PDA

View Full Version : Spirit of Judo



MarkF
9th October 2000, 09:41
As to the spirit of Judo, there are ways to win a match using legal, but painful, waza. On the other side of the coin, is what we can call "just plain dirty?" What is dirty judo? If a strangle hold has been applied, is the fake tapout "dirty" assuming the shimban didn't see it? Does this type of play go against the "spirit of Judo (does it even work)?"

Mark

Bob Steinkraus
9th October 2000, 17:30
Well, the rules say that I cannot apply jointlocks except against the elbow. But I had much success digging my knuckles behind the ear and following the jawline under the throat for shime-waza.

I had a sixth degree black belt show me how to go for a grip behind the neck and essentially use the forearm to strike.

Stepping on uke's foot in randori or shiai can be used to disrupt his stepping pattern.

I have used hane-goshi as a counter to morote-gari that did not, and was not intended as an attempt, to throw. I was just slamming my hip into his face to stop the leg dive.

I've had people dig their knuckles into my ribs as an attempt to break my balance.

I guess my rule of thumb is that it should not injure, nor have a high likelihood of injury. Other than that, in the rough and tumble of randori, go for it.

On the other hand, I trained (once) with a guy who kept trying to manuever me against the wall so I couldn't move backwards. This was a dojo of limited size. I asked him to stay away from the wall, and he responded that it was like playing the edges in shiai. I walked away from him.

Or are you talking about kata-gatame as a submission hold, or things of that nature?

Jeff Cook
9th October 2000, 20:54
Bob,

Great post! If I may quote you: "Well, the rules say that I cannot apply jointlocks except against the elbow."

Then how do you explain ude garami? You are absolutly right - the rules say only locks to the elbow are allowed. But ude garami actually attacks the shoulder.

How did that one get by the rule-makers?

(I know, Mark, I've asked this a million times; still looking for an answer!:))

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

kusanku
10th October 2000, 00:57
When it comes tothat, juji gatame, an elbow lock in name, is actually a shoulderlock too, and ude gatame can in some fashion, affect the shoulder, though usually it does not.

Bob Steinkraus describes what we were taught is called dirty Judo. We were also taught those things, and counters to them,, but to defend against them, not to do them.

Another name for what we called dirty judo was karate.:D

Being in Judo four and a half years and in karate for twenty eight,I recognize the stuff real well.

Once I was in some randori at a club which taught both, and the guy started going through Bob's entire catalog:D on me, in rapid succession, plus thumbing me under the eye with the lapel hand, and kicking me in the shin and kneecap while pretending to go for hiza guruma.

It hurt, and felt familiar, and out of reflex I jumped into a side facing kiba dahi karate fighting stance, and said "Hey! If you want to do Kumnite, the floor's over next to the tatami!'

The guy was very startled, and said he didn't know I was also in karate, and when we resumed randori, the judo got very clean.It was a draw, too.

In the best of all possible world's I would have makikomi'd the fellow, but unfortunately his judo was a little too good for that.

I really did hope he was also a karateka, but he wasn't, as I would have been very happy to have a kumite match with him, where I had an equal chance to bruise him.:-)Ah, youth- I'm glad That's over!:D

But, all things considered, if it isn't illegal and they want to do that, I guess they can.

Ben_Holmes
10th October 2000, 03:19
Although I'm familiar with all the standard 'dirty' tricks, I don't really believe that they are all that common. First of all, if you have to resort to them, your Judo isn't any good anyway. I'm old enough, and good enough, that I don't have to worry about putting up with it in randori. And to tell the truth, I can't ever recall any 'dirty' tricks being pulled on me in competition. (Could be just my memory, we all know what the first thing to go is...)

If I ever have any student ask me about them, I'd really have to understand why they wanted to know before I'd show any of this stuff, I think it's just extraneous to good Judo. If you are *this* hellbent on winning, then you aren't doing Judo anyway...

Bob said:
------------------------
Well, the rules say that I cannot apply jointlocks except against the elbow. But I had much success digging my knuckles behind the ear and following the jawline under the throat for shime-waza.
-------------------------

Well, I don't consider this to be 'dirty' Judo... I think this is just standard Judo... (by the way, use your thumb, not your knuckles).

Ryu
10th October 2000, 06:13
Very good posts, and insightful questions.
I haven't had any formal training in judo except personal study, and training at BJJ dojos (not really judo newaza, but similar). I do have to say that it is the philosophy and the spirit of judo that really attracts me to the art.
I may not have as much experience as some of the other posters, but I guess I can say that randori is extremely rough, and that I would only use "dirty tricks" to match, and defend any "dirty tricks" my opponent was trying to pull. I don't feel that if he is fighting clean, and I can't beat him, then that gives me the right to try anything that would be considered dirty. :) I say fight to the end even if you are certain of defeat. Give it everything you have. I remember once in a BJJ randori session where I was rolling with a student who was much more skilled than I was, and was unnecessarily rough. He was much better at chokes, and locks than I was at the time, but I was better at taking him off his feet, and getting a top position. So even though he was rolling with a nasty attitude, I would not move on to anyone else. I fought him with everything I had, slammed him a couple times, but ended up tearing some ligaments in my left arm from a over-zealous lock. :) So, I'm not sure... I never gave up, but how far does fighting spirit go if you lose?

Take care,
Ryu

Bill King

MarkF
11th October 2000, 10:37
The reason I brought this up was that I have heard this a lot, lately, especially in the last twenty years or so. "Well, it may be legal, but it goes against the spirit of judo."

While I agree to a point with Ben, I don't agree that it says your judo isn't any good. It may be better to say "what drives you?"

All those who compete, or have competed seriously, do know that bag, as Ben describes, but if you have it, and know them, there must be a reason for that collection. If you have never lost, or never intend to, then knowing some of this may be to your advantage, wouldn't it?

Over the years, up until twenty or so years ago, I was really active in shiai, I averaged about four to six a year, won some lost some, made the finals of a national, not to mention the Jr. Olympics (OK, this may really date me, but I think it was the first year they were held, but I don't remember now. Yes, the memory is the first to go, it seems).

What I am really wondering about, is more of the defensive vareity of dirty tricks, the thumb is not new, at least in that position.

Let's say, for now, the clock is running, and osaekomi has been called for your opponent. Is there anything you would do, whether you knew it was legal or not, to get out of a hold? If you managed to get an arm free, but could not extricate yourself from the hold anyway, either because of lousy judo, or a really good opponent, would you find another way of using those knuckes, or knuckle, to get you the space you require to work? Also, if the opponent has managed to get an arm through, grabs your dogi as in shime, what could you do which may not be in this "spirit," but would also get you out of trouble? The hair comes to mind.:D

OK, admittedly, there isn't too much you can do as uke to reverse or escape, except what is in a book somewhere which may say it is legal, but improper somehow, so how far would you go to win? If you knew the way out, but it was not legal, would you attempy it anyway, and push the shimban a little? Some do take up a stance somewhere on the mat and move little during the match, except when in the warning area. Would this lack of attention, or possibly someone new to the job of officiating, be at your advantage, and how would you use, aside from Bob's bag (which seems to get bigger everytime this subject comes up :wave: ), these tricks?

Don't forget, many of judo, or jiu jitsu's techniques were called tricks, so what is a trick and what is a "trick?"

Mark

OK, forget all my bad attempts at this question and let's get down to it. What would you do and how far would you go to win?

Jeff Cook
11th October 2000, 11:28
Mark,

I wouldn't do anything dangerous, but I would make the referee earn his money!!

For instance, while grabbing your opponent's gi on the inside of his leg, -oops!- got a little skin pinched up in the material. Grabbing the pectoral muscle, thumb on top, fingers in the armpit is also helpful sometimes. I may also let my arm creep towards a cross-face if I am trying to work his head back. The fingers in the throat while pushing on your opponent's upper chest can make distance and/or break a hold as well.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

kusanku
12th October 2000, 02:39
Well, Ok. here's what I see as the problem. If one goes pretty far into the study of certain aspects of the martial arts,even in straight judo we come across the study not only of kuatsu and kappo, acupressure shiatsu revival techniques, but atemi-waza, acupuncture Kempo debilitation waza, and I am being nice about this.

So let's say, in order to win a judo tournament, you avail yourself of some of the many books and tapes now out on this subject or even internet articles such as some (ahem!) may have written for , say, Shotokan Karate Journals:D and apply this to Judo, which by the way is pretty easy to do, especially during newaza,as some of you describe using knuckle and finger and forearm pressure invisibly, even striking.

The spirit of Judo competition is not to use atemi waza in shiai.

Now when you speak of pinching and twisting skin with nerves below it,impeding veins and arteries and digging around the pectorals and femoral arteries and subclavian and so on, we are entering the realm of atemi waza.

Shime waza is specifically permitted, but when we add to it nerve attacks, to win a shiai, I think then, we enter a realm actually technically forbidden.

Lets talk about thumbs for a second. If we're doing newaza, and I start jamming my thumbs into the nerves around and below the ribs, into the subclavian nerves, into the nerves on the side of the ribs, armpit, and inside the ribs,I am going to cause you serious pain, but how is this competition judo?

Self defense, yes indeed, but let's take this to the extreme and suppose I yank on your hair above the temple or slap your neck such as to stun you, then manipulate you intothe hold du jour to win? And let's say you don't even know I did it?

Is that the spirit of judo, or just cheating?

In my opinion, the latter.

Ben_Holmes
12th October 2000, 03:21
Kusanku... ditto!! And well said!

I can imagine wanting to win so badly as to ignore someone's attempt to cheat, but I don't want to win so badly as to do any of these little 'tricks' myself. Nowadays I could care less whether I win or lose in the dojo (I suspect I'd be more interested in the street...)

This all comes down to what you are in Judo to learn... are you using Judo to improve yourself? Or are you learning Judo to gain another trophy?

I think your Judo immeasureably improves when you can get to the point of REALLY trying to help your uke work on his/her Judo. And this precludes (at least to some extent) the desire to win.

kusanku
12th October 2000, 10:11
Ben-
Thanks very much!It is interesting that my teacher, who was in the USAF Judo team and trained at the Kodokan, and with the legneds of US Judo,(Porter, Coage, Harris, Campbell, etc., and a host of Japanese and Korean legends as well,taught us the difference between clean and dirty judo, very clearly, and taught us to do clean, Olympic style randori.

Old Sixties style, that is. No thumbs, forearm blows, pinching, poking or piercing.And showed us what to do if someone tried it, with, again, legal technique.Often involving makikomi , yes , indeed, but legal.

Way he taught , it was perfectly ok to yank an opponent to his knees, if he was careless or tired enough to let you do that, fine and good.

But there is a thing you can do, won't work on everone,and it involves digging a figer r two into the area around just above the collarbone and pushing d]straight down and in, and on many and even most people, this will put them on their knees.

Imagine the advantage for a newaza person like myself.Neve,r, ever did it to anyone, in any judo class or shiai.That is cheating, and when someone ried to do it to me, I did what Sensei told me too, hunched m shoulder and lowered my jaw onto the offender's thumb,trapping it there, and turned in and down, which I was heading anyway because of the pressure:-) for a morote seoinage,and threw him for ippon.

Seems his finger was stuck in my lapel,he couldn't get loose.:D

Cheaters never prosper.I fully agree that in Judo practice you should be helping the partner learn judo. This one learned that when you do dirty Judo, there are clean counters that can lose you the match when they are done to you.

Fact is, if your judo is good enough to win clean, you shouldn't need the tricks, and when it isn't, you should tap out and lose like a man, practice with determination, come back later and make your point if that's what trips your trigger.

Now in the street, that's a different thing. But what sensei taught us for the street was not dirty Judo, it was Kodokan Goshinjutsu, or modern jujitsu.

Or, like this: When you throw your uke, in dojo or in shiai, pull up to help him ukemi well, and avoid injury, and get a nice ippon.But mostly to avoid hurting him.But when someone grabs you down on Grand Street, and you lock on for harai goshi, throw him and let him go.That will take care of that.:-)'

Most non judoka don't ukemi too well on concrete.This has been noticed from time to time.

Someone attacks, tai sabaki, sweep the hand or leg away, and taiotoshi, o soto gari, or o uchi, whatever.Wh sticks thumbs in the rib or pinches inner thighs in a fight? No one, pretty much.

Dirty Judo is for dirty competition, it isn't jiujitsu.Not most of it anyway.Jiujitsu is like, going to the outside n a seioinage and then taking the arm on the shoulder palm up, and breaking bones when the throw is done, for instance.If a thumb to the rib nerve opens this up fine, but that's for a real fight and you do't just poke, you dig hard or stike, and that has no place in judo randori or shiai.

Want to win that bad,be a pitfighter.

Judo is a sport and an art, and it is an honorable one, or should be.Just like Aikido or karate.

What would we think of a karate match where one guy grabs the other and suplexs him, or used a makikomi on him?A forfeit!

Or an aikido drill where one guy suddenly produces a loaded colt Python and lets bang?Murder One.

So when judoka go for the eyes,I say they should lose the match and be barred from play at least for a while. That would stop cheating.

Play by the rules or don't play. Atemi waza is forbidden in randori, and in shiai.Thats for the street.

Even karate shiai has rules about forbidden strikes.Pull one and you are disqualified, and I have so disqualified people who tried.

Bad Judo-hansokumake.

MarkF
13th October 2000, 07:15
Originally posted by kusanku:


Or, like this: When you throw your uke, in dojo or in shiai, pull up to help him ukemi well, and avoid injury, and get a nice ippon.But mostly to avoid hurting him.But when someone grabs you down on Grand Street, and you lock on for harai goshi, throw him and let him go.That will take care of that.:-)'



Yeah, yeah, I did this in shiai when I was twelve, thirteen, but after a while, makikomi becomes a natural move. Who doen't follow uke when he is headed for the mat? If you don't, then you trust all shimban to make the right call. But they don't always do that, and I put myself there, too. I've made the wrong call once or twice.

In every shiai I've had since then, my first move was to grab the uwagi just above the obi, and pull it out as far as I could. This became habit, as nearly all front throws were possible with this grip, and it worked, even if it was just the break I got to rearrange my dogi. Has no one ever taken that dogi, gone for a waza in which that dogi whipped against the face/neck of the opponent? Have you never attempted to "blind" uke with his own uwagi?

Well, things have changed, and now these things are even more common from my experience. My purpose was not to use the dogi as a weapon purposely, but it was there. I wasn't talking about randori in the dojo, but the randori in the basho, in shiai.

Good judo should always be the "way," but there is good judo, or more inportantly, legal, non-forbidden judo in which certain tricks are allowed. While I really never did anything, not even getting a warning, which may not be against the rule of shiai, nevertheless, no one was going to pin me if there was something at my disposal, digging a knuckle with the free hand a little, just that little thing which would unbalance uke's center enought to create space and therefore, escaping the pin. Of course the eyes, as well as the rest of the face is off limits.

Bottom line is this. If I can't grip with my right for morote seoi nage, I jammed my forearm as hard as I could in uke's armpit to get the lift I needed, so that when I turned forward, uke's "toenails were scraping the ground." That is how Jack Seki taught that throw, but then again Zanzo "Jack Heywood" Seki was Kodokan taught, at least, those were the claims he made, and everything he taught was in the Kodokan syllabus of judo (Yes, I trained with him for about a year).

But I suppose there are not many of these tricks without "cheating" at least some. Legal or not.
Today, in the time it takes to get your grip, you can be penalized for non-combatitivity. What?

Mark

BTW: Jeff, I think you have the answer. While ude garami, and one or two others as well, does work the elbow joint, it does shift the shoulder as well, the determining factor being speed of application, and how uke decides to fight it, if he does. If the elbow lock does not get you the tap out, then readjusting it does work the shoulder joint and puts pressure there as well and is all perfectly legal, IF your intent is to work the elbow joint. This lock is different than most, as the elbow isn't hyper-extended downward, but toward the head instead of the sky.

William F. Kincaid
13th October 2000, 08:50
Wow a Good topic where you get to see the more colorful side of judo.lol
I always believed in the practice of good clean Judo my teacher DeVore Sensei preached it and practiced it. But alas we had different opinions when it came to pressure points. While he disliked them totally for Randori and Shiai... I always found them to be my tech. of last resort.
<br>
I recently had a lady join up (very light weight) I joke with her sometimes that I can curl her weight but she is an excellent Judoka wouldn't trade the world for her. Her biggest problem was Kami-Shiho-Gatame. Due to her light weight the bigger guys and ladies would immediatly put her into it and that is where she would stay. She would try all the escapes but to no avail, there she would be locked in this hold. One day just her and I were talking while hitting the weights at College and she asked me "what can I do to get out of that hold? The conventional escapes don't work at all for me". I responded "try something unconventional, then." I then explained to her that sometimes we have to resort to more unconvential means in order to survive. Some people may criticize you for being that way but when it comes down to it survival is paramount.
I told her the next class get the biggest guy in class Randori with him and when he puts you in Kami-shiho-gatame try the usual escapes, lure him in and when he thinks you are beaten you take your knuckles and push them into his ribs under the armpits and rake up and down as hard as you can see if that doesn't at least loosen up the hold........
Well to make a long story even longer.... the very next class she did challenge the biggest guy in class and he did put her in the hold as usual, but when she raked her knuckles into his ribs it really got the desired effect he jumped out of that hold and did a big double take. Boy did everyone think twice about putting her in that hold again.lol
<br>
That night taught 3 lessons. To the lady it taught always be learning that nothing is escape proof and that sometimes we may have to resort to more unconventional means. To the man it taught that Take nothing for granted and never let winning become more important than learning. To the other Judoka in the Dojo it taught The playing field just became more equal.
<br>
I agree with the majority of what I heard on this topic as long as it doesn't hurt or maim someone, then I consider it more unconventional than bad Judo. Bad Judo to me is loosing your cool on the mat and/or getting cocky (letting your ego get the best of you)on the mat, when those 2 elements enter into the equation even if you follow the rules to the hilt you are still practicing Bad Judo.
Thank you

Jeff Cook
14th October 2000, 09:44
Mark, thanks for the understanding and validation.

Others,

So, let me get this straight. I am dishonorable. I am a cheater. I am less than a man. All because I condone the use of perfectly legal techniques.

Why use these techniques? Because you believe my judo technique is sloppy? I submit to you that perhaps you have not learned all that is legally available to you in judo competition. Show me in the rule book where it says "atemi in any form is illegal." Got news for you, gentlemen. Elbow locks can be classified as atemi. Butsukari is atemi. When you "crash in" for a throw, this is atemi. Kuzushi is frequently achieved with atemi.

On a technical level, certain tricks are used to induce momentum. These tricks are legal.

As far as the "honorable" likes of Phil Porter not teaching/using these techiques, he is my sensei. This past spring, he taught me a few more useful tricks that you might classify as "dirty."

Good, lively discussion. Valuable too. I would recommend taking a look at these techniques again, and objectively applying the rules to them for a re-evaluation.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

MarkF
14th October 2000, 09:45
Hi, William,
Well, the colorful side of judo doesn't seem make an impression on all the "goody-goody" judo players. Most have made their cases that to do "bad judo" is to be doing even worse judo, at least, that does seem to be the theme.

One thing you have right is that there is always, always an escape, no matter what the size, and what the size of the opponent. While I still have difficulty with the big guys and any osae, this does not mean they are doing it without waza, relying fully on his/her size to hold me down. Make a mistake like that, and I will get out.

Originally, some of the early watercolor paintings and pictures of kano ryu were of small geisha-type women beating off "Popeye's" mortal enemy, Bluto, at least that is what I thought of when looking at the drawings/picures of the tiny woman throwing the "masher" with o soto gake, or some other throw. This was Kano's meaning of judo early on. We all know what he preached, but most were not believers, and Kano himself left the ladies all the kata their hearts desired, but without randori.

But size does matter. It is a fact and there is little we can do about it, except to accept it and work with it. If one fights the perfect match, then he/she will not be beaten. This also doesn't mean victory either, just survival. If people on the short end of the stick would fight, as in shiai or randori, for a draw, they may even win. The little guy is left to fight the perfect match to get this draw or win. This held true for those of a higher grade fighting someone much larger them themselves.

Let's not kid ourselves. While you can practice for the bigger ones and have somewhat of a chance, size does matter.

So the bigger players had this built in ego that the little ones can't beat him/her. It is natural as they grow up thinking that way. This is the first advantage the smaller player has. Over estimating the size difference.

Second would probably be lack of self-esteem in the smaller fighters. Auomatically, the thought is "Oh, God. He is going to beat me to a pulp." Then the small guy does what he can, but still believes he/she will lose, and they often do. At least on the ground, it is only weight which has an advantage, not height.

So the first condtioned reflex one should develop is to lose this fear of losing before the match begins. This takes time, but it can be overcome to a point where, just as it is natural to fear size, it should be just as natural to knowing the advantage the small player has.

But if I am not mistaken, you do not teach contest judo, and in this there is an advantage. Anything goes.:D There is so much one may do without the handicap of learning both ways, but it can be done.

My belief and practice is, after the basics of being tori in newaza is done, the next, and more difficult step of escapes must be taught. Besides, it does give a lesson for one as tori and uke, and that there is no point in which to give. If in shiai, you have thirty seconds (unless you follow the rules of the IJF) to escape, which is more than enough time to do it. Jeff Cook gives a really good written description of escape and countering the hold, in that case, kuzure kesa gatame. While the arm may present itself for gripping for an elbow lock, that should not be of primary concern, escape is.

If one can create the space necessary to draw out the controlled arm, or if in the case you gave, surprise tori to let go, just enough for you to work, it can be done.

Kami shiho gatame is popular (in fact, I cannot remember reading of another win by osaekomi in the Sydney Games which was won with another mathold). It allows you to shift your center to control uke when he tries to turn. If beginners, the tops of the feet should be planted on the floor. If advanced, one kneels with the balls of the feet of the feet instead, and one can even take the knees off in preperation for uke shifting as he tries to escape, but in doing so, your center is raised, making a space for uke to work. At any rate, you arch, twist, and slip out, or you create even more space, what is required to get one or both knees under tori, and pushing him away, as you slip out. The details you know, but in this one, smothering can take place, and this is where panic, struggling, or even tapping out to avoid this can happen. Some do consider this to be a jimewaza of sorts.

Developing your muscles, not for strength, but so you can stretch the knees to your stomach without forcing it, is good preperation for an escape from this and other torso control gatame waza, at least those from the "schoolyard press" to that of controlling the head and shoulders. Create space, and the further you can bring your legs up in that cramped space, the easier the escape.

But you do present a problem for us "sportive types" in that this may or may not be legal. I would think it would be, as your hands/arms are not in the face, and you are not pulling hair.

Orignally posted by William F. Kindaid:


Well to make a long story even longer.... the very next class she did challenge the biggest guy in class and he did put her in the hold as usual, but when she raked her knuckles into his ribs it really got the desired effect he jumped out of that hold and did a big double take. Boy did everyone think twice about putting her in that hold again.lol




This is a good idea, but how many times will it work? Granted, if taught for self-defense (I really don't see this mathold happening very often outside the dojo), it gives the time necessary for escaping, or at least beginning the escape. Unless this is stricly prohibited in contest, I don't think I would stop it. After all, sometimes this technique is what you have.

OK, you have done it, but it failed, now what? Panic sets in again, especially if you feel smothered. What to do? Relax and remember to breathe. Actually, you are not really being smothered, mostly it feels that way, as the air you breathe out is warm. Not exactly a comfortable feeling. Still, some people forget how to breathe in this position. Breathing normally, relax and think about it. You would be surprised at how much space can be gained by just mastering the feeling of panic. Of course, if you can get to them, kyusho will do the job. There are nerves just above the eyes in the brow which hurt like hell when they are impeded, but you can't do that in randori, at least I haven't come across it. Other places are as you described, even the abdominal ribs are there if you can reach. Most fleshy parts of the body respond to pressure, as generally, it covers muscle and nerves.

Now center, gather yourself, and escape. Don't think on it, just do it.

Good points here from William. Anyone have others they think may be helpful? What about yoko shiho gatame? Kuzure kami shiho gatame?

Mark

William F. Kincaid
14th October 2000, 15:01
Thanks Mark and yes I do I like Jeff but different
had the extreme pleasure to work with an older Judoka from the recent olden days Karl Geis Sensei.
Geis Sensei showed me this Tech (he says he is sure it is not taught anymore but then again I thought I had the poorest opinion of the USJA you should see him). I call it Karl's Dance with the devil it is newaza if involves puttting your elbow in the person's rib cage as he or she is attempting to do either Yoko Shiho Gatame Kuzure Yoko Shiho Gatame or Uki gatame.
You start after you have been thrown by tori you start moving and do a double grip on his arm that has ahold of you and as he move in for the hold just let your elbow bend while keeping the grip on the arm your elbow will fit nicely between the ribs as he tries to put you in the holddown it will feel like a knife going into his ribcage. you can Bridge and roll him but be careful it can pierce the ribcage
<br>
As for contest Judo some if not most of its rules I can find myself agreeing with. it is just that Randori is not a contest but a learning arena, so I do diffrent things to induce a positive learning atmosphere. some of the things I do are:
:smilejapa: Play with the ammount of time they have and not tell them. Sometimes it is 3 minutes sometimes it is alot more. Teaches them to better regulate Their strengh and how often to go full tilt
:shadowmas: Technique limit the Randori. One of my favorites is to limit a submission person to just holddowns.lol
:rolleyes: I person stays up (this is a fav among my Students) it allows them to see how different people fight in rapid succession, and it builds endurance.
<br>
These are just a few of my "getting away form pure contest Judo" although for beer and pretzels we do sometimes shiai randori among us but we limit it to non favorites techniques to make it interesting.lol
<br>
Thank you

kusanku
15th October 2000, 02:57
Well, nice thread.Many different opinions heard from.

One guy even said he is not a man if he doesn't do clean judo.

What does one's ability to function as a procreative entity have to do with Judo?No, don't tell me, I don't want to know.:-)

Some say Judo has changed. Yes it has, and I think its a very different gsme than it was.

Others say atemi is varuious things. Okay, it is. But if we are doing judo and I see or feel a thumb fist heading towards my face,today, I will knock the offender unconscious faster than they can say jack Flash.I need both my eyes, and will keep them however I have to.

If we are doing randori, I don't need a right cross from the lapel hand.

that's dirty Judo, period.Good boxing, good jujitsu,I do what I have to do in self defense, we were talking contest randori.

Yes, smash in for the throw hard as you can. Black and blue the ankles with footsweep kicks. All legal.

Use the uwagi as a weapon or katagatame as submission hold. Fine.

Kick where you have no busines, punch or thumb or knuckle where it ain't cool, and atemi waza is now allowable.

Where does it stop?Kick the groin for tomoenage?Break the knee for hizaguruma? Attack the achilles tendo with a stomp kick disguised as osoto-gari? Am I giving anyone here bad ideas or have all these been thought of?

As for makikomi, used them all the time. As for self defense, we learned judo self defense, we just didn't confuse it with the contest style. But that was before kokas and yukos made sloppiness a virtue.:D

hell, we had to use good technique back in the Day.<GGG>

As for jack Sanzo Seki, isn't he the Jiujitsu master as well as a Judo man?
George Kirby's teacher?

As for all these thumbs and elbows into nerves in ne waza- I never had to.If you could learn to not get locked in, you could escape. Sometimes the other guy is just better.

Size.Yes it matters in competition judo, that is why we have weight classes, isn't it?If you are doing self defense, yes indeed anything goes.


Well, that's about all I got left on this subject.:DUs goody-goody judoka tire easily.:-)

MarkF
15th October 2000, 09:30
I don't think I have been very clear with my opinions or thought (brain matter is not replaceable). Really, I was looking for limits and just how far these limits can be pushed.

A forearm across the face was not what I was thinking, more the blinding of uke with his dogi, things I learned to do as a child, which today have become a forearm or a whipping of the face. Things which can be learned, but certainly are not dirty. It is possible to blind someone by covering their eyes for a moment. Sometimes, it gives you the time you need, and isn't in anyway bad waza, at least from the spirit of judo, it isn't. This, as an example, is perfectly fine and could not even be considered anything but good judo.

William,
Of course, in the dojo, time is of no consequence unless training for all possibles in shiai. I spend entire classes letting players play randori on the ground, starting with an escape. There is no clock until toward the end of class when I do try to have intra-squad shiai, something most look forward to doing. Not everyone does it, but that is due to time constraints, but they know they will get a chance to use the new pin just taught. At times, they are just grappling matches. But I understandyour point. In the real world, the only clock is over your hospital bed.:smokin:

Mark