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Arashi
9th October 2000, 19:13
Hi everybody.

I have done Judo as a teenager and never done it again, as some of you already know (Mark and Ben). Back at that time my Sensei NEVER let us kids do Shime-waza. He showed it to some of us (the older ones) and let us go just to the point of feeling it and taping, with he looking VERY CLOSELY. He NEVER let us use it in any kind of competiton, Randori included. I had to quit Judo before i could enter to adulthood and so i guess i never learned it properly (Shime Waza is Judo's finest art, IMHO) and never quite felt it also. Well, reading E.J. Harrison's "The fighting Spirit of Japan" he describes Shime Waza actually as a very common thing in old Kodokan, and more, when you finally got your Shodan, there was some kind of meeting where a master would come and choke you out with all your novice friends and them taught you and the others how to restore you back using kuatsu, etc. Old Jiu-Jitsu/Judo bouts between Japanese and Western Wrestlers (i am talking of Ueynishi, Maeda, Tani, you sure know them) the first almost allways won over the second using Shime Waza, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (wich is really a derivative art from Kodokan Judo, since Maeda, who taught the first Gracie was a Kodokan stylist) stress Shime Waza very hard, using some that i heard are not permited/practiced in Judo anymore. Well, that said, i have a few questions. Have any of you ever choke anybody out? If you did, how did you bring him/her back? Do you know kuatsu (it is not very taught nowadays, i heard)? Have you ever been choked out? How does it feel when you get back from the dead? Why is it so difficult to see it in competitions today (look at the Olympic Games, not even a single one)? Ganbatte kudasai.

Toni Rodrigues

Jeff Cook
9th October 2000, 20:47
Yes, I have choked out two people. None of them required any action on anybody's part to help them regain conciousness. Shime waza is very safe, if you release the strangle as soon as they lose conciousness. Obviously, the longer you hold it, the more dangerous it becomes. It is difficult for some people to realize when they have put their opponent to sleep, so it is very important that an experienced coach/instructor be observing the randori.

Many people that are put to sleep by this method feel somewhat hung-over for a day after. If you continue to participate in randori immediately after waking up from a strangulation, work lightly, and be prepared to tap out immediately if your partner sets another strangle. You will go out much quicker the second time!

I have not been put to sleep, simply because I have enough presence of mind to tap out when resistance is futile. I would much rather tap-out and start over, so I may continue to work out and learn, than to be put needlessly to sleep. You don't learn much when you are unconcious!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

kusanku
10th October 2000, 01:01
We were taught that shme waza can be dangerous, but we were taught it, and katsu and kappo rescuscitation techniques , pretty thoroughly.

I will not comment about experiences here except to say that it is no pleasant feeling.if you even realize its happening.

Ben_Holmes
10th October 2000, 03:10
I've both choked to unconsciousness, and been choked to unconsciousness... always in randori... never in competition. When I was younger and more foolish, I'd let students put me out (there was another black belt there). I wouldn't call it an unpleasant (or pleasant, for that matter) sensation. Although the legs feel pretty wobbly for a short time... as for the sensation in the head, I've often described it to people as my head feels like cotton candy... there's really no words to describe it.

As for how common it is in competition, that's a 'rules' thing... in randori, I think chokes are fairly common. It's simply too easy to slide into a choke, especially Okurierijime and Katahajime.

Joseph Svinth
10th October 2000, 12:08
As you feel the room starting to narrow, it's time to tap out or do something radically different, as you only have a couple seconds left. If you don't tap out or do something different, then note that it is a totally bizarre feeling to wake up on the mat with your hands twitching way off in the distance and realize that your hands are essentially unconnected.

That said, if you rest your tongue against the roof of your mouth, maintain some tension in your neck muscles, and most importantly, relax and center, you can last a whole lot longer than many people realize. At a seminar, I had a guy applying a choke to me once and he got this funny look on his face when upon him saying, "You can tap out, you know," I replied: "I know, I will when you get it."

gavinslater
10th October 2000, 13:25
Hi All,

I have seen a wide and varied different responses to someone who has been choked out. From snoring to flapping about like a fish. Generally with experience you can feel it coming on (especially if you have been choked out before) your head gets a real full feeling and your vision can be affected. The weirdest thing i have felt (although not really from a strangle, more of a finger or two into st 9) is my legs just released and i fell over, but i was trying to stand back up but i couldn't.

As for bringing them back around, generally they will come back by themselves (Normal first aid is also looked at eg. recovery position, making the air way id clear). But we also learn the kuatsu techniques.

Here is some interesting reading taken from http://www.sfuk.net

Why do breathing techniques decrease the effectiveness of strangulations?

Breathing is the only mechanism that is both autonomic and voluntary, and as a result is the only means of
visceral control. As a result, respiratory regulation is the means for NOT INCREASING the effectiveness of
strangulation tactics. What does this mean?

What makes most people have to tap so quickly is their own anxiety of being "choked-out". This fear arouses
their survival syndrome (conventionally known as fight-or-flight), increasing their heart rate and blood
pressure.
Now, it is impossible with one's arms to compress the arterial flow to the brain; firstly because the arteries are
the body's high pressure system, and even digital pressure is difficult because the arteries are hard, small
strong vessels; secondly, because the carotid are not the only source of cerebral blood flow, which is also
spinal. The venous system being a low pressure system, has large, soft vessels, able to be compressed.
What color does the opponent's face turn when strangling him? Not white, but red. If you were cutting off the
blood flow, he would be white as a ghost, not red as a tomato. The flush in the face is because you CAN with
your fleshy soft-tissue arms compress the venous flow of the jugular. The face flushes because of the
collateral compression of the external as well as the internal jugular veins (external draining blood from the
face.) The venous system is the low-pressure system of the body, because it is easier to flow back to the
heart, than the demands of the high-pressure arterial system which must pump strenuously to provide blood
flow out to the body - hence a high (arterial) and a low (venous) pressure systems working in tandem.

If somehow you were able to compress the carotid arteries, still the opponent will not pass, for his cerebral
blood flow continues VIA the vertebral arteries. Although primary cerebral flow transits from the carotids,
compression upon them would force the body to adapt by increasing vertebral arterial pressure pumping blood
through that alternate passageway. (The body can also deliver lesser volume through capillaries.) Surgically,
arterial blockages are routinely operated through direct clamping of the carotid to clean plaque and cholesterol
buildup. What is of significance is that the patient is conscious during the entire procedure given only a local
anesthetic. The bottom line is that inducing unconsciousness via the carotid arterial compression is impossible
- which is the focus of my article featured in last year's WORLD OF MARTIAL ARTS Magazine, called "The Myth
of Strangulation."

The cerebral blood pressure created through jugular venous compression due to the oxygen depleted blood
congestion causes the body to shut down - pass unconscious. This is a survival mechanism of the body for
this shock tactic brings the body to the ground (if standing) in the "hopes" of reestablishing normal blood
pressure. I say "hopes" not to denote a special intelligence in your body, but an evolutionarily stable survival
strategy that has been 'selected' as successful. Our strangulation methods however usurp this tactic, should
we hold beyond consciousness, taking his life from him if necessary.
Now, the Valsalva Maneuver is the physiological effect of survival arousal upon the metabolism. Becoming
Valsalva susceptible is denoted by shallow, upper respiratory panting, rapid heart rate, and increased blood
pressure. Did you ever as a kid, have your buddies hyperventilate, then squeeze them from behind and watch
them pass out? If not, don't do it now. It's dangerous. Relaxing under the hammer of this anxiety is the most
challenging of endeavors, but if you can, you can discontinue increasing pounding cerebral blood flow. Since
your opponent's strangulation is prohibiting the oxygen-depleted blood from leaving the brain, the Valsalva
maneuver increases the pressure, which increases your passing unconsciousness.
Most young people have not learned how to consciously control their heart rate and blood pressure - this is a
developed skill that requires extensive training for which most youngsters do not have the patience. However,
BREATHING TECHNIQUES are open to everyone, and as the immediate access to regulating blood flow and
pressure. Effective respiratory regulation can decrease the rapidity of passing unconscious by understanding
the mechanisms that increase the likelihood and speed at which you pass unconsciousness. This can buy you
nearly 20-30 seconds.

Twenty seconds depending on how much your opponent is struggling may be enough for his muscular
contractions in his arms to fatigue, for him to doubt himself and move to adjust his hold, or for you to
capitalize upon a weakness in his hold, or all of these.

And, if one understands this it can be used against an opponent to make him pass more quickly when you
have the hold upon him. If he is angry, scared, anxious, impressed by the crowd, any anxiety whatsoever, he
will become Valsalva susceptible. There are small tactics that will increase these emotions in him, but you may
fill in the blanks. I'm just a coach.
Any effective breathing techniques will help you in this regard, except for respiratory retention after
exhalation. Increased intra-abdominal pressure through breath retention INCREASES Valsalva susceptibility.
Guess what breathing technique is the most effective for lifting large poundage of iron in the gym? Yep. The
problem is that because this is the only breathing technique with which most people train, it is the exact
respiratory pattern in which they fall, when confronted with another "apparent" (perceived) presence of an
opponent's weight. Watch them struggle, see them go out.

Most people are quick to laud the talents of mastery, but slow to follow the model of true performance
enhancement training, by focusing upon attribute development in the realm of respiratory enhancement, with
methods such as India's Yog, Russia's Zdorovye and China's Tai Chi. There are no 'secrets' save those that we
conceal from ourselves. Go get yourself a copy of Gray's Anatomy and begin studying... once you understand
HOW the body works, you'll empower yourself with the knowledge of why certain tactics work better at which
times and where. Good luck all!

- by Scott Sonnon, North American Head Trainer of Russian Martial Art R.O.S.S., USA National Sambo Team
Coach and International Sambo champion, Master of Sport in Sambo
http://www.scottsonnon.com

Regards,

Gavin.

ss29515
10th October 2000, 20:09
I can honestly say I've been choked out in competion. I think it was back around 72 or 73 in a tournament in Pleasanton CA. I was choked out in my first match. I tried to struggle out of a choke and ended up waking up in the hallway of the gym. I was told I flopped like a fish and they dragged me off the mat and into the hallway. It wasn't an unpleasant feeling as far as I can remember.

mel

Bob Steinkraus
10th October 2000, 21:46
I choked out a lot of guys, in shiai and randori. Also been choked out.

The last time I almost went out was from a standing strangle. I did a tomoe-nage and drove my opponent out of bounds. The referee called 'Matte', I stalled long enough to regain my equilibrium, and went on to win the match.

It doesn't hurt to be choked out with an arterial strangle. Air strangles hurt like hell from the pressure on the trachea, which produces a quicker submission. Never met or heard of anyone resisting an air strangle long enough to pass out from lack of oxygen.

The ceremony of being choked out after your shodan test is a very old one. It comes under the same heading as a lot of initiation ceremonies, basically harmless if not taken to excess, but still rather stupid.

Traditional Japanese katsu techniques are not usually necessary. Leave the person alone for a few seconds, and they will recover on their own.

efb8th
11th October 2000, 06:30
Hi, Everybody.

My sensei was a Dan Zan Ryu man, as well as a Judoka, and he always choked out his new shodan, but never in public or at a promotion. He said it was not for show, but for the experience of being put out. He felt it was important to know, so we would be aware on the mat and remember to tap out soon enough if we went to tournament with our kyu ranks, so we would always be available to take care of them, whatever the outcome of our matches. It was sensei training: a practical lesson so we could be alert to take care of our responsibilities. He also taught us kappo and katsu, and made sure we knew it so that we could use it. It has been very a very useful gift.

About 1970, a young yondan from the Kodokan came to Eureka, CA, to live for the summer at the invitation of our judo club. Iketate Sensei was a college player, and he (at about 140 lbs.) took out one of my 255 lb. dojo mates with tsukkikomi jime in about three seconds. Ivan went into convulsions as soon as he went out, and Iketate immediately dropped to one knee, gave two abdominal thrusts with kiai, and checked Ivan's eyes and smiled before the referee's Ippon hand came down. My partner was immediately clear-headed, but he had no idea he had been out. So much for not teaching katsu at the Kodokan.

I continued the tradition of choking out my new shodan until I retired from regular teaching because of my Parkinson's disease, but I still use katsu, as well as seifukujitsu, when I visit the several dojos where I occasionaly drop in for clinics.

MarkF
11th October 2000, 11:30
I cannot say I have been choked out or have I ever seen anyone who has been choked out, but I have been "knocked" out. That was very silly and stupid, as I was not going to be thrown for ippon. I stuck my head out, and took it on the side of my head and face. I really don't remember how long, but I do remember coming to and seeing that my opponent was being attended for a bleeding, and broken fingernail. I thought I was imagining this, but the last thing I remembered was the throw attempt, and then this manicure. Nope, no attention was given, although it may have and I just don't remember. I decided from then on that an arm for a rollout would be a good idea.

The closest to this, though, was Gene LeBell demonstating a choke on me. I remember this, though. I can remember it happening so fast that when I went to tap out, my arm would not move. It just laid there. It felt like it was moving but it wasn't. Gene let up then and asked If I were OK. Nice sort of feller.

Mark

BTW: Gavin wrote a very nice essay on the function of the venous system and carotid arteries, and especially of choking reflexes. The only comment other than this, is that there is no blood in the brain or cerebrum, but there is cranial blood pressure, and cranial blood flow. The ventricles are the main blood transport from which the brain gets its oxygen. There are many, many others, but these are the main blood vessels in the head, and do lay across the brain, but are not part of it.

Parmenion
24th October 2000, 02:12
Just from reading here I am thinking that I wouldnt mind learning a bit of Katsu and koppo .. but I have no idea where I would learn it here in Perth. I have been choked unconcious once .. I didnt really notice it .. one minute, the strangle wasnt on properly, the next my vision was all fuzzy and I had a laughing second dan in front of me asking if I was alright. Until I was told about it I didnt even realise that I had slipped under for a second :)

MarkF
25th October 2000, 07:59
Hi, Tim,
Yep. That is how most describe being taken out. A second or two under and no memory of it. Usually, it lasts about the same time it took to cut off the carotids until unconciousness. There may be a lesson here, but I am not so sure it should be taken that far. After all, there is a reason for "mutual welfare."

Mark

efb8th
26th October 2000, 16:46
OK, so what about kappo? Are we ready to talk about it here, or is that another thread?

Regards,

davoravo
27th October 2000, 02:22
Dear Mark
If I may correct. There are blood vessels and blood in the brain (hence the blood flow). Blood vessels - arteries, capillaries and veins - penetrate into the substance of the brain same as any other organ. Some people would say they are separate from the brain due to the blood brain barrier but what this means is that the capillaries are tightly sealed so that fluid and large molecules cannot leak out (as opposed to other organs where the capillaries are sieve-like). However oxygen and carbon dioxide freely cross the barrier from the capillaries to the brain cells. The blood vessels are where the brain gets all its oxygen from.

The ventricles on the other hand are large fluid filled structures within the brain that act a bit like airbags to protect the brain from a blow to the head. They have no role in oxygen transport.

I hope you guys wanted to know this :D:

efb8th
27th October 2000, 02:52
Hi, David.

Always a pleasure getting a free lesson from someone who actually knows what he's talking about. Thanks. I think I finally grasped an anatomical function I never really fully understood.

davoravo
29th October 2000, 20:16
I've just realised Mark was confusing the meninges with the ventricles. The meninges are membranes that surround the brain and spinal cord and protect the brain and separate it from the rest of the body.

For a crude analogy imagine the skull is a big cardboard box, it is lined with a plastic bag (the meninges) filled with water (the CSF), floating in the water is a foam football (the brain). Inside the football is a water balloon (the ventricles). The brain is therefore cushioned on the outside by the CSF and the inside by the ventricles.

Interestingly this is the basis of knock out punches. If you rest a victim's head against a wall and then strike him you cannot knock him out (unless you hit him hard enough to smash the skull). However if you can cause his head to suddenly move and then stop you will cause and acceleration-deceleration injury. For example a front blow to the forehead will cause the skull to move backwards. The brain will follow slighhtly slower so that the space between the brain and the BACK of the skull will open up, creating a vacuum. Then as the skull suddenly stops moving the brain will slosh back and strike the inside of the skull at the back (contre coup injury).

Boxers achieve this most efficiently by imparting rotational energy to the head with a punch to the point or side of the jaw. My father tells me he was taught percussive atemi in Judo in the sixties to momentarily stun an opponent which presumably works the same way.

MarkF
30th October 2000, 09:12
Well, whatever, but I didn't want to pick apart the post, only to say the brain contains no blood vessels, or blood of any kind, therefore, cerebral blood pressure is a misnomer, as is a brain aneurism.

Mark

davoravo
30th October 2000, 22:22
There are blood vessels in the brain, they are dependent on blood pressure to push blood through them and they do get aneurysms.

davoravo
1st November 2000, 02:54
Found this article on aiki-web for anyone who is interested in whether chokes block airways or blood vessels.

http://www.aikiweb.com/techniques/gunther1.html

MarkF
1st November 2000, 12:13
I suppose this is the best way to explain choking and how it's done, in respect to blocking or impeding blood flow (in both directions) with a picture, the first is a pretty straight a head approach to the naked strangle: hadaka jime by Kyuzo Mifune S.

http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime2.jpg

Though this is rarely used in shiai this, and other chokes, whether purposeful or not, may choke the airway, as a second way to get a fairly quick tap-out. This choke rarely leads to passing out, but is really painful.

Nice shot to the LAPD in the article.:D

Mark

BTW: Photo is from the book: Canon of Judo-K. Mifune and is with (hopefully) permission of Ben Holmes. There are others, but this clearly is a choke to the trachea.

MarkF
1st November 2000, 12:20
http://www.rain.org/~bnholmes/hadakajime.jpg

This is from Kodokan Judo. Same choke, but there is room to dispute, I think.

As it was taught to me in the early/middle sixties, the primary goal of a choke is to impede blood flow, and therefore, oxygen to the brain. Much quicker and a fractured trachea is not a possible result.

Mark

BTW: Same source, Ben Holmes, for the picture here.

davoravo
1st November 2000, 23:10
Cool pics. They illustrate something the article made me think about. The airway is relatively rigid from the larynx (adam's apple). If you applied and airway choke HORIZONTALLY at this level I think you could cause discomfort but not block the airway without causing serious damage. However, above this the airway is muscular so a choke applied (similar to pic 2) upward and backward at an angle of 45 degrees toward the angle of the jaw might block the airway. What do you think?

The previous article quoted claiming that a Valsalva manoeuvre would cause loss of consciuosness suggests that a choke blocks the arteries in the neck. A Valsalva raises pressure in the chest therby decreasing venous blood flow from the body to the heart and therefore reduces cardiac output and arterial supply to the organs (the heart can only pump out what it gets in). If the arteries are already compressed further decreasing the amount of blood flowing through them would cause loss of consciuosness.

BTW that part about not being able to block blood supply to the brain is wrong. There is a big difference between slowly occluding a single carotid artery over twenty years (and developing a good bypass supply through the vertebral arteries) which you then UNblock in an operation and suddenly compressing both carotid arteries in a person who has not had time to develop a good bypass flow.

[Edited by davoravo on 11-01-2000 at 05:16 PM]