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gato
8th October 2000, 19:42
I want to buy a Yanagi ryu`s Kenjitsu video ,but my economic situation is not what i would like , that's why i don't know when i will buy another one ?
Which one to buy first??
Suggestions?

Nelson Sanz

kenkyusha
9th October 2000, 21:11
Kenjitsu 1 has a ton of reishiki, basic handling and cleaning (as well as information on maintaining blades), but is short on waza.

Kenjitsu 2 has a bunch of waza as well as some training exercises.

Kenjitsu 3 has all multiple attacker kata.

So it depends on what you are looking for.

Be well,
Jigme

gato
11th October 2000, 00:07
Thank you very much !
- I Know that the first video is 2 1/2 hours aprox.
How much time is dedicated to waza ?
What covers ?...grip? basic cuts? drawing?

Thank you in advance
Nelson Sanz

hayadeppo
15th October 2000, 14:04
I have seen the Yanagi Ryu tapes (only 1 & 2), save you the money, it doesn't cover much kenjutsu (far better information exists out there). Vol.1 should be revised on the title to "1000+ ways to fold your keikogi" It seems it was diluted with TONS of ettiqute, filmed in repetition.

Maybe someone can enlighten me of the Yanagi Ryu, it claims to be an old style, yet they use a modern "kendo on wood floors" footwork with both feet facing forward & not the "battefield style" with the back foot facing sideways. Also a tendency to have their feet "upitty" (their ki seems up in the feet & toes), with complicated footwork (practical under real stress of combat?). Or did the style just evolve from time period to time period to keep up with society trends?

Jake Garcia/Kaneohe

R Erman
15th October 2000, 18:23
From What I've seen of the Yanagi-Ryu they use a Sankakutai kamae with the feet forming an "L", or the rear foot may be at a bit more of an angle(45 degrees as oppossed to 90).

As far as the being an old style thing, that's a debate that may never come to a close. Yanagi is related to the Daito school, the Daito is traced to Oshikiuchi, which was a collection of techniques as oppossed to an actual Ryuha, according to what I've heard. I don't really have an opinion on whether Yanagi or Daito are clearly Koryu, or if they are Gendai. But I can say this: Their Kenjutsu is not Kendo. Many ancient koryu systems use the higher up postures, which kendo borrowed from them.

I will also say this: From what I've seen, battlefield schools did have lower, deeper postures, initially. However, many of the Ryu founded during the Warring States period adapted their footwork during the Edo period. Because of the realtive peace, most Samurai participated in duels, whether to death, or more friendly matches. Because of the lack of full battlefield armor and the increasingly important methods of Iai, the need for speed caused the change in the footwork. Higher, more upright postures helped facilitate quicker draws, as well as faster mobility in a duel. So, in effect, ancient schools went through a "modernization" phase to increase their practicality.

A quick note: Most of what I've said above is based on my opinion, and the opinion of others whom I feel to be more knowledgable in historical matters. If I am wrong here and someone knows this, please feel free to correct my information. I'm posting this as more supposition, than fact. But, it does seem to be a rather valid explanation as to why so many ancient schools move differently than some of the ancient scrolls showing physical mechanics with deeper elongated postures.

Walker
16th October 2000, 18:19
One the issue of stance: I saw Angier Sensei very effectively refute the wider lower stance theory. He had James Williams of Bugei fame who is a pretty strong guy with a lot of experience in boxing wrestling and martial arts get into a nice low “strong” stance and showed how easy it is to topple him. In fact, just as easy as when standing in a natural stance or hamni, but it was much easier to move and adjust in the more upright stances making them more stable in motion.
On the first video and it’s content: I would submit that we should hand it to Angier Sensei for having the fortitude to put all of that stuff on video. If you can’t sit through that stuff then perhaps you are not ready for the “money shot” techniques. Is proper handling of the blade and wearing of the uniform any less kenjutsu? What is truly remarkable, is that in person he does not stand on ceremony even though he obviously can be as formal or even more correct than your average sensei. Also I have never run across anyone who disagreed with any of the etiquette presented whereas many MA groups are lax in this area and may even have “incorrect” etiquette.

Richard Elias
17th October 2000, 07:10
Hi guys,

In regards to the first video, it was intended as an intro-piece to the series of five videos on the subject of kenjutsu. The history, costumes, and etiquette that is often overlooked or just not taught. These are the first things we learn in our school. Yeah, it's long, but if someone didn't catalogue this stuff it might just fade away. I've met many, including japanese, who didn't know anything about the proper handling of a sword or about the costumes and clothing related to the samurai traditions. You might not consider it relevent to kenjutsu, but it is part of our tradition.

In regards to the stance. On a technical level- the feet are not pointed forward or with the back foot outward. Both feet are actually pointed inward, with the front foot applying slight pressure backward and the back foot applying slight pressure forward. This is so that if either foot is picked up your are moved back or forward without actually having to step. This stance is almost exclusive to the first cut demonstrated to the first video. The cut is intended to have a whip-like action, cutting through the face and exiting just in front of the throat.

In regards to the "battle field" thing. We have many many more cuts and stances than the one depicted in the first video. Some are depicted in the second. Many take very low postures and are designed to cut the opponent and drive them down to the ground at the same time. We might start in a higher shizen dachi or natural stance but the cuts and finishes are always low. We don't start in low postures because that tells the opponent where not to attack. We usually take a natural posture, allowing the opponent to make the most obvious attack. This also allows for quick mobility and less shifting and adjustment to move to a different posture. The one in the first video is the most basic and is actually not typical of the system.

I really can't give any greater info on how old the art is. Due to my teacher's teacher having left Japan and had certain "conflicts" with his own family, we have only been able to trace the lineage of this particular branch of the Yoshida back two generations. Judging from the techniques within the system, they cover a wide range of situational responces. Some are designed for day to day situations; attacked while walking down the street, sitting inside, ambush etc. Others are more dueling or open combat oriented.

A Japanses swordsman when watching my teacher demonstrate the art many years ago was heard saying "either his style is very very old, or the man is a genius".
I like to think a little of both.

R Erman
17th October 2000, 13:38
Thank you Mr Elias. Your post was informative and was better than my own guesswork. I hadn't seen the videos and was taking what I'd seen in magazines articles with Angier soke as a base for my reasoning.

hayadeppo
17th October 2000, 13:57
If you want an awesome, info packed vid of Yanagi Ryu, get the Hojojutsu or Tantojutsu ones, they just barage you with info. As for the formality part, etiquette, etc. seen on the Kenjutsu video, I feel alot of that should sometimes be kept as "kuden" to distinguish impersonators out there from the real deal (hopefully there are finer details to tell sheep from wolves known only to Ryu members). I'm sorry if I sounded as if I opposed integrating that in training sessions (formalities), I'm all for it. But when I expect to see a tape of Kenjutsu, I expect to see a tape of Kenjutsu. It is wise to video catalog the stuff before it is lost, but I feel such info should be on an "overview of the Ryu" or "introduction to the Ryu" tape, then you could also show the other formalities regarding handling other weapons, history, kappo & etc.

kenkyusha
17th October 2000, 18:14
YOU MUST SIGN POSTS WITH YOUR FULL NAME... THIS IS FORUM POLICY!!!

(sorry for shouting, but its important)

Be well,
Jigme

hayadeppo
24th October 2000, 22:24
Eh, Lolo, he aha kou pilikia? lighten up!!!

Jake Garcia/Kaneohe

arcane
3rd November 2000, 03:06
Originally posted by hayadeppo
I have seen the Yanagi Ryu tapes (only 1 & 2), save you the money, it doesn't cover much kenjutsu (far better information exists out there).

Could you mention some of these sources?
Are there any good kenjutsu video/books which demonstrate the waza clearly?
----
Marcus Abrahams

Dan Harden
11th November 2000, 02:12
Marcus

Just to be clear, and yes I am probably assuming a little But I also include this for junior people out there; :) If it doesn't apply to you, then that's ok. But we hate to see people assume they can learn this way and waste so much money.

While it is interesting to obtain a video and book library of different arts (mine is ever growing). Please don't think, or attempt, to actually learn anything from them.

Many people make that mistake, and it is fraught with peril. At best they may practice and get a fair "immitation" of some techniques. At worst they may actually delude themselves into thinking they know a particular "art" when in fact they have no clue NONE!
It is worthwhile to "look at" it all in order to get a feel for what's out there, but that's about all you will get. In the end, it is the things unseen that drive the art.
Remember, that in the real world a sensei is correcting your movement for years and you still don't get it... Right?
Then you FINALLY do something right and he takes it up a notch and shows you things you never saw before!
Ain't gonna happen from reading or watching...just ain't


Dan


[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-10-2000 at 09:47 PM]

djnoah
9th July 2006, 04:56
Hi -- It's probably a good idea for you to know that when I was training with Kano Sensei and Iwanaga Sensei they regularly told me that you could not learn from videos, and that the videos & books they made for the Japanese Government in the 60s, 70s and 80s were intentionally misleading; showing techniques that were NOT Yanagi Ryu...as is consistent with all photos or videos you may see of Yanagi Ryu -- or any true 'Kobudo' style for that matter. This includes the yearly demonstrations and tournaments at the Budokan and other 'official' venues in Japan. Indeed, the training at the main dojo in Amagasaki is quite different from what you will see in those videos. The reason for this goes back a thousand years to when the different ryu-ha were constantly at odds, constantly trying to steal the 'secrets' that the others had in case they encountered them one day on the battlefield. The culture of secrecy between these arts is very alive today; you will almost never see a deshi in a particular Kobudo style ever cross over and train at a different Kobudo style's dojo.

So...in short...Yanagi Ryu is not meant to be learned from a video. Good luck in your training.

djnoah
9th July 2006, 05:07
I don't really have an opinion on whether Yanagi or Daito are clearly Koryu, or if they are Gendai. But I can say this: Their Kenjutsu is not Kendo. Many ancient koryu systems use the higher up postures, which kendo borrowed from them.

I will also say this: From what I've seen, battlefield schools did have lower, deeper postures, initially.

Just an FYI: the Koryu Yanagi-Ryu has a longer name of "Shin Getsu Muso Yanagi Ryu" and was founded by Iwanaga Gennojo Masamitsu over 500 years ago. It is still being taught today in Amagasaki Japan and is headed by Iwanaga Gensaburo, a direct descendant of the style's founder. The traditional (Koryu) Yanagi-Ryu Kenjutsu is connected to Yagyu-Ryu in stance and execution, being more 'forward' than anything else, and very low...If you train it you will see the advantages. Also important to keep in mnd that Kendo is not Koryu... Kendo is a sport and, besides the Yoroi Kumi Uchi aspect, also has little connection to the training of Koryu Kenjutsu.

This is very different than the style being practiced by Sensei Angier's group and not connected in any way.