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don
7th December 2003, 17:55
I enjoyed the movie and I count it money well spent. I especially enjoyed Watanabe Ken. He has one of those very expressive faces that don't really demand dialog, like Morgan Freeman, Sean Connery, Takakura Ken, and Mifune Toshiro.

Nevertheless, as someone somewhat familiar with the times and history depicted, I couldn't help but notice some errata:

1. "Bushido"--As I understand it, the term didn't come into widespread usage in Japan until after 1911, with the translation INTO Japanese of Nitobe Inazo's "Bushido."

2. Spinning back kicks in swordplay?

3. "Put down your KATANA"--when Cruise was holding a BOKKEN.

No doubt others sharper than I found more.

don
7th December 2003, 18:16
Originally posted by don
back kicks in swordplay?

3. "Put down your KATANA"--when Cruise was holding a BOKKEN.

FWIW:

From http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=250477#post250477

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
My old sensei....during training he would always use the term katana, no matter what we were using at the time....His sensei, during a seminar I attended, did exactly the same thing, and he was a VERY traditional older Japanese gentleman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HanashiBugeisha
8th December 2003, 04:00
Lest we forget whenever they performed noto...or some reasonable facsimile thereof....there was always the sound of metal against metal as they put the katana back into the saya. I don't know about you, but never once have any of my katana made that noise...and if they did, I suspect I would be a bit miffed.

David T Anderson
8th December 2003, 05:04
Originally posted by HanashiBugeisha
....there was always the sound of metal against metal as they put the katana back into the saya.

Not to mention the constant 'shwinggg' on drawing during the battle scenes as the samurai charged toward their enemies.

It's amazing, considering how much in this movie was good, the number of stupid things they seemed to feel _had_ to be in there...like silly sound effects and black-suited ninja with ninjato....

K20Death
8th December 2003, 08:24
I dont know much at all about Kendo or Bushido. But the movie was great. Tom Cruise did alright with the amont of time that he had to study and learn proper sword fighting. The fact that its a movie you need the sound fx. Watching a movie with out proper sound editing is no fun at all.

Carlos Estrella
8th December 2003, 13:15
I know a few foley artists (the folks who make the "unusual" sound effects in many movies) and they've told me that in many cases, they HAVE to make the "wrong" sound because so many moviegoers EXPECT that type of sound. More to the point, the reason you hear a hammer cocked on a Glock (hammerless pistol) or hear metal on metal when a sword is withdrawn is because the film is using stock sounds that are labeled "sword being drawn," etc. (at least on smaller productions, from what I've been told) and they are in most cases NOT experts in what actual weapons sound like. (Also, from MY experience, the sound of a weapon being fired in real life is very different than almost EVERY movie I've seen, yet I still enjoy hearing as well as seeing my favorite movies.

BTW - did the Japanese match the subtitles when he said to put down the sword (referring to the bokken)?

Carlos

don
8th December 2003, 19:04
Originally posted by Carlos Estrella
BTW - did the Japanese match the subtitles when he said to put down the sword (referring to the bokken)?

What I recall is the term "katana" spoken when Cruise was holding a BOKKEN, a point addressed by Yagyu Kenshi in my second post above. Don't recall the subtitles. Hope this helps.

MarioS
9th December 2003, 00:03
Spoiler Alert below (though i assume it's a given in this thread)









When Cruise's character gives the Emperor the katana towards the end of the film. The Emperor begins to hand it back to him in a way you'd hand it to someone you trust. But then the camera angle switches and it's the other way around.

kruger
9th December 2003, 00:05
In the 1870's the firearms would have been using black powder as opposed to nitrocellulose based powders that were developed in the 1880's. Black powder generates large volumes of smoke.

You can see the smoke in some scenes (e.g. in the background of the riders as they smash through the skirmish line, the cannons firing), but for many scenes the amount of smoke generated was _way_ under what you would expect. Any time a massed volley was fired we should have seen a wall of smoke that you would have a hard time seeing through. The gatling guns would have provided enough smoke that their crews (and anyone near them) would not have been able to see a thing.

I can understand why they did it. The battle scenes where the smoke was reduced would have lost a great deal of impact if you couldn't see anything for the smoke. It was a reasonable compromise IMHO. :)

Mark Kruger

K20Death
9th December 2003, 01:43
This is kinda off topic but has anyone here ever read this book? I was thinking about getting it.

http://www.koryubooks.com/store/samuraicode.html

Im looking for a book that has a good in-depth look at Japanese History in the 17th and 18th Century.

TimothyScott
9th December 2003, 05:23
The Budoshoshinshu is an old text. After a brief search on Google, I found a free translation available here:

http://www.geocities.com/lowly_swordsman/classics.html

It's been a while since I've read it, but if I recall correctly, it was a series of essays during a period of time when the Samurai were on the decline.

Cheers,

K20Death
9th December 2003, 08:11
Thanks for your help. Does anyone else have anything to add on Japanese History during this time period?

K20Death
9th December 2003, 08:34
After reading threw some of the text, I noticed that he refers to Samurai and the time in the past tense. I thought the text was translated from someone who lived during that time period and made daily journals? Im a little lost.

Soulend
9th December 2003, 09:40
E-Budo rules require that you sign your posts with your real name.

don
9th December 2003, 18:05
Originally posted by K20Death
This is kinda off topic but has anyone here ever read this book? I was thinking about getting it.

http://www.koryubooks.com/store/samuraicode.html

Im looking for a book that has a good in-depth look at Japanese History in the 17th and 18th Century.

Coverning prehistory to present:

The Cambridge History of Japan 6 Volume Set by John Whitney Hall

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0521657288/103-5944610-5447064?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I15O76ZG3RTC5M&colid=3Q2KX809ZIEL2

17 th Century (I think)

Chushingura, the tale of the 47 RONIN

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231035314/qid=1070996401//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/103-5944610-5447064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

16 th Century

The Culture of Civil War in Kyoto by Mary Elizabeth Berry

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0520208773/103-5944610-5447064?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2C0PG5BBBTBQY&colid=3Q2KX809ZIEL2

14th Century?

Hired Swords: The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Early Japan by Karl F. Friday

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804719780/qid=1070996442//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/103-5944610-5447064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846#product-details

19th Century

Re: Tokugawa Yoshinobu

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568362463/qid=1070996156//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/103-5944610-5447064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Ryoma about one of the principles in the Meiji Restoration

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0966740173/qid=1070996324//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/103-5944610-5447064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

The Last Samurai : The Life and Battles of Saigo Takamori by Mark Ravina

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471089702/qid=1070996351//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5944610-5447064?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

K20Death
9th December 2003, 19:09
Sweet, thanks for all the help.

Cady Goldfield
15th December 2003, 14:42
If we're picking apart the <i>faux pas</i>, don't forget that Samurai were forbidden to handle or deal with money. So, the scene never would have happened where the Samurai were betting on how many moves it would take to defeat Algren.

On the other hand, it was a great scene, and the gambling gave some much-needed humor to the movie. So, Miss Samurai Manners forgives Zwick for letting Samurai gamble with money -- coins no less -- and have coins in their armor (another thing that kinda bugged me... like they had pockets in there? lol).

David T Anderson
15th December 2003, 18:39
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
If we're picking apart the <i>faux pas</i>, don't forget that Samurai were forbidden to handle or deal with money. So, the scene never would have happened where the Samurai were betting...

Samurai were _forbidden_ to handle money? I know that they weren't properly allowed to engage in business or be merchants or financiers, but not even pocket money? What did they do when they gambled...write cheques? :confused: I would agree that it didn't quite make sense for them to be _carrying_ money...there didn't seem to be very many shopping opportunities in that little village.

Personally, I think a lot of rules and regs applicable to a Bakufu garrison would have gone by the wayside among provincial samurai... The fact that they may have carried cash and didn't have regulation haircuts or weapons or whatever didn't seem very wrong to me... PLus, part of the point of the movie was that decadence had set into the samurai class...not that I would expect the filmmakers to pick up on fine details like that.

don
15th December 2003, 18:52
Originally posted by David T Anderson
Samurai were _forbidden_ to handle money?

DJM: I would guess that even if this were true, it was probably one of those regulations easily overlooked. Moreover, there was a definite shift from feudal to monetary exchange during the reign of the Tokugawa.

Personally, I think a lot of rules and regs applicable to a Bakufu garrison would have gone by the wayside among provincial samurai...

DJM: Especially with TOZAMA like the pugnacious Satsuma.

Cady Goldfield
15th December 2003, 22:55
David,
From what I've read of the samurai, in a variety of sources (I'll dig into references if I get a chance this week), samurai not only were not supposed to deal in business; they also were not supposed to handle money, keep accounts, etc. Their servants and retainers were supposed to do all of that for them.



The ideal was that they should be entirely ignorant of money and even the value of various coins and currency.

I'll see if I can find some precise paragraphs in reputable sources... :)

Don,
Your postulation sounds plausible, but those samurai looked a little too comfortable with the coinage, like they'd known their way around a wager and a 50 sen piece for many years. :D

Jock Armstrong
16th December 2003, 00:30
I know what you men Cads but that was in one of those "this is how it should be" type writings. Easy if you are a rich daimyo who has lots of flunkies but most samurai weren't. They paid for their meals and sake in inns with money they carried in a little purse bag or in their sleeve pockets. The edict was against Samurai engaging in business [a lot of them were because of poor pay and not being able to make ends meet].

Cady Goldfield
16th December 2003, 02:28
Hm. So, it's one of those "in an ideal world..." situations that most samurai couldn't live up to? Yeah, that figures! Ah well. And Don had a good point that that ragtag, motley mountain rebel holdout of aging samurai would very likely have to drop the niceties of "ideal society."

Another fine ideal shot to hell... :D

Anyway, the wagering scene was one of the best moments of humor in the movie (easily beating out the scene with Algren doing the "bujutsu dance" in his shiny new hakama and kimono).

Martyn van Halm
16th December 2003, 08:53
Thanks for the links... very educating...

Mitch Saret
16th December 2003, 17:54
Despite the innaccuracies, the overeager foley artists, and other assorted minutia, I enjoyed the movie. My wife, on the other hand, tought it was way too gory. I'll get it when it comes out on DVD because I am interested in the extras.

On the other hand, I don't think it will do much for local dojo. Few people get interested in swordwork. I am just learning myself, so I would not be a qualified teacher. The movie is way to violent for kids and a lot of schools have kids as there bread and butter. It should not be used as an adjunct to marketing your school.

But that's just my 2 cents worth.

Overall...a good movie.

Jock Armstrong
17th December 2003, 04:03
Most newbies drop it after their first crack on the fingers when they don't parry correctly in kumitachi- the wannabes will probably expire after their first suburi session..........

Rennis
17th December 2003, 17:50
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
If we're picking apart the <i>faux pas</i>, don't forget that Samurai were forbidden to handle or deal with money. So, the scene never would have happened where the Samurai were betting on how many moves it would take to defeat Algren.

On the other hand, it was a great scene, and the gambling gave some much-needed humor to the movie. So, Miss Samurai Manners forgives Zwick for letting Samurai gamble with money -- coins no less -- and have coins in their armor (another thing that kinda bugged me... like they had pockets in there? lol).

If you want a nice myth busting read on members of the warrior class not knowing anything about money and not gambling you should read "Musui's Story - The Autobiography of a Tokugawa Samurai". The guy goes on endlessly about needing x amount of money for this and that, not having enough money to go out gambling, etc. From my understanding gambling was somewhat of a serious problem among the warrior class, especially as the Edo period went on (hence all the writtings saying a proper warrior shouldn't gamble, etc). echnically they weren't supposed to do it, but they did (and often). Technically samurai weren't "supposed" to go to the pleasure districts either, yet there are endless period documents about them going there and blowing all their money on women and gambling.

Somewhere in my notes somewhere I even have referneces of some daimyo (i believe in the Tohoku area) who were openly critical of the idea that warriors weren't supposed to know anything about money as they felt, rightly so, that they would be unable to properly manage their domains without a good knowledge of money, math, etc.

Also in the movie, the money wasn't actually in their armor, it was in their kimono sleeves which basically serves as the pocket in traditional dress :D

For what its worth,
Rennis Buchner

Cady Goldfield
17th December 2003, 18:23
Yeah, I'm sure that most samurai were just fightin' schmoes. The ideals gave them a model to shoot for, but I doubt many lived up to them. Most were lucky to just be able to fight well.

It occurred to me that a main source of info on samurai -- Inazo Nitobe -- was drawing from a lot of written (but unconfirmed) sources when he wrote his book on bushido. I remember that that's where I saw one reference to samurai not being allowed to deal with money or the banalities of commerce. But, he was trying to cast the samurai in an ideal light for Westerners to be suitably awed by. ;)

David T Anderson
17th December 2003, 18:45
Part of the difficulty is knowing what time period is being referred to when trying to figure out 'what the samurai did [or didn't do...]'. I'm sure there were lots of variations and differences between the early days and the end of the Tokugawa regime. It would be like discussing the activities of British knights without knowing whether you meant the Post-Norman era or the reign of Victoria...

Cady Goldfield
17th December 2003, 19:13
Interesting point. Such institutions, when established, are usually based upon the ideals of their founders. But of course, a lot gets lost in succeeding generations.

Look what's happened to the vaunted Knights of the Round Table in the time of Arthur. They used to have Lancelot, Gawain and Galahad. Now they have Mick Jagger and Elton John. :D

Times and values do change.

hyohakushado
24th December 2003, 00:01
almost every traditional japanese sword art refers to the bokken/ bokuto as a katana during training in order to keep some aspect of realism and to not forget what the art was developed for. i and all of my instructors were taught to always consider a bokken as a katana, even if its during training.
just like in the military today, unit commanders say "there will be training on such-and-such today". and then during the training, everything is undergone as if it was a real combat situation.


as far as the kicking during the kenjutsu training, that is also a part of the samurai arts. that could have been part of several different styles practiced during the edo/ meiji periods of japan, i.e.. samurai jiu-jutsu, taijutsu, and quite possibly korean tae kyun.
the way martial arts were practiced then were to kill your opponent or leave him too wounded to attack, by any means necessary, NOT to pull punches like in sport martial arts of today. and they trained and practiced as if their life depended on it at that moment.just because they were practicing with a sword doesnt mean that's the only way they're going to overcome an opponent.

don
24th December 2003, 16:24
Originally posted by hyohakushado
....as far as the kicking during the kenjutsu training, that is also a part of the samurai arts. that could have been part of several different styles practiced during the edo/ meiji periods...quite possibly korean tae kyun.

Thank you for your post.

I'd like to hear more about Korean influence on Jpn Bujutsu.

hyohakushado
24th December 2003, 18:25
well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea. all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc..
with all the mixing between the cultures, some of the martial arts styles started incorporating a lot of different things to round out the art and make it more effective in combat. but like i said, each style has its own version of how an art evolved.

in korea, there were several different schools of tae kyun, which are now the ancestors of tae kwon do and several other korean arts.
i dont think anyone really knows if the japanese were regularly teaching kicks with weapons training, or if they learned it from the koreans, but its a fact that the koreans had arts that heavily concentrated on kicks during combat, and they taught this to the japanese before and during the edo period.

each warrior or warlord that had access to the knowledge and training of the korean's warrior arts definitely had an advantage on the battlefields when it came to hand to hand combat. each korean style might have had its own traditional teachings, but since it was relatively new in japan, the moves individually more or less merged in with the japanese traditions and katas for a particular style to make a "japanese" style.

bujutsu, for example, is a collection of several different martial arts taught to be used on the battlefields. it includes: hand-hand, grappling, and weapons. the word itself (bujutsu="warrior art") is all-encompassing of any style or combination of styles taught for combat purposes, not sport.

some styles of bujutsu are more classical and traditional, while others were only taught within a certain family or town. they all may have the same roots in combat, but as different a style and regimen of training as each family that taught it.


from the movie though, since they didnt really differentiate exactly what stlye was what, it cant be determined what he was supposed to be doing.


hope this helps some.

don
25th December 2003, 20:46
hyohakushado,

Thank you for your detailed answer. I don't know enough of the subject to comment further, but I should think that it will elicit further posts.

Happy Holidays

Joseph Svinth
26th December 2003, 08:20
For photos of kicks done by jujutsuka K. Higashi ca. 1905, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm .

As for Satsuma, remember that it had a budget equivalent to the Tokugawa's. How? Smuggling Chinese and European goods in through Ryukyus, and then not declaring the income. See Donald Keene, "The Japanese Discovery of Europe, 1720-1830" (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, revised edition, 1969). Thus, Nagasaki merchants and Satsuma samurai probably had a concept of coin equal to anyone's in Tokyo.

Soulend
26th December 2003, 10:51
Mr. Benadom, would you be so kind as to tell me a single form of koryu kenjutsu that includes kicking in it's curriculum?


all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc..
Do you have a reference for this?

don
26th December 2003, 18:08
Soulend
Location: Beaufort, SC
__________________
David F. Craik
--------------
Be polite. Be professional.
But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
______________________________________________

Whew!

Lucky for those Yankees that they had the heavy industry...

Tip o' the Mint Julip to yo...ya'll.

Happy Holidays!

hyohakushado
26th December 2003, 20:21
if you noticed throughout the whole movie, there were only 4 times that a pure style was preformed: 1: group iaido in the field, #2 jiu-jutsu by the side of the road in the village, and #3 kyudo/ kyujutsu, and the randori against 3 armed attackers.

if you want to discount the scene where he was kicking while using the bokuto, then you also have to discount the scene where they were using empty hand against the katana(s) (randori) since that is not a part of kenjutsu either. the samurai arts, as stated above, are combinations of styles and moves effective in combat. and also, as stated before, nowhere in the movie did the characters say "now i will be practicing this style or that style. the closest koryu that incorporates kicking and kenjutsu is aiki-jutsu. you might also want to look into Yoroi Kumi Uchi, or Himitsu Kempo or even ninjutsu. all of those are koryu, and incorporate kicks and kenjutsu.
one thing you have to remember is there are no rules when it comes to life or death combat.
that means that all the formalities and "properness" of a style go right out the window. for example, while doing iai kata, there are so many breaths between a strike and chiburi, or so many steps to take back after a strike, etc.... noe of that means anything in the heat of battle. the purpose of realistic training (like in the movie) is to keep yourself alive longer in a battle.
in fact, i think that the only job in the military, during a battle, that relies on the exact techniques used during training (breathing, motions, etc..), is that of a sniper.

Jin
27th December 2003, 03:56
When I did koryu kenjutsu, we did kumiuchujitsu.. which is armored grappling with a yori-doshi, an armor-piercing dagger. And we practice not straight out kicks but more or less stomps and shoves with the foot. And also realize as stated above, that during the heat of battle... I'm pretty sure that when two warriors came tsuba to tsuba, the occasional strike to the face with the left hand happened.. even though its not in any kenjutsu curicculum(sp?) that I know of...

like Capt Jack Sparrow said... "Anything a man can do.... he will do":D

Best,

Brian James

hyohakushado
27th December 2003, 04:14
as requested a few mesages up, here are several different references that detail the history between japan and korea.


Choson: Korea-Japan Relations



Aston, W.G. "Hideyoshi's Invasion of Korea." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan 6 (1878): 227-245; 9 (1881): 87-93, 213-222; 11 (1883): 117-125.

Aston, W.G. Hideyoshi's Invation [sic] of Korea. Tokyo: Ryubunkan, 1907.

Atwell, William S. "A Seventeenth-Century 'General Crisis' in East Asia?" Modern Asian Studies 24:4 (1990): 661-682.

Austin, Audrey. "Admiral Yi Sun-sin: National Hero." Korean Culture 9:2 (Summer 1988): 4-15.

Ballard, George Alexander. "The Korean War of the Sixteenth Century." In The Influence of the Sea on the Political History of Japan. New York: E.P. Dutton & Co., 1921.

Ballard, George Alexander. The Influence of the Sea on the Political History of Japan. New York: E.P. Dutton & Co., 1921.

Bak, Hae-ill. "A Short Note on the Iron-clad Turtle Boats of Admiral Yi Sun-sin." Korea Journal 17:1 (January 1977): 34-39.

Chung, Chai-sik. "Changing Korean Perceptions of Japan on the Eve of Modern Transformation: The Case of Neo-Confucian Yangban Intellectuals." Korean Studies 19 (1995): 39-50.

Chung, Chai-sik. "Changing Korean Perceptions of Japan on the Eve of the Modern Transformation: The Case of Neo-Confucian Yangban Intellectuals." In Helen Hardacre, ed., with Adam L. Kern. New Directions in the Study of Meiji Japan. Leiden: Brill, 1997.

Eikenberry, Karl W. "The Imjin War." Military Review 68:2 (February 1988): 74-82.

Elison, George. "The Priest Keinen and His Account of the Campaign in Korea, 1597-1598: An Introduction." In Motoyama Yukihiko kyoju taikan kinen rombunshu henshu iinkai, ed. Nihon kyoikushi ronso: Motoyama Yukihiko kyoju taikan kinen rombunshu. Kyoto: Shibunkaku shuppan, 1988.

Elisonas, Jurgis. "The Inseparable Trinity: Japan's Relations with China and Korea." In John Whitney Hall, ed. The Cambridge History of Japan, volume 4: Early Modern Japan. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991.

Ha, Tae-hung, tr., and Sohn Pow-key, ed. Nanjung Ilgi: War Diary of Admiral Yi Sun-sin. Seoul: Yonsei University Press, 1977.

Ha, Tae-hung, tr., and Sohn Pow-key, ed. Imjin Changch'o: Admiral Yi Sun-sin's Memorials to Court. Seoul: Yonsei University Press, 1981.

Hamada, Atsushi. "The Japanese Language as Recorded by Chinese and Koreans: Materials for the Historical Study of Japanese." In Zoku Chosen shiryo ni yoru Nihongo kenkyu. Kyoto: Rinsen shoten, 1983.

Hur, Nam-lin. "A Korean Envoy Encounters Tokugawa Japan: Shin Yuhan and the Korean Embassy of 1719." (Aichi daigaku kokusai komyunikeeshon gakkai) Bunmei 21 4 (2000:3): 61-73.

Kamiya, Nobuyuki. "Japanese Control of Ezochi and the Role of Northern Koryo." Acta Asiatica 67 (1994): 49-68.

Kang, Etsuko Hae-Jin. Diplomacy and Ideology in Japanese-Korean Relations: From the Fifteenth to the Eighteenth Century. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1997.

Kawazoe, Shoji. "Japan and East Asia." In Kozo Yamamura, ed. The Cambridge History of Japan, volume 3: Medieval Japan. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1990.

Kim, Kichung. "Resistance, Abduction, and Survival: The Documentary Literature of the Imjin War (1592-8)." Korean Culture 20:3 (Fall 1999): 20-29.

Kim, Tae-chun. "Yi Sun-sin's Fame in Japan." Journal of Social Sciences and Humanities 47 (June 1978): 93-107.

Kim, Young-Bong. "The Musical Activities of Korean Emissaries (Choson-T'ongshinsa) to Nikko Japan: An Observation Based on Written Records." In Sang-Oak Lee and Duk-Soo Park, eds. Perspectives on Korea. Sydney: Wild Peony, 1998.

Koh, Sung-jae. "A History of the Cotton Trade between Korea and Japan, 1423-1910." Asian Economies 12 (March 1975): 5-16.

Lee, Hoon. "Dispute over Territorial Ownership of Tokdo in the Late Chos˘n Period." Korea Observer 28:3 (Autumn 1997): 389-421.

Lee, Hyoun-jong. "Korean Influence on Japanese Culture (II), (III)." Korean Frontier 1:7 (September 1970): 18-20, 31; 1:9 (November 1970): 16-18, 33.

Lee, Yong-hee. "The Spiritual Aspect of Korea-Japan Relations: A Historical Review of Complications Arising from the Consciousness of Peripheral Culture." Social Science Journal 3 (1975): 20-45.

Lewis, James B. "Beyond Sakoku: The Korean Envoy to Edo and the 1719 Diary of Shin Yu-han." Korea Journal 25:11 (November 1985): 22-41.

Lewis, James B. "Eighteenth-Century Korean and Japanese Images of Each Other." Journal of Social Sciences and Humanities 65 (June 1987): 87-100.

Marder, Arthur J. "From Jimmu Tenno to Perry: Sea Power in Early Japanese History." The American Historical Review 51:1 (October 1945): 20-31.

Maske, Andrew. "The Continental Origins of Takatori Ware: The Introduction of Korean Potters and Technology to Japan through the Invasions of 1592-1598." Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan, fourth series 9 (1994): 43-61.

McCune, George. "The Exchange of Envoys between Korea and Japan during the Tokugawa Period." In John A. Harrison, ed. Japan: Enduring Scholarship Selected from The Far Eastern Quarterly - The Journal of Asian Studies 1941-1971. Tucson, AZ: The University of Arizona Press, 1972.

Neves, Jaime Ramalhete. "The Portuguese in the Im-Jim War?" Review of Culture 18 (1994): 20-24.

Park, Seong-Rae. "Korea-Japan Relations and the History of Science and Technology." Korea Journal 32:4 (Winter 1992): 80-88.

Park, Yune-hee. Admiral Yi Sun-shin and His Turtleboat Armada: A Comprehensive Account of the Resistance of Korea to the 16th Century Japanese Invasion. Seoul: Shinsaeng Press, 1973.

Park, Yune-hee. Admiral Yi Sun-shin and His Turtleboat Armada. Seoul: The Hanjin Publishing Company, 1978.

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John Lindsey
27th December 2003, 05:28
well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea. all throughout japanese history, the japanese sent out raiders into china and korea to "import" people to perform various functions such as swordsmiths, clothes and shoe makers, scribes, slaves, warriors, teachers, etc

Maybe Koreans think this, but I doubt we can find one Western historian who would even consider that Japanese martial arts are based on Korean arts, if that is what you are saying. Koreans are a proud people, but some of them have a problem in relating the history of their martial arts with reality.

The best researched article on this subject is "The History and Development of Tae Kyon by Robert Young. It was in the vol. 2, number 2 1999 issue of The Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

Soulend
27th December 2003, 10:47
Originally posted by don
Soulend
Location: Beaufort, SC
__________________
David F. Craik
--------------
Be polite. Be professional.
But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
______________________________________________

Whew!

Lucky for those Yankees that they had the heavy industry...

Tip o' the Mint Julip to yo...ya'll.

Happy Holidays!

I'm only stationed down here, and as neither I nor any of my ancestors were born in the U.S., my family had nothing to do with the U.S. Civil War. The 'Yankees' were quite safe from us.;)

John Linker
19th January 2004, 00:21
The only thing that i noticed that may have been a faux pas (other than the ninja, the use of the word "bushido" in 1876 and a few other minor things) was the scene where Nobutada allows the government troops to cut off his topknot. My opinion may just be based on those "how it should have been" texts as, of course, i dont know how a real meiji period samurai would have reacted but i would have thought that no samurai would allow his topknot to be cut off as that is what defined him as samurai. To lose that would surely mean losing all his honour and to give it up without so much as a fight just because Tom Cruise asks you to seems a bit odd....anyone have any thoughts on this?

Excalibor
20th January 2004, 15:36
Greetings,


Originally posted by hyohakushado
well, the way i've heard it (every style has a different story), but all martial arts originated in korea.

This is typical thinking from Koreans, however it has little historical (if any) support. We may as well assert that all martial arts come from China, as Koreans were basically Mongolians/Mandarin for a long time.


... in korea, there were several different schools of tae kyun, which are now the ancestors of tae kwon do and several other korean arts.
i dont think anyone really knows if the japanese were regularly teaching kicks with weapons training, or if they learned it from the koreans, but its a fact that the koreans had arts that heavily concentrated on kicks during combat, and they taught this to the japanese before and during the edo period.


Most, if not all, systems of close-quarters combat in Japan com from sumai, which is the ancestor of nowadays Sumo. Sumai was a brutal unarmed combat, already famous at the Nara period (709-795 CE) (originated from prehistorical Chikara-Kurabe which can probably be equated to the Greek pancratios):


from Google's cache (http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:qFXWwV4Hrp4J:www.ezresult.com/article/Ju-jitsu+sumo+origins+sumai+nara+period&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
Fighting forms have existed in Japan for centuries. The first references to such unarmed combat arts or systems can be found in the earliest so-called historical records of Japan, the Kojiki (Record of Ancient Matters) and the Nihon Shoki (Chronicles of Japan), which relate the mythological creation of the country and the establishment of the Imperial family. Other glimpses can be found in the older records and pictures depicting sumai (or sumo) no sechie, a rite of the Imperial Court in Nara and Kyoto performed for purposes of divination and to help ensure a bountiful harvest. There is a famous story of a warrior Nomi no Sekuni of Izumo who defeated and killed Tajima no Kehaya in Shimane prefecture while in the presence of Emperor Suinin. Descriptions of the techniques used during this encounter included striking, throwing, restraining & weaponry. These systems of unarmed combat began to be known as Nihon koryu jujutsu (japanese old-style jujutsu), among other related terms, during the Muromachi period (1333-1568), according to densho (transmission scrolls) of the various ryu-ha (martial traditions, "schools") and historical records.
(emphasis mine)

Most Koryű jűjutsu/kenp˘/yawara schools extant today have unarmed, armed with knife and armed with wakizashi/sh˘t˘ tecniques within their close-quarters combat syllabus, irregardless of their other arts like kenjustu, batt˘justsu, yari/naginata, etc...



each warrior or warlord that had access to the knowledge and training of the korean's warrior arts definitely had an advantage on the battlefields when it came to hand to hand combat. each korean style might have had its own traditional teachings, but since it was relatively new in japan, the moves individually more or less merged in with the japanese traditions and katas for a particular style to make a "japanese" style.


Kicks are a pretty unefficient way of killing someone armored with a yoroi. Most you can get (besides pain in your leg/knee) is getting the samurai on his back. That could be okay to next jump over him and trying to sneak your tant˘ (or better, his tant˘) through any weak spot in the armor. Besides, do you know how hard can be kicking a human tank armed with a sword? (and keeping your leg? leaving aside the fact that the battlefield would be filled with corpses, stones and holes and broken weapons and banners... even if your armor let you get your leg off the ground, you wouldn't want to get off balance even if the Tengu were beaking you in the kabuto...)

Kicking is not for the battlefield, but for the peasant/unarmored scene of the streets of Ky˘t˘ or Ed˘, and at that time, while exposure to Korean arts existed, indeed, the Japanese already had centuries of punching, grappling and kicking traditions. Besides also the Koreans were influenced by the Japanese, "recent" example: Hapkid˘...


...
from the movie though, since they didnt really differentiate exactly what stlye was what, it cant be determined what he was supposed to be doing.


hope this helps some.

The samurai in the Satsuma rebellion against the Emperor Meiji were probably formed in the Jigen-ryű Sobujutsu school. Not that that's what shown in the movie, chanbara is chanbara, but that 's the school they were supposed to know, from historical accounts.

best regards,

L-Fitzgerald
27th January 2004, 11:04
Chinese historical records, and Japanese history identify that the ancient kindom od Da Wa was settled by pirates that came from the southern regions of Korea. In fact the Japanese even have an old saying in this regard "scratch a Japanese business man and you'll find a pirate!'

But, hey its just a movie that should be taken with a very, very large grain of salt!

meat
29th January 2004, 11:57
This may not be a faux pas, but didn't samurai all wear their hair in a similar fashion to "Bob" in feudal Japan? It seemed like there was a very wide array of hairstyles in the movie...