Shiro Saigo on Yama Arashi

[MarkF]

Here is a quote from Tsuneo Tomita's book, "History of Judo" or the translation of it, from 1962, Saigo Shiro's description of his Yama Arashi Throw:





This is how Shiro Saigo explained his "yama-arashi": Mountain Storm.

The two opponents stand upright (migi), with the right hand we must seize fairly deeply the right hand collar of our opponent -- the right hand seizes the under side of the opponent's right hand sleeve (oku-sode); at the same time, we must bring our body to bear on the right hand side of the body of UKE -- while the latter is advancing naturally and without anything having warned him of our intention, we must stoop (just then the movement is very free and loose) and draw our opponent towards us (contact) while our right leg sweeps the whole length of the right leg of UKE as in "Harai-goshi." Our right foot gives the opponent's right foot a blow and our toes hook up his foot.



It can be said that "Yama-arashi" is a combination of "Harai-goshi" and of "Seoi-nage." The collar can be seized, the thumb being hidden or the thumb left on the outside.


A little agressive, but I'm not against a little agression now and then.


Mark

(Edited due to over-sized font).

[MarkF]

PS: I just knew there had to be a "hot foot (or foot stomp)" to throw such a big guy that far, and to do do twice.;)


Mark

[Peitolm]

I'm having some difficulty visualising this, lots of refereences to the right , none to the left, is this a one handed throw, or is it something like,

stand facing your opponent, in a natural (non jigotai) stance, with your left hand grip your opponents right arm, with your right, take a deep grip of your opponents left collar etc.

or is it a "cross-grip" with both of tori's hands on the same side of uke?

[CEB]

Originally posted by Peitolm
...

or is it a "cross-grip" with both of tori's hands on the same side of uke?

Yes, I think so. Or at least that's what how it reads to me and this makes sense because the Yama Arashi I was taught is done with both hands gripping the same side of uke. The one I was taught reminds me more of Tai Otoshi with the cross grip. You can put some leg action in it but it is definitely a hand throw.

[Starkjudo]

I tend to think of it as an ashi-guruma with a both hands on the same side tai otoshi swing to it.

I tend to think of yama arashi as we're mostly all right; it tends to be a little more of a concept than a definitive technique.

[MarkF]

There is at least one error in the description of the throw. Plus, there are/were statements on Tomita's writing, some of it on the non-fiction-fiction side.

Try replacing "right arm grasping the right sleeve" with "left hand grasping the right sleeve" of uke. It makes a bit more sense that way.

Plus, I had major doubts of the last line, the throw being a combination of seoinage and harai goshi. That's how some of us might describe it, but wouldn't Saigo Shiro be able to distinguish this throw from the other two easily enough?

Here is something I've asked myself, or I find it crossing my mind. I think most techniques are named by what uke does or what tori does, but it definitely is some kind of waza. This throw doesn't indicate any of that.

I always thought the name was strange. Why "Mountain Storm?" It isn't a description of a nage waza at all, nor is it of any waza in judo. It does stand out, however, and makes the "story" a good one. There are others which have descriptive names, such as "Swallow Counter," but you at least know it is a counter move or a reverse. The term Nami can be taken several ways, but with nami shiho gatame, it is a good descriptive name of an immobilization technique.

The book was published by Henri Plee in 1962. It was distributed in Canada and the US by some very creditable judoka.

Here is an anonymous quote by a Russian man who reads Japanese:


Thank you for your help. But frankly, I don’t like Tomita Tsuneo’s writing. Everything I have read of his writings (articles in 5 volumes of “Judo Koza” and quotations in various publications) makes me think that he was too free with facts and always gave in to his own fantasies. Too many inaccuracies. Let’s take for example the quote you have send me.

Saigo fought left side forward but in the description of 'yama-arashi' a variant to use from the southpaw stance is described what makes me think that these are hardly Saigo’s own words. And Tsuneo as always with Japanese confuses sides: If it is “with the right hand we must seize fairly deeply the right hand collar of our opponent”, then it is not “the right hand seizes the under side of the opponent's right hand sleeve (oku-sode)”, but the LEFT hand. The description as such is typical to judo books. It’s available in “Judo Koza” (1954-55) or in “Judo Tebiki” by Takeda Asajiro (1931) which I have at hand.


I'm not taking liberties with what may be exactly (minus the errors) what was said by Saigo, then translated by Henri Plee. I am just questioning the translation and, as I haven't read the book, I wondered what some of you thought of the quote. I'll also reduce the size of the font. I don't know what I was thinking.:o


Mark

[Bob Steinkraus]

I thought the "storm" part came from the cross over step that initiates the throw. You are whirling like a mountain storm.

Get the sleeve grip with your left, grab the right collar with your right, drive your left shoulder into him as you step across with your left foot in front of his left foot.

Spin hard to your own left, drive your right leg against his right leg as you lift and spin him.

Wham. (In theory).

[MarkF]

Hi, Bob,
You draw a better picture, though. By itself, the name hardly implies that, unless I am getting the translation wrong.

Some people translate kataguruma as "shoulder whirl" instead of Shoulder Wheel, but like most of the waza, it still is descriptive enough to see it in the name, which are just little descriptions.

But yes, I can understand your point. That there are probably as many definitions as dojo out there, your description makes sense. Is "Yama" then the guy you are throwing, as Shiro was so young and small, his opponent, in THAT taryu-jiai, much older and bigger?

I probably answered my own question, but I was always miffed by the Kodokan's lack of a description.

Anyway, thanks. I probably should have thought it through before remarking, but it is a good name, it just seemed out of place.


Mark