in books tend to be confusing (or at least missing something essential) and the professors who write them have so much trouble speaking in comprehensible terms. You have to do meditation and let the practice inform your life.

Nonetheless, Zen is part of Mahayana Buddhism. Now just to make your question even more to the point, people often ask, "is Buddhism - per se - more of a religion or a philosophy?"

This is probably because the Buddha counseled strongly against having faith. So you can't believe -- like in Christianity -- but lots of ordinary Buddhists do anyways. What you should do is to take all claims to truth with a grain of salt until your practice allows you to accept or reject them.

I find this to also be extremely good advice when approaching non-scientific theories like Traditional Chinese Medicine and any claims to supernatural powers claimed by martial artists.

From Thailand, the Land of Temples

don
21st November 2003, 16:44
Originally posted by falang gwai
It is neither, really, so much as a practice..... Nonetheless, Zen is part of Mahayana Buddhism.

I would agree, with caveats. This sounds like DT Suzuki's (and thus, in the West at least, the prevailing) view. I'm given to understand that others, Takuan, e.g., would not agree. (Takuan did not emasculate Zen of its ethics as did Suzuki, an eventual apologist for Japan's brutal tactics in China.) Indeed, when Ch'an was introduced to the Kamakura Bakufu by the Chinese masters, they despaired of the Japanese ever learning as they were ignorant of Chinese literature when not totally illiterate. Ch'an was not the "spontaneous" moment of experience that it became in Japan. Indeed, it was very formalized with conventions of Q/A involving intricate liturgical citations.

For further reading, I recommend Robert Sharf, "The Zen of Japanese Nationalism," History of Religions 33:1 (August 1993), pp. 1-43 and also an exhange between Keenan and McFarlane in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies spanning several issues from '89-91. (I was able to get all of these through interlibrary loans.)

Chrono
21st November 2003, 23:29
Originally posted by falang gwai
It is neither, really, so much as a practice. You have to do meditation and let the practice inform your life.

This actually makes more sense than it being a religion or a philosophy.

Jon

sojobow
11th January 2004, 11:27
Originally posted by don
[B]I would agree, with caveats. This sounds like DT Suzuki's (and thus, in the West at least, the prevailing) view. /B]
An Introduction to Zen Buddhism: Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki (With a Forward by Carl Jun) - Grove Press, New York:

Chapter II: What is Zen;

"If I am asked, then, what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. Whatever teachings there are in Zen, they come out of one's own mind. We teach ourselves; Zen merely points the way. Unless this pointing is teaching, there is certainly nothing in Zen purposely set up as its cardinal doctrimes or as its fundamental philosophy."

Thanks for the other references. I am still trying to find a book, article, website etc., that speaks of Zen in English. So much of the writings on the subject utilize Japanese terms so an amount of my time is used translating terms from Eastern terminology.

One would have to read this particular book as one reads The Book of Five Rings. Read a little, think a lot - then go back and do it all over again. Then you must remove from your mind anything referencing your past thoughts and beliefs. Then you find it simple until you lose your way and start again.

Zen teaches nothing and nothing points the way to nothing. Sleep on that one! I am.

Help!

power teacher
15th January 2004, 23:09
Originally posted by sojobow

Zen teaches nothing and nothing points the way to nothing. Sleep on that one! I am.

Help!

Very enlightening Sojobow!

Would Zen/nothingness also be the control of a relaxed state of mind?
A tense body/muscles causes a slower time of reaction.

El Guapo-san
16th January 2004, 11:05
Try reading the Mumonkan, then maybe some interpretations of it. Maybe you understand it, maybe you don't, maybe you think you do, or maybe there's just nothing to understand. It's all up to you.

(walks out of room wearing shoes on head)

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

sojobow
18th January 2004, 05:52
Originally posted by power teacher
Very enlightening Sojobow!

Would Zen/nothingness also be the control of a relaxed state of mind?
A tense body/muscles causes a slower time of reaction.

You are correct. any time taken to react would itself be a delay. Although i personally think a tense body/muscles GENERALLY would cause a slower time of reaction, there are certain instances when one would want to tense certain muscles enabling those muscles to react properly. Example, some MA'st use a fist with the thumbs not extended in over the knuckles. This fist position (with the thumbnail basically pointing to the second joint of the index finger) automatically tenses certain muscles in the forearm and wrist. There are many other instances when one would automatically tense certain muscles. Guess the key word here is 'automatic.' But the concept of Mushin should still become second nature in just about everything we do from the point of attainment onward.

sojobow
19th January 2004, 06:28
Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Try reading the Mumonkan, then maybe some interpretations of it. Maybe you understand it, maybe you don't, maybe you think you do, or maybe there's just nothing to understand. It's all up to you.

(walks out of room wearing shoes on head)

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

Funny you mention Mu. I find each poem very difficult (personally , not good at riddles) so I primised myself that I would, one day, come back to them and start from #1, meditate on it before going to #2. Difficult part is that in Zen, it is said, learning from the words of others is liked to trying to strike the moon with a stick (I guess while you are standing on earth). So, we're back to square-one --nothing. Interesting philosophy of Zen. More/other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanx.

El Guapo-san
19th January 2004, 10:52
Also reading a book right now called "Hardcore Zen" by Brad Warner. Interesting, if not a little bit of the beginning reminds me of the Talking Heads lyric "Well, how did I get here?" Then again, the guy's story is do unique, it is interesting.

Google around to see his site as well. I prefer to come at it from the Mumonkan point of view, but Warner may be more accessible for the average Joe.

Josef Vlach, Amsterdam

power teacher
19th January 2004, 18:20
Originally posted by sojobow
There are many other instances when one would automatically tense certain muscles. Guess the key word here is 'automatic.' But the concept of Mushin should still become second nature in just about everything we do from the point of attainment onward.

"Automatic" would be nothingness/Zen where the body responds properly before the brain signals it to respond. Very few find this concept or have experienced it, much less understand the dymanics behind it. Usually when something is hard to understand it is classified as a myth, that doesn't stop it from being real. All answers are within, just hard to search deep enough to find.

sojobow
20th January 2004, 12:13
Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Also reading a book right now called "Hardcore Zen"

Thanx. I did find his website and found some good info. Think I'll stick to D.T. Suzuki's book for now.