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Jeff Bristol
23rd May 2000, 03:11
Since we don't have a polearm forum and there is no general discussion in the weapons forum then I thought since this question may deal with tradition it might fit here. I have heard that the Naginata is a popular weapon among women. Why is that? Has it traditionally been such or am I just way off?

Jeff Bristol

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It may come to pass that myriad people suffer from the evils of one man, in such a case are not myriad people saved by killing one man? Is this not a true case of the sword that kills is the sword that gives life?

Kolschey
23rd May 2000, 04:54
This is a topic that I should probably defer to those with more experience, but I have heard that a polearm helps a woman to use the strength and lower center of gravity of her hips to offset the upper body strength of a male attacker. The advantage of range probably has bearing as well. If I remember correctly, I believe that Mr. Ellis Amdur wrote an article on naginata, which was printed in the Journal of Asian Martial arts several years ago.

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Joseph Svinth
23rd May 2000, 09:29
The article you're thinking of is Ellis Amdur, "The Development and History of the Naginata," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 4:1, 1995.

See also Ellis Amdur, "The Role of Arms-Bearing Women in Japanese History," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 5:2, (1996); online at http://www.4martialartswomen.com

[This message has been edited by Joseph Svinth (edited 05-23-2000).]

kagebushi
23rd May 2000, 16:06
I think a locigcal explantion would be, that the Naginata was preferred by women, because of it`s range. I do not think women could have fought with a sword as much, as they were often to constricted by the Kimono. The footwork is very limited by a kimono, but the Naginata can balance out this point with it`s effective range.

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Mark Brecht

Margaret Lo
23rd May 2000, 16:48
I don't suppose women can change their clothes? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Just because someone is trying to kill them?

-M-

PS - it was explained to me - with maybe more drama than authenticity that: during a seige the women would be the last defense of the castle once all the men were dead - then they would hold off the enemy with naginatas for as long as possible while others tried to escape or commit suicide, and then everybody dies. wow.

Obviously we are not the equal of the people of yore.

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 05-23-2000).]

kagebushi
23rd May 2000, 17:35
Margaret,

don`t worry there is a balance out there. If man starts stripping during an attack, it won`t help. If a women starts stripping, i am pretty sure the hostilities cease immediatly. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif.

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Mark Brecht

Joseph Svinth
23rd May 2000, 22:36
Mark --

Actually, it depends on the context. During China's Wang Lun uprising of 1774, for instance, besieged Ch’ing forces countered White Lotus incantations using counter-spells made from the blood and urine of menstruating prostitutes. Likewise, during the siege of Chekiang in 1861-1862, T’ai-p’ing rebels had prostitutes take off their trousers and moon the attacking government forces in the belief that this would cause the government cannon to misfire or burst.

The Rajputs also had their women fight to the end. For obvious reasons, rich women and women related to the losing side's leaders were more likely to commit suicide or fight to the last than were servants, slaves, and untouchables.

For a popular introduction to the topic of female warriors by a writer whose other books have been recommended on E-budo, see Jessica Amanda Salmonson, "The Encyclopedia of Amazons" (New York: Paragon House, 1991). For a more scholarly look at related subjects, also see Su, Zheng. "Female Heroes and Moonish Lovers: Women's Paradoxical Identities in Modern Chinese Songs," _Journal of Women’s History_, 8:4 (Winter 1997).

Margaret Lo
23rd May 2000, 23:13
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
Mark --
During China's Wang Lun uprising of 1774, for instance, besieged Ch’ing forces countered White Lotus incantations using counter-spells made from the blood and urine of menstruating prostitutes. Likewise, during the siege of Chekiang in 1861-1862, T’ai-p’ing rebels had prostitutes take off their trousers and moon the attacking government forces in the belief that this would cause the government cannon to misfire or burst.
1997).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talk about the decline of eastern civilization. Though those spells do sound horrifying.

-M-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 05-23-2000).]

Nathan Scott
24th May 2000, 01:09
Hi,

Naginata wasn't always a Woman's weapon. For instance, it was probably most well known during the second Mongolian invasion in the 1100's.

The Mongolian cavalry was legendary, and the Japanese built maze-like fortifications in an attempt to break up their grouping, at which time I understand tactics like using a Naginata to cut the horses legs and drop the rider were developed.

I've also read that the sune-ate (shin protectors) used in Japanese armor was added after the popularity of the Naginata, as the sune and hiza are the strongest targets for a Naginataka.

Later, the naginata became smaller and lighter after it's use on the battlefield was minimized, and the weapon had become popular with Women.

There are several koryu that still teach Naginata, some of which are headed by female Soke, and even one (Yoshin ryu I think) that features the Naginataka (women) performing in full kimono!

Sorry I don't have my notes handy, and as such don't want to risk giving out inaccurate dates or info.

PS. Mr. Amdur's article is *really* good - make sure you check it out (I'm overdue for a re-read myself).

Pretty interesting stuff,


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Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

[This message has been edited by Nathan Scott (edited 05-23-2000).]

Jeff Bristol
24th May 2000, 01:34
[which time I understand tactics like using a Naginata to cut the horses legs and drop the rider were developed.

[/B][/QUOTE]

That sounds alot like a chinese spear I have heard of. I cannot remember the name but it was anmed for a geneeral. It looks alot like anaginata. Infantry used them because they had metal handle, they could weigh up to 50 lbs, I understand. The modern versions, though use wood. As I understand it it is a weapon taught in one of the shaolin systems, but I was only half listening to the tv when they were talkiing about and I read about it in a boook a while ago.


Jeff Bristol



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It may come to pass that myriad people suffer from the evils of one man, in such a case are not myriad people saved by killing one man? Is this not a true case of the sword that kills is the sword that gives life?

Kolschey
24th May 2000, 02:47
50 Pounds?!?
Goodness Gracious! That's considerably heavier than most of the swords or polearms that I have seen in European arms collections. The only weapons that I can think of that weighed that much were generally ornamental/ ceremonial. It would take a very sturdy man indeeed to wield that.
On the other hand, the Scottish folk did train through practice of the Highland Games, which involves some pretty extraordinary feats of strength. I would love to know more about this weapon's history.


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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Jeff Bristol
24th May 2000, 02:53
I agree it does sound kinda heavy. I heard that bit on the Discovery channel I believe it was. But the hafts were solid metal so...

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It may come to pass that myriad people suffer from the evils of one man, in such a case are not myriad people saved by killing one man? Is this not a true case of the sword that kills is the sword that gives life?

Jeff Bristol
24th May 2000, 02:59
You know I had my information wrong, in the begining when it wa 50 pounds it was used by calvary, and then as it got a wooden handle it was used by foot. Sorry bout that it was a while ago.

Jeff bristol

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It may come to pass that myriad people suffer from the evils of one man, in such a case are not myriad people saved by killing one man? Is this not a true case of the sword that kills is the sword that gives life?

CKohalyk
24th May 2000, 04:29
Here you go:


http://koryu.com/library/wwj1.html

Nathan Scott
24th May 2000, 04:40
Mr. Bristol,

I believe your referring to a Chinese "Quando", which looks kind of a like a Naginata but has a wide, flat blade. If I remember correctly it was used as you say.

Coincidence?!?

I believe there is a full length Quando and a short haft Quando. It's been a while since I've thought about the Shaolin stuff - sorry.

Regards,


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Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Gil Gillespie
24th May 2000, 15:36
Another intriguing study is "Women Warriors: A History" (1997, Brassey's) by Doctor David Jones. An Aikido Godan at Shindai Aikikai in Orlando FL, Doc is a muti-published Anthropology prof at U of Central FL in Orlando. As a Fullbright scholar in Fukuoka Japan in 1988, Dave earned yudansha in both Muso Ryu Jyodo and Kyudo. "Women Warriors" is a great read, rendered with the same depth, clarity, and humor with which Doc teaches Aikido. His next book is a guide for western budoka training in Japan and is dueout this Autumn 2000.

Gil Gillespie