What are the characteristics of good kiai?

[A. Bakken]

Discuss. :)

[Excel Glenn]

I will relate a short story first. 17 years old, in kumite with a much larger but less experienced opponent. He moves to attack, I kiai (much to my surprise) and counter. My counter cuts air (kick) and my opponent is curled in the fetal position on the floor.

What I remember: before the kiai,....(the sound of the kiai)............., after the kiai. My opponent reported that he had a feeling of complete and utter child like terror just sweep over him, and he didn't really remember the sound. In the time frame it happened, I am not sure he could have reacted to the sound only, as he was on the floor before my kick was launched. Very, very, very strange event...

Spontaneity is important. I do remember hearing the kiai sort of outside myself. It didn't seem to come from just my mouth, it seemed like it eminated from my body. Of course, the sound came out of my mouth.

The people who have had the most effective kiai that I know, don't kiai very often. As a rule, teaching mass kiai on every 10th technique, etc. kills the ability to kiai, imo. It is an intensely personal practice, one that I only do in private and sparingly. Like singing that glass shattering note, those singers rarely venture the risk.

I typically employ the EE and AI kiai sounds, when I do use them. The first I use more defensively, and the second I use offensively or for counter attack. I don't know why, nobody taught me this, but it seems to help my mental state on the few times I have used them.

In my story, the sound I used was AI, which is not a defensive sound, but I launched in conjunction with a counter attack. I achieved some type of Sen no Sen with this. Of course, if this was an actual reproducible skill of mine, I would be quite lucky.

I use deeper SUH (found in Korean arts) type kiai for endurance and it is really just a breathing trick in comparison to the other ones.

I claim no type of expertise in this field, but I wanted to share my experiences and possibly get feedback.

[ulvulv]

Different games, different aims?

aikido:
Did not morihei ueshiba teach that different kiai has different esoterical/spiritual value/meaning? like the holy "a-u-m"?

jodo:
Why use "Ei!" for cutting and "Too!" for tsuki?

[cguzik]

I posted this on a thread on another forum last year:

Originally posted by Chris Guzik



I don't know much about kotodama but I have done a certain amount of chanting practice. One thing that I am very interested to find out is whether there is an aspect of kotodama practice that addresses the issue of how intention influences vocalization.

We all have felt a sensation at times where a word wouldn't quite come out, where it was almost a stutter but not quite, and the reason had something to do with your intention fluttering a bit. Not quite losing your train of thought but more like it was off the tracks a bit.

I find the same issue in my practice when I am not quite fully committed to my posture, position, or movement. It is a very similar feeling. Something about sincerety, and wholeness.

I think one place where the issue with respect to vocalization converges with the same issue with respect to movement on the mat has to do with breath.

I'd be very curious whether this is something that kotodama practice could help clarify.



I think there are similarities with kiai as it can be embodied in sound, although I don't know that I would go so far as to equate kiai and kotodama.

Chris

[gmlc123]

Ancient scrolls in an art called Toako no Jutsu refer to overcoming an opponent from a distance using three kiai. They are

A - which produces breaking effect of the opponents Ki
Ka - which produces the same effect in his technique
Ei - which breaks body movement

Re: Jodo Kiai.

Ei on strikes and Huut on thrusts. The Kiai is to be short and sharp, not like Aikido ie. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Also there's no inclination in pronounciation like english, should be more monotone.

[rupert]

For me, I prefer silent kiai most of the time - my kiai is focused breath that focuses my intent. This silent type can also be longer in nature, concentrating one's form throughout the technique, be it sword, staff, or aiki-waza. Of course, this type is not about shocking or upsetting your opponent's balance.

As stated above, I believe vocal kiai is better if it is more occasional, not regular. For me, the silent time is for regular training, the vocal type is for real - in sword / staff training it is possible, but in aiki-waza training that would mean hurting your opponent. And if you pulled back on the technique in order to kiai, then, there is no technique and you may as well go and shout at the wall.

One thing I laugh at is watching people work their way though to the end of a longish aiki technique, hold their partner down, then kiai really loud. The time for it has long since passed!

Rupert Atkinson

[Mekugi]

I always hear them like "iya-aap" and "ha-aawt".

To me this is odd, because these sounds are supposed to be vowels...and Japanese has only one (formal) hard consonant placed on the end of words :"N"

I asked about it and someone explained what I may be hearing this way...

You start from a closed mouth, teeth together, make the kiai, then quickly return your mouth to the closed position. This naturally makes sharp consonant sound at the end. The Kiai itself is a vowel, but the manner in which it is said changes it.

Anyway....I believe a good kiai is the one that accompanies good technique.

-Russ


Originally posted by gmlc123
Re: Jodo Kiai.

Ei on strikes and Huut on thrusts. The Kiai is to be short and sharp, not like Aikido ie. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Also there's no inclination in pronounciation like english, should be more monotone.

[Andy Watson]

All this explains why there is such a plethora of kiai types at any jodo events I go to.

In the Jodo Nyumon written by Matsui and Ueno they describe for strikes as "ei" or "ee-ei" and for thrusts as "ho-h" with either the jo or the tachi.

This has been reiterated to us at EKF member states seminars for the last few years but people still want to create their own.

I guess a bit of "freedom is speech" should be allowed as it is something of a personal thing but the problem is that people take this as licence to do all manner of foghorn impressions. Without some "standardization" of the kiai we end up "yeah" and "no" for the strikes and thrusts respectively or "shii-iit!" now and again.

:laugh:

[gmlc123]

The biggest difficulty for any non-Japanese is that Kiai sounds are based on Nihongo. So how many of us can speak a second language without any accent ie. like native. Not many.

So it stands to reason that if your Japanese has a major accent ie. you can't pronounce hirigana correctly, then your kiai will also be something odd. This then like Chinese wispers leads to some pretty weird interpretations that spread, or the Kiai of another style is used instead.

For any Japanese the Kiai sounds come from the hara automatically whether they do budo or not, versus English speakers from the mouth and throat.

The bottom-line is that Kiai in Jodo practice is used throughout Kihon and Kata regularly by both Shidachi and Uchidachi, not for the purpose i mentioned in the first post, but moreoever to help the Jodoka in a process to unify their body, mind, spirit and weapon. (Ki-Ken-Tai Ichi)

If you want to improve the authenticity or sound of your Kiai, my advice is get a Japanese person to teach you how to pronounce Hirigana.

[Mekugi]

Still, you hear variations "over here", in Japan.

This because a) there are several accents of the same language b)even native speakers won't all know "the correct way" and will mimic them (especially beginners, not unlike me who does not speak natively) c )people may or may not pronounce things "correctly" even if they know how to.

Even if you can pronounce the hiragana correctly, that doesn't always mean the kiai is correct it's pronounced, IMHO. Whats worse yet, these are not words, they are more onomatopoeic than anything else, it would seem.

If they are words that describe sounds, which are they? Gitatigo or giongo and technically shouldn't they be in katakana;) .

-R



Originally posted by gmlc123
The biggest difficulty for any non-Japanese is that Kiai sounds are based on Nihongo. So how many of us can speak a second language without any accent ie. like native. Not many.

So it stands to reason that if your Japanese has a major accent ie. you can't pronounce hirigana correctly, then your kiai will also be something odd. This then like Chinese wispers leads to some pretty weird interpretations that spread, or the Kiai of another style is used instead.

For any Japanese the Kiai sounds come from the hara automatically whether they do budo or not, versus English speakers from the mouth and throat.

The bottom-line is that Kiai in Jodo practice is used throughout Kihon and Kata regularly by both Shidachi and Uchidachi, not for the purpose i mentioned in the first post, but moreoever to help the Jodoka in a process to unify their body, mind, spirit and weapon. (Ki-Ken-Tai Ichi)

If you want to improve the authenticity or sound of your Kiai, my advice is get a Japanese person to teach you how to pronounce Hirigana.

[gmlc123]

Understand your point re: dialects and differences in even pronunciation, I guess the point I was making is that for Japanese, it's their native tongue and these Hirigana sounds are made from their hara, without any thought not that their Kiai would be perfect. We westerners have to learn to drop from the throat and mouth.

All the symantecs aside, the basic purpose for Kiai is still the same, Ki-ken-tai and typically the qaulity of Kiai reflects the mind/spirit and unity of the practioner.

Presumably, if the reasonance pattern of a Kiai matches the liver of the opponent then it will have an effect like that of a dolphin sonar on it's prey (paralysing), or like in an earthquake only buildings with a matching reasonance to the quake will fall like cards.

[Andy Watson]

Presumably, if the reasonance pattern of a Kiai matches the liver of the opponent then it will have an effect like that of a dolphin sonar on it's prey (paralysing), or like in an earthquake only buildings with a matching reasonance to the quake will fall like cards.

:confused:

Presumably?

[ulvulv]

considering the size of the liver in swordsmanship-circles, getting resonance of some kind shouldnt be that hard:D

[gmlc123]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
:confused:

Presumably?

Let me rephrase, "In theory, presumably (ie. to take for granted).."

[Andy Watson]

but to take what for granted?

Are you suggesting that a kiai, through harmonic resonance with a slab of tissue in my abdomen, can freeze me to the spot while you deliver a deadly strike.

C'mon, you're pulling my leg aren't you?

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
but to take what for granted?

Are you suggesting that a kiai, through harmonic resonance with a slab of tissue in my abdomen, can freeze me to the spot while you deliver a deadly strike.

C'mon, you're pulling my leg aren't you?


Adding this "fact" to the facts of "kotadama", you will get spiritual development trough successful liver-resonance.
What can I say?

Drinks are on me!

[Matt Wolfson]

Kiai in our tradition serves a two fold purpose. First is to energize the body, as in, pulse speeding up, adrinaline dump, etc etc. Done correctly, (abdominal contraction and not noise from the mouth or throat) the kiai will allow for the sudden shift in mental states, from relaxed one to a highly aggitated one, focusing mind, body and spirit. In essence preparing us to fight or flee. Having watched disagreements between friends slid down that slippery slope into full blown fights where both are spitting mad, I came to realize that it takes time to "work up" to that state of being super pissed and ready to throw down. Kiai is the short cut to that state of mind. At least that is how I have come to think about it. Second purpose is to disrupt the other person. I am not sure about all the theory or reasoning behind it, but I have seen it work and seeing is believing. Someone earlier in the thread said that you can disern a persons spiritual developement by there kiai. I agree with this statement as well. I do not have any knowledge of different sounds having different effects. Our teacher does not force us to do it a certain way. He allows each to develope his own sound as long as you do it with the proper breathing and muscle contractions in the stomach.
-Littlepond

[Mekugi]

I re-read my post just now. PEEE-YEWWW I am glad someone understands my point ...further proof I am a lousy writer.


Always...
-R


Originally posted by gmlc123
Understand your point re: dialects and differences in even pronunciation, I guess the point I was making is that for Japanese, it's their native tongue and these Hirigana sounds are made from their hara, without any thought not that their Kiai would be perfect. We westerners have to learn to drop from the throat and mouth.

All the symantecs aside, the basic purpose for Kiai is still the same, Ki-ken-tai and typically the qaulity of Kiai reflects the mind/spirit and unity of the practioner.

Presumably, if the reasonance pattern of a Kiai matches the liver of the opponent then it will have an effect like that of a dolphin sonar on it's prey (paralysing), or like in an earthquake only buildings with a matching reasonance to the quake will fall like cards.

[gmlc123]

It's the scientific principal of harmonic reasonance to take for granted, just read more about it yourself if you desire. The dolphin example is more sophisticated because dolphins can determine the exact reasonance wave length of the liver in fish. Then send out an exact individual matching pattern.

Freeze you to the spot permanently.. probably not, but "break" your intent or movement for a millisec... more likely.

Perhaps with hindsight I should have used the word "stun" instead of "paralyse" in the dolphin example. The latter having a more permanent connotation.


Originally posted by Andy Watson
but to take what for granted?

Are you suggesting that a kiai, through harmonic resonance with a slab of tissue in my abdomen, can freeze me to the spot while you deliver a deadly strike.

C'mon, you're pulling my leg aren't you?

[Matt Wolfson]

Of all the internal organs you keep saying the liver, Why? The sound waves of your voice match the frequency of the liver? I am not doubting you, I do question it though. I would just like some flushing out of where you coming from. Could you please explain this in more detail?
-Littlepond

[Andy Watson]

I have the same sceptisism, I have been poisoning my liver for years and I didn't hesitate for once.

Seriously though, I work at Heathrow Airport and get exposed to various levels of sound and at varying frequencies but I don't remember a time when I have felt any kind of harmonic resonance with my liver.

I also have a honours degree in Energy Engineering and did a level 3 unit in Acoustics for which I got an "A" so not wishing to sound arrogant, sensible, provable answers would be good.

James Randi, stand by please.

[charlesl]

A google search on harmonic resonance dolphin liver stun fish turned up only four hits, and none seemed to apply. Would you mind spoon feeding me as to where I'd find a scientific article on dolphins using the resonance of sound waves for stunning fish? That sounds really interesting.

I don't think the same concept would carry over well to a non-liquid medium (air).

-Charles Lockhart

[Andy Watson]

Uh oh, Greg. You've opened a right can of worms now!

[A. Bakken]

Might I remind you, gentlemen, that this is a forum dedicated to the art of fighting with a stick, not "The Electronic Research Journal For The Study of Dolphins and Aquatic Acoustics"... :smash:

[gmlc123]

Andy, you may well be right.... let open Pandora's box a little further.

Here's a URL that refers to what I mentioned. I can't recall exactly where I first saw the documentary, but it was a few years ago and was either a BBC or Nat Geo doco.

http://www.sarkanniemi.fi/oppimateriaali/dolphin_feeding.html (2nd para from bottom)

URL re: Earthquakes & rubber buildings. http://school.discovery.com/sciencefaircentral/jvc/surpscifacts/equakes_resonance_shaker.html

Re: Liver. This is a major seat for Chi/Ki in the body of any mammal.. and I used it as an example in the dolphin analogy as to describe the effect of resonance in the liver. As for humans and their wopping big liver, who knows.. I do know that when humans get angry ie. are about to attack you, their liver chi/ki rises and perhaps it can be disrupted or broken temporarily. Better ask a Shaolin Buddhist Monk!

Besides most of us know that feeling we get in our body (shiver down spine) when someone scratches their fingers down a chalkboard, so sound vibrations can seemingly have an effect internally. I personally suspect, my opinion only... it more likely to be a result of sound waves, middle ear and/or brain resonance. Interestingly, it doesn't affect everyone.. perhaps cause they're on another resonance frequency ;)



Originally posted by Andy Watson
Uh oh, Greg. You've opened a right can of worms now!

[Jack B]

Interestingly, it doesn't affect everyone.. perhaps cause they're on another resonance frequency Or perhaps they're not wusses... ;)

[ulvulv]

You guys surely are in deep water now

bad joke, I know:D

At least the thread is stunning, if not the kiai. I can feel the vibrations of this thread all over my intestines, my internal system is definetly about to shut down. hahaha


eiii!

[Andy Watson]

Oh no, I've just poo'ed meself!

[gmlc123]

sounds like you guys are describing symptoms from the successful application of the closing of Kasanoshita ie. C2 Strike rather than that of any harmonic resonance. ;)

Or perhaps you just ate something off :D

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by gmlc123
sounds like you guys are describing symptoms from the successful application of the closing of Kasanoshita ie. C2 Strike rather than that of any harmonic resonance. ;)

Or perhaps you just ate something off :D

Canned tuna perhaps. Or was it dolphin?

[Jack B]

I find a well-timed kiai makes all the difference in Neya no uchi.

[Mekugi]

IMHO if there was a sound wave strong enough to stun a mammal, the liver is really the last thing to be worrying about.

-R

[Andy Watson]

...now we've discussed what isn't a good kiai shall we discuss what is a good one.

Here's my starter for 10:

1. Must be in time with the strike - not finishing before the strike has been delivered and certainly not starting after the strike has finished.

Next?

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
...now we've discussed what isn't a good kiai shall we discuss what is a good one.

Here's my starter for 10:

1. Must be in time with the strike - not finishing before the strike has been delivered and certainly not starting after the strike has finished.

Next?


Several days of hard practise with full kiai should not affect your voice


Kiai is an aspect of your kigurai, should be characterized by intense determination, without stiffness, more like an educated rawness, a controlled but intense expression. Not a desperate cry for help :)


kiai shows your dedication to the moment, each cut and thrust should be done like its the only chance. To much mechanical kiai out there, that serve no internal or external, spiritual or pragmatical purpose.

[Mekugi]

I've also hear the Kiai described as like you are saying to your partner :

"Hey you wanna fight? Come get some then!!"

However, that is the same attitude that one should take in the maiai as well from what I am understanding (heh, me, understand- BYAAHAHAHA). I have taken it upon myself to notice that these two play an important role to one another in proximity of the opponent....seeing that one would normally kiai in pursuit of whooping much tushy.


Russ
-Voted silliest person with a stick two years in a row!

[ulvulv]

from iaido-L:

uchidachi-shidachi-kiai
(in kendokata, but though)

THE LAST WORD
Hayashizaki Kansuke once said of the attitude essential after the
"yaa" and "tou" of the first kata: "Even if your foe is greatly evil,
don't draw your sword, or let your foe draw theirs. Don't cut, and
don't be cut. Don't kill, and don't be killed. Help them transform
into a good person. If they still won't comply, then send them to the
next world." The "yaa" and "tou" of ippon-me are not the result of
the so-called three poisons in Buddhism (sandoku- hatred, desire, and
ignorance), but are a manifestation of right versus right. However,
the result is death for the loser of the encounter, and such killing
is the most serious of the cardinal sins in Buddhism. Thus, serious
penance is required. It is thought that penance is a way of self
help. Penance also refocuses the thrill of the fight to the thrill of
the Buddhist way. This not only a way of helping the self, but also
extends to helping others. This in turn goes even further towards
making up for sins committed. In kenjutsu, the victor survives and
the loser is killed. The victor, therefore, must engage in penance
for the sin of taking the life of another. This penance is the
beginning of the kenjutsu to Kendo metamorphosis.

So, in the zanshin demonstrated in ippon-me, not only must a
flawless posture with situational awareness leaving no opening for
reprisal be assumed, but also, shidachi must feel a sense of penance
for the act of theoretically taking the life of another in the clash
of right versus right. This feeling of penance becomes entwined with
the choice of technique utilized in nihon-me.

--Inoue Yoshihiko, Kendo Kata: Essence and Application.

Kenyu - Monthly Newsletter of the Pacific Northwest Kendo Federation
Kenyu Online - http://www.kendo-pnkf.org/news/kenyu.phtml
Tom Bolling, Editor - 7318 23rd Avenue N.E., Seattle, WA 98115

[Andy Watson]

Can we talk about dolphins again?

[gmlc123]

Huh?? you're not being serious again r u? :D you can always read a book ;)


Originally posted by Andy Watson
Can we talk about dolphins again?

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Andy Watson
Can we talk about dolphins again?

or just whack some dudes?:D