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Mekugi
8th December 2003, 16:31
Rumor has it that there is a good deal of iai in SMR...even though they are not preserved as "kata" themselves (or alone as kata).

-R

ulvulv
8th December 2003, 17:20
Originally posted by Mekugi
Rumor has it that there is a good deal of iai in SMR...even though they are not preserved as "kata" themselves (or alone as kata).

-R

beside the bokuto-work in the jo-kata and the kenjutsukata?
I am confused, using "they" and "themselves" as a reference to iai(?), adds even more pain and misery to my heated brain. ;)

Andy Watson
8th December 2003, 17:20
I was only aware of the kenjutsu. Can this be true?

Meik/Diane?

Mekugi
8th December 2003, 18:49
What I mean is, there are no "Iai kata" per se, but the Iai is within the kata. Think of the chudan...

-R

Tim Atkinson
8th December 2003, 22:22
I have been told that Mr Quintan Chambers has put together a body of waza based upon the batto that appear within the SMR kata. In most cases the swordsman is prevented from completing the draw. But I believe that Mr Chambers has taken them to there natural conclusion.

A few of the guys here in Australia have seen Mr Chambers and there has been talk of practising the batto as an adjunct to our normal training.

It is an area of the SMR syllabus that could be considered under taught. By this I mean the absence of any basic kenjutsu waza or kihon. I understand that Mr Skoss has put together a collection of kenjutsu waza that he has termed toho, and I believe that his available to students to better acquaint themselves with the sword.

I have asked my seniors and it has been explained that in the past a new student to SMR would of had previous kenjutsu training.

Do others training in SMR also train in outside kenjutsu or iai classes?

gmlc123
9th December 2003, 00:23
Hi Tim

This may have been misunderstood a little, when Nishioka Sensei gave a talk at a past Seminar he pointed out that in Modern times (and he included himself in this category) SMR practitioners must learn to use the sword from scratch and correctly in order to help lift the Jodoka's level. And that we now learn Jo before Sword.

In that context he mentioned that in the past ie. 17th & 18th Century that the Kuroda-han Samurai (ashigari) were already very proficient swordsman, and would learn the entire Jo kata syllabus in about 6-12 months. Primarily, because they had an understanding of ma-ai, de-ai and hasuji from their Kenjutsu.

So in reality Nishioka Sensei was referring to a pre-Meiji time period I believe.

Greg




Originally posted by Tim Atkinson
I have asked my seniors and it has been explained that in the past a new student to SMR would of had previous kenjutsu training.

Tim Atkinson
9th December 2003, 00:37
Hi Greg,

I believe that I understand what Nishioka Sensei was saying. My concern is that there is no kenjutsu waza from which a new student can become familiar with the sword other than through the kata themselves.

As I am called upon to act as the sword for those that I train with, I am always aware of how poor my sword skills within SMR are. However, as there is no ken kihon, I can only improve through repartition of the kata.

I am interested therefore why a body of waza or kihon have not been established to allow the majority of students who train to improve their sword work.

I therefore ask other SMR students what sword training they undertake and whether or not it is outside of the their SMR training.

gmlc123
9th December 2003, 01:00
Understand..

Re: Sword basics. Usually at Nishioka Sensei's Seminars we do practice some basic sword drills, and Mike has some pretty good ones that I use often by myself as warmups or for hasuji practice.

In a lot of Arai-san's classes he starts with some sword drills, then Uchikomi Jodan with sword b4 Jo.

In my case, have done some MJER Iai.. but prefer mostly to just practice Uchidachi's side of the SMR kata concentrating on correct targets.



Originally posted by Tim Atkinson

I am interested therefore why a body of waza or kihon have not been established to allow the majority of students who train to improve their sword work.

I therefore ask other SMR students what sword training they undertake and whether or not it is outside of the their SMR training.

Tim Atkinson
9th December 2003, 01:15
Greg,

Thought that would be the case. We all do something, but nothing is actually part of the syllabus.

Mike's drills are good and I enjoy Arai-san's exercises. I also practise the uchidachi side, but with an iai-to so I get that nice whistle when the hasuji is correct, and completing the cuts without interference from the jo.

My big hang up is that I have had previous kenjutsu training that at odds in some areas with the SMR way. Therefore I find that I spend as much time practising the uchidachi side in order to re-program my responses.

I would be interested to hear about the toho that Mr Skoss has formulated. The web site only describes it as a set of sword exercises.

Andy Watson
9th December 2003, 08:25
At our dojo and in the dojo I first trained at in Japan, Jodo is taught along with MSR Iaido. Although originating from two quite different sources, the two compliment each other quite nicely.

everest
10th December 2003, 05:25
i've been studying smr under meik skoss for about 2 months.my home dojo incorporates meik's toho curriculum (along with jo ) which i also take because i had minimal sword work in the past.in my "rookie" opinion the toho sword work definately compliments the jo work.
scott

Tim Atkinson
10th December 2003, 05:32
Scott,

How does the toho compare to /work with, the (Kasumi) Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu?

everest
10th December 2003, 07:16
as far as smr ,i haven't gotten into the sword work yet. still learning the kihon. so i have no idea.but for some body like myself with little sword experience,the toho curriculum works well.i would at some point expand my sword beyond smr/toho but for now, i have more then enough material to study.
by the way ,as i'm new to koryu,i learn quite a bit from all the posts . thanks,
scott

Ong Han Beng
10th December 2003, 08:40
the sword techniques in SMR that I am studying, are slightly different from the ken & iaijutsu techniques I've been taught.

Basically, I kept my ken techniques seperate from what I am taught in SMR, as the roots of both Ryus maybe different.

I remember an article in Diane Skoss' book on training in more then one ryuha. I find that article very valid in my case. Keep the two different school's techniques seperate. Any thoughts on this.

Ong Han Beng

Robert Wolfe
10th December 2003, 18:26
The toho curriculum developed by Meik Skoss is an introduction to proper fundamentals of swordsmanship, based primarily on the kendo kata but also incorporating a number of his own drills, exercises and techniques. The curriculum is used most often to provide persons practicing karate or aikido (or some other taijutsu) a chance to broaden their training to include weapons if their normal routine doesn’t grant that exposure. As he teaches the kendo kata, Meik also teaches how to experiment with the forms, so although the curriculum is limited in breadth, it can provide considerable depth of study. So far as I can determine, the distinguishing characteristics of Meik’s take on the kendo kata are use of (in some cases) older versions of the forms, and the expectation of bringing some real juice to the execution of the kata (i.e., if you’ve never almost wet yourself practicing kendo kata, you’ve never practiced with Meik).

At our dojo, we use Meik’s toho — combined with the ZNKR iaido taught us by Pam Parker of the Ken-Zen dojo in NYC — as the basis for our swordsmanship class. The swordsmanship class provides a training opportunity for persons not ready or able to make the commitment to training in a koryu, as well as those who for one reason or another might not be accepted by a koryu.

More pertinent to this discussion is the fact Meik has said he believes the kendo kata can provide a valuable training experience for practitioners of SMR Jo, because the kata present some principles in a different light than in SMR, as well as present some aspects of swordsmanship not addressed as directly in SMR (he didn’t elaborate, so I can’t provide specifics). It’s true that the kendo kata differ from Shinto-ryu kenjutsu in kamae as well as other fundamental aspects, but Meik has also said it would be interesting to experiment with executing the kendo kata with a Shinto-ryu “flavor.”

Tim Atkinson
10th December 2003, 23:23
Robert,

Thanks for the low down, sounds like a very worthwhile body of study.

Ong,

I known exactly what you mean, and that is my biggest hurdle to overcome. I have been training in a family kenjutsu ryu for about 15 years, and my body is conditioned to respond is a curtain way to curtain attacks.

But that makes SMR all the more enjoyable as it forces me to not only break down the kata of that ryu, but means I must also pull apart the kenjutsu kata that I have learnt in order to separate the ryu, one from the other, both in body and mind.

I have also read Diane's article and the longer I train in SMR the more evident Diane's points come across. It must be a well centred person who can achieve high standing in more than one koryu similtaniously. Let alone 3 or 4 that a few individuls have achieved.

I certainly dont include myself in such a group, but would hope that I can gain some peace of mind in my own training in the years to come.

Mekugi
11th December 2003, 11:10
<bump>
I thought this thread was going to be a problem. Turns out very interesting and informative.

Thanks guys!

-Russ