Secrets of the Samurai/ Ratti, Westbrook?

[Brent Kistner]

i am curious as to if anyone here has anythign bad to say about the book.. i.e. is the information in the book well documented and truthful? or are there inconsistancies and the worth of the information in this book...

i was also curious as to your (the martial arts community here) opinion of the book "Hagakure", written by Yamamoto Tsunemoto.


thank you,
Brent Kistner

[Earl Hartman]

"Secrets of the Samurai" is, hands down, absolutely one of the worst books about budo ever written. The authors are obviously armchair theorists and academics who, as far as I can tell, did no original research at all. The book reads like they just piled all of the other "Zen combat"-type books in a big pile on the floor and then went over them in a series of skips, hops, and short jumps, being careful to give everything a faux-sophisticated sheen to disguise how derivative everything was. Pompous, pretentious Zenny "OOommmmm...." airy-fairy, mistake-riddled academic-speak psychobabble-style writing, fancy-schamncy straight-out-of-the-movies "look how cool and Zen the samurai are" pictures, etc. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever except for the fact that its weight and heft would make it a deadly projectile weapon if it were dropped on someone's head. I have a copy which I use to prop up the short leg on my coffee table. If the paper on which it is printed weren't so thick, I would put it on top of the commode where it might be put to some honest use.

[Brent Kistner]

can you point out anything in particular? or is this one of those things where everyone just knows that the book is garbage and therefore there really is no point in making any specific points to disprove the book as vaible? i.e. what particular examples of incorrect information stick out in your mind?


just curious
thanks again,
brent

[Earl Hartman]

I have practiced kyudo for 30 years, and their section on kyudo was riddled with errors. I assume the rest of the book was the same.

What I hated most was the style of writing and the drawings. It was all just pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

[Budoka 34]

While my backgroung is in karate and jiujitsu I've heard from people who study nihon kobudo who also have nothing nice to say about the book.
It was dry and pretentious, but I really enjoyed the pictures.:D

I use it as a book end to keep my other titles in line.

:smilejapa

[Mark Tankosich]

Secrets of the Samurai" is, hands down, absolutely one of the worst books about budo ever written. The authors are obviously armchair theorists and academics who, as far as I can tell, did no original research at all. The book reads like they just piled all of the other "Zen combat"-type books in a big pile on the floor and then went over them in a series of skips, hops, and short jumps, being careful to give everything a faux-sophisticated sheen to disguise how derivative everything was. Pompous, pretentious Zenny "OOommmmm...." airy-fairy, mistake-riddled academic-speak psychobabble-style writing, fancy-schamncy straight-out-of-the-movies "look how cool and Zen the samurai are" pictures, etc. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever except for the fact that its weight and heft would make it a deadly projectile weapon if it were dropped on someone's head. I have a copy which I use to prop up the short leg on my coffee table. If the paper on which it is printed weren't so thick, I would put it on top of the commode where it might be put to some honest use.

Jeez, Earl, no need to mince words: Tell us what you really think!;)

Best,

Mark

[CEB]

Originally posted by Brent Kistner
can you point out anything in particular? or is this one of those things where everyone just knows that the book is garbage and therefore there really is no point in making any specific points to disprove the book as vaible? ...


Yep Pretty much.

These are the same authors that wrote The Dynamic Sphere. I don't do Aikido but this book looks like a pretty theoretical work on Aikido principles. Is this a decent Aikido book? I don't have it but I have "Secrets of the Samurai". I guess that is why I'm afraid to buy The Dynamic Sphere.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

[incoqnito]

Originally posted by CEB
Is this a decent Aikido book?
We got a translated copy in our dojo. I haven't read it yet but I will look into it in a week or two. Some parts should be ok where as others are useless (to us). Fx the technical part which has nice drawings but lacks finesse.

[Matt Wolfson]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
"Secrets of the Samurai" is, hands down, absolutely one of the worst books about budo ever written. The authors are obviously armchair theorists and academics who, as far as I can tell, did no original research at all. The book reads like they just piled all of the other "Zen combat"-type books in a big pile on the floor and then went over them in a series of skips, hops, and short jumps, being careful to give everything a faux-sophisticated sheen to disguise how derivative everything was. Pompous, pretentious Zenny "OOommmmm...." airy-fairy, mistake-riddled academic-speak psychobabble-style writing, fancy-schamncy straight-out-of-the-movies "look how cool and Zen the samurai are" pictures, etc. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever except for the fact that its weight and heft would make it a deadly projectile weapon if it were dropped on someone's head. I have a copy which I use to prop up the short leg on my coffee table. If the paper on which it is printed weren't so thick, I would put it on top of the commode where it might be put to some honest use.

You clearly tell what you dont like about this book. I was wondering which books you do recommmend?
-Littlepond

[Mekugi]

The pictures well kewl though (notice I didn't say accurate).


Originally posted by Earl Hartman
"Secrets of the Samurai" is, hands down, absolutely one of the worst books about budo ever written. The authors are obviously armchair theorists and academics who, as far as I can tell, did no original research at all. The book reads like they just piled all of the other "Zen combat"-type books in a big pile on the floor and then went over them in a series of skips, hops, and short jumps, being careful to give everything a faux-sophisticated sheen to disguise how derivative everything was. Pompous, pretentious Zenny "OOommmmm...." airy-fairy, mistake-riddled academic-speak psychobabble-style writing, fancy-schamncy straight-out-of-the-movies "look how cool and Zen the samurai are" pictures, etc. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever except for the fact that its weight and heft would make it a deadly projectile weapon if it were dropped on someone's head. I have a copy which I use to prop up the short leg on my coffee table. If the paper on which it is printed weren't so thick, I would put it on top of the commode where it might be put to some honest use.

[Shimura]

I will be honest, I actually liked Secrets of the Samurai on first reading. That is until I discovered Draeger and was able to further educate myself. The illustrations are kind of nice, but in re-reading it (yes I own a copy) I found alot of holes and inaccuracies. If you want good history on budo read the Classical Bujutsu etc. by Draeger.

[Tea Guy]

Honestly, the only reason I own this book is because someone gave it to me. I wouldn't even buy it. This book is missing even basic knowledge.
The only thing this book does is make a decent writing surface or a paper weight.

C.Sieg

[Earl Hartman]

Draeger is, of course, a good place to start. Anything recommended by Koryu Books will probably be quite good, as is their own "Classical Warrior traditions of Japan" series. If you are interested in kyudo, "Kyudo: The Essence and Practice of Japanese Archery" by Onuma and deProspero is the only book you really need.

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I was not going to respond to this thread, but on second thought I decided too.

It is very easy for anyone to 'second guess' and be a 'Monday morning quarterback' on any issue. But remember at the time Mr. Ratti and Ms. Westbrook produced there works, there was scant other data widely available to most of us. Sure it is easy, decades later, to 'put down' the work, but at the time...what was produced is what is important. Of course, it would have been wonderful if the great majority of their efforts came from primary and not secondary sources.

Remember, some light in a dark room is better than none. Yes, Draeger and Smith both produced wonderful research for their times and most of it for now, still stands up, but both had 'mistakes', or assumptions which were later found to be wrong.

Robert W. Smith, in one of his early works, traces all 'Kung Fu' back to the Shaolin Temple, which we know NOW is erroneous. Should we fault the body of his work for what we now know is wrong...NO, his work was, and is, among the best. The same with Major Draeger. He made assumptions in some areas and came to wrong conclusions in others, but his work still stands up today!

Today, we have very strong research being produced by a number of people...Dr. Karl Friday, Dr. D. Burdin, Dr. Robert Dohrenwrend, Gramham Noble, Harry Cook, Joseph R. Svinth, Tom Green, Eric Madis and so on, (and in no particular order) just to name a few. They follow in the footsteps of those who went before and their work is outstanding, but mistakes will be discovered and/or their work will be rethought. Should Ratti and Westbrook not have done their research, because at the time the methods of communication were different, slower and compared to today had far greater linguist differences than we deal with today? No, they should be repsected for their efforts.

My opinion is, respect what was produced, according to the time it was produced in. Besides, if nothing else, the line drawings are just fantastic to look at. If nothing else, save it as an art book, but respect what went into the work, at the time.

We all know better now, but at the time...did you know it?

Regards,
TommyK

[PRehse]

I have a small problem with comparing Ratti and Westbrook to serious historical research. As someone said - it reads like a refined regurgitation.

Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere was written by two Shodans who went to Japan for six months. That's it. If you want to use that book as your bible - have fun. It is however a pretty book that keeps Auntie Bess happy when you show her what you do. For Uncle Frank you take him out back.

That said I really do think the two authors wanted to produce a quality Aikido book for what they understood Aikido to be. For Secrets of the Samurai I think the reasons were less steller. "Let's produce another book on something Japanese" that will sell. Of course in that regard they are not unique.

[Earl Hartman]

What I disliked most about SOTS was not the erroneous information, it was the "exotification" of what they were writing about, right down to the ridiculous drawings of serene, shaved-headed monks mowing down groups of people with beautiful, flowing motions while they remained supremely unconcerned and all of the guys fell down like extras in a cheap chanbara movie. They even had some picture of some guy's soul burning up and his physical body crumbling as he meditated and united with the universe. The writing was just a verbal version of the same attitude.

Bleccchhh. I mean, "Kung Fu" is just, like, so totally '60s, man.

I just cannot STAND that kind of "woo-woo" romantic nonsense. Once I saw junk like that (and the absurd errors in the kyudo section, which could only have been made by a person who didn't know anything about kyudo except what they read in somebody else's book), it made no difference what the rest of the book might contain.

Game over. Buh-bye.

[Tea Guy]

I agree with Earl.

Regarding TommyK's post:
I just don't buy that. A good book could have been made back then. It's not as if martial arts have only developed since then. It seems that all the resources they used were books in English. First off, that would be quite foolish to do if researching MA. Second, only using book resources, in my opinion, is equally as foolish. If they were truly interested in making a quality book they would have done better research, including questioning respectable practitioners of the arts.
Does that require time and effort? Of course. However, the resultis better.
If you don't know much about a particular subject there is no reason to write about it until you do.
It would be like me trying to tell someone about Kyudo. I know nearly nothing about it (although I would like to learn more), so I wouldn't try to pass myself off as an authority on it. I would tell them to look elsewhere.


C.Sieg

[Rennis]

The line of thinking that Westbrook and Ratti should be forgiven for poor research might work if they had been "the" first authors to cover this topic, but the fact is that people like Draeger, Smith, etc had already had their works published before Secrets Of The Samurai came out. Draeger and Smiths "Asian Fighting Arts" came out in 69. Draeger's Classical Bujutsu and Classical Budo came out in 73, while Secrets of the Samurai came out the next year in 1974. Heck, I find Harrison's "The Fighting Spirit of Japan" to be a much more revealing work and the version I have was published in 1955 (my understanding was that the original was written before WWII).

The fact is that much more creditable work was already out there when Secrets of the Samurai came out. "Secrets" also didn't simply develop a bad rap in hindsite due to future researchers. I was reading through my back issues of Hoplos recently and they gave the book a very damning review right when it came out :rolleyes: My impression looking at the work now is that the authors seemed simply to have had a preconceived idea about how the "samurai" worked and hunted down resources and wrote the book around that idea rather than researching to find out how they really might have been, using native sources, etc, etc.

But that's just how I see it...

Rennis Buchner

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I am sorry if my defense of Ratti and Westbrook rattled some feathers and I do agree with most of the points that rebutted my few statements.

However, I guess my point was to appreciate what was produced and the era it was made in. Simply put...that is all.

Of course more could have and should have been done with the 2 Ratti/Westbrook works sited, but then again could you or I have done as well, especially at the time?

Apologies to those who did not see my point of view, but I certainly do see yours.

Regards,
TommyK

[Tea Guy]

Originally posted by TommyK
Greetings,

I am sorry if my defense of Ratti and Westbrook rattled some feathers and I do agree with most of the points that rebutted my few statements.

However, I guess my point was to appreciate what was produced and the era it was made in. Simply put...that is all.

Of course more could have and should have been done with the 2 Ratti/Westbrook works sited, but then again could you or I have done as well, especially at the time?

Apologies to those who did not see my point of view, but I certainly do see yours.

Regards,
TommyK


Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. We just wanted to give our reasons for why we thought the book was poor, right everyone?
In answer to your question, I do think I could have done a better job at making a book. I'm not saying this to anger you in anyway or challenge your point. I'm simply saying that there are people like myself who will go to extraordinary lengths to accomplish something. Ratti and Westbrook just weren't those type of people, from what I can gather.

C.Sieg

[TommyK]

Greetings,

I commend your positive attitude, Tea Guy. But please, try and remember Mr. Ratti and Ms. Westbrook were Graduate students at Columbia, during a time when everyone was 'turning on and dropping out'.

NYC and Columbia at the time that the concept for the books were developed and the time that they were written are not necessarily the time when they were published. Meaning that the very late 60's and early 70's were going on. Therefore, I still think they deserve some slack.

I am tired of 'newbies' (on any subject) spouting off that so and so never knew what they were doing and so on. (Not aimed at you, or any one else personally.) I just would like to see Mr. Ratti and Ms. Westbrook get some credit for what they did produce at the time. If only one person got interested in any aspects of the martial arts and/or its History through their efforts, then it was worth it.

To close up on this subject, lets all try to place things in their proper perspective. Yes, the books were mis-leading and oft times down right wrong, but at least they were there to offer someone some inkling of what exists out there.

I believe my point has been made, I broker no hard feelings, I just wanted some people to be more kind toward their efforts.

Thank you Tea Guy and all others for their replies.
TommyK

[Tea Guy]

Well, I can at least give them credit for putting something out there.
It was probably the one book that got some people interested in particular martial arts and drove them to research on their own. So, I'll give Ratti and Westbrook that, but my views will remain the same.
I think that is what you want people to recognize, right? After all, it did have some information, right?
Yeah, I guess I'll commend them for at least displaying something (despite my other opinions on the matter).

C.Sieg

[Mekugi]

OHhh the poor little rich kids at Columbia?!! No slack from me. Being that they have the "higher" education they could have written a book of subtance rather than hot air.

THe pictures are still cool though.




Originally posted by TommyK
Greetings,

I commend your positive attitude, Tea Guy. But please, try and remember Mr. Ratti and Ms. Westbrook were Graduate students at Columbia, during a time when everyone was 'turning on and dropping out'.

NYC and Columbia at the time that the concept for the books were developed and the time that they were written are not necessarily the time when they were published. Meaning that the very late 60's and early 70's were going on. Therefore, I still think they deserve some slack.

I am tired of 'newbies' (on any subject) spouting off that so and so never knew what they were doing and so on. (Not aimed at you, or any one else personally.) I just would like to see Mr. Ratti and Ms. Westbrook get some credit for what they did produce at the time. If only one person got interested in any aspects of the martial arts and/or its History through their efforts, then it was worth it.

To close up on this subject, lets all try to place things in their proper perspective. Yes, the books were mis-leading and oft times down right wrong, but at least they were there to offer someone some inkling of what exists out there.

I believe my point has been made, I broker no hard feelings, I just wanted some people to be more kind toward their efforts.

Thank you Tea Guy and all others for their replies.
TommyK

[Kevin Geaslin]

I have been told that there are numerous errors with the books, but it has always been one of my favorites simply for the drawings. I usually suggest it for someone who is interested in traditional Japanese arts and history (you cant get a better book at Barnes and Noble for 9.99!) I wish Oscar Ratti would do a collection of budo drawings, or maybe drop the price of his "Hermit" graphic novels.