What was it like

[mugen]

Can anyone offer any insight into what ninpo training was like during the "80's ninja boom" as compared to current trends? Similarities-differences- I am interested in what it was like as far as rank structure, teaching methods, information, stories, experiences, what inspired you, ect. This goes for any "Kan"...

[doraemon]

I came in at the tail end of it by accident.

It is better now. Because the source is much clearer technique wise.
He says so himself. The essence is there without a lot of promotional mumbo jumbo. But now that he has an award from the imperial household and is sought out as THE Masaaki Hatsumi, I believe there is less need for promotion of the art and the teaching method. As he says, it grows and becomes truly international and a positive thing in peoples lives.

Back then it was still good and fun, there were people like Daron Navon floating around from time to time. Which totally rocked.

It's amazing to see people like Jack and Bud and Arnaud and Moti become who they are now. Technically speaking. To have seen the Shihan only on tapes really, and then to see them now and meet them and learn from them 10-15 years on.....amazing.
To see the new crop of Australians and Europeans, phenominal.
(I don't mean to leave people out, but this is a BBS and it takes more time to think of people specifically after a certain point. and I was up working late.) :)

If you are looking for a golden age....let me tell you...you are living in it. It is here.

My only real problem with the Buj now as opposed to then is that the worship of our Soke by some prevents people from seeing his nature and true joy at how others are progressing. And likewise peoples worship of their own image that prevents them from getting what he is teaching now, instead of believing that they got the "real stuff" way back then, when they were one of a "handful" of people.
We all share in each others good fortune.
e.g.---I still want to see Buds unexpected score on The Boss back at that Taikai whose tapes had it edited out, just to see Sokes reaction, that I wasn't there to see because I didn't have the money to go.

It was real back then in the 80's. No doubt. But looking at it as the only real source is like having an ice cream store with just vanilla in it.
Every year is a new flavor. Every training is a new flavor. Every technique is a new flavor. :D

[Kamiyama]

Simple question...

1, no ranking was higher than it should have been.. mainly most were kyu ranking.. a few were shodan to yondan.. and just a couple were godan and above..

2, there was no forums.... on the web.. news letters were used..

3, training before 88 was mainly free flowing and through combat simulated movement.. looked mainly like Gyokko ryuha..

4, seminars were few..

5, having a ranking that was shodan and above had meaning..

6, BDU's were worn a great deal..

7, not to many people had dojo..

8, any throws looking like judo or wrestling were a no no..

9, ninjutsu was the greatest art around.. nothing was better..

10, if you could do complete rolls or flips in the air you knew a lot of ninujutsu..

11, sparring was a no no..

12, weaponry knowledge of the ryuha before 88 was almost unknown..

mainly like that..

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Tamdhu]

One point regarding training in the early years that I hear time and again from my betters is how few kata and techniques there were at the time to work on. This led to a constant going over, refining and branching out of whatever few techniques or kata a given dojo or training group knew, which is very much in the spirit of the way we should all be training, I think, when we study kata, only nowadays we are cursed with such a wealth of material that it's sometimes overwhelming!

The rank aspect that Ralph touches on may have been true in the very beginning, but as soon as people started going to Japan on their own and going from Stephen Hayes green belt to 'personal student of Hatsumi Soke mega dan' over night, rank pretty much ceased to have meaning in the way that people would sometimes like it to have.

The ranking requirements of the Hayes dojo were extrememly strict, and if you got a shodan under his training, you earned it, hands down no questions asked. His student population dwindled severely, though, once people started going to Japan. Many of the biggest names (and mouths ; ) in ninpo today are Hayes ex-pats who went to Tokyo, gleefully accepted rank when offered, and then went off to start their own budo empires, more often than not bad-mouthing Hayes in the process.

All part of the fun. Everyone gets their heart's desire, no more, no less.

[Sunu Eagure]

I use my belt to hold my drawers up and my jacket closed...what was it for in the 80's?

[Tamdhu]

All sorts of kooky things!

[John Lindsey]

I think there are a few reasons to why Hayes received a backlash of negativity in the 1980’s. First of all, I think many people assumed what he was teaching was the traditional art. He never did say either way really, but people took it for granted that in Japan, Hatsumi was teaching and training in a similar manner with a similar philosophy.
So, when people went to Japan and saw that it was different, plus the fact that some of the Shihan would talk in a negative manner about Stephen, all of this caused a lot of negativity.

Back in these days, once you got to shodan you were initiated into the kuji-in during a special class at the Ninja festivals. In my case, we started in one of the buildings at the camp and Hayes talked briefly about kuji, and how he purposely changed some of the pictures in his books so that people would not try and copy them. We then went out into this field and it was very dark, with no lights. Hayes explained how to make the first hand seal and walked around to check each of us, and to give us a little bit of energy. It was way cool and the highlight of the training for many of us. Even though he never mentioned Hatsumi, we assumed that we were learning something he had learned in the Bujinkan. So, when Hatsumi later told people that he never taught Hayes kuji-in, people assumed they had been lied too, etc. Oh, and Hatsumi was not very supportive of Hayes during one on one conversations with those who traveled to Japan. Maybe he was just testing people, or having fun with it all. For instance, he would tell people that they were better than Hayes and that they should go back and teach Hayes what they saw in Japan. Or, he would joke about how he gave Hayes the name “golden dragon” because he was the dragon that brought home the gold (money).

I do not think it was so much an issue with ego, rather than a commitment to the Bujinkan in general, and Hatsumi in particular. Take the case of RVD. He and Hayes did have some problems, but Richard has always been 100% sincere. Heck, he has probably been to more Taikai than Hatsumi!

Mr. Hayes used to use the term “Western World’s Leading Authority” and that upset some, especially those associated with Doron Navon. I remember some folks even trying to rationalize the quote by saying that Israel is not really in the West, etc! Even Bud used to use “Western World’s Second leading authority” which was a bad PR move…

Also, Hayes didn’t follow the “kihon happo” dogma as it became popular in the mid 80s. Probably because it was not stressed when he was in Japan. Back then, everything was related to the kihon happo and we sat it as the cornerstone of the Bujinkan.

But, one thing that kept people attracted to what Hayes was doing was the fact that he was a very good martial artist and could make the stuff work

[Alex Meehan]

Given the wording of the original question, it might be worth remembering that there was Bujinkan elsewhere than just America in the 1980s. Often, topics like this on the Internet make it seem that all training outside Japan and Israel can be traced to the US in the 1980s, but that's not quite true. I started training in the late 1980s and had to ask my teacher what the godai was after reading about it in one of Mr Hayes' books. While Mr Hayes obviously had an influence on European ninpo through his books, by the mid to late 1980's there were loads of other people regularly training in Japan and coming back to share what they learned.

The ninja boom had different flavours in different parts of the world.

[Tamdhu]

Great points John and Alex.


So, when people went to Japan and saw that it was different, plus the fact that some of the Shihan would talk in a negative manner about Stephen, all of this caused a lot of negativity.

I think a lot of folks went to Japan expecting to 'get what Hayes got', only to find that it was no longer on the menu. Hatsumi soke, moving target that he is, was on to other things. Maybe the kihon happo was brought about to help all the people who skipped or missed out on the basics have some sort of skill basis with which to wrestle with the advanced concepts he has been teaching ever since, without his having to go over all the basics again.

I'm definately of the thinking that the negativity encountered in Japan concerning Stephen was/is very much a case of Hatsumi soke making things uncomfortable for Hayes, patting him on the back with one hand and pushing him into moving traffic with the other. I believe that in some circles this is a time-honored advanced-training tradition.

Could be wrong, of course. Again, all part of the fun! Each of us has to do our best to figure out truth from illusion every single step of the way for ourselves. In the end I think that each of us, no matter how close to Hatsumi and the truths of his training we may like to think we are, will find one or more of our core assumptions to be woefully false.

[MakotoDojo]

I am asked at times, why it seems the guys in Europe are so much better (on an average) than the guys in the USA. In my opinion it is as Alex was saying, there was a strong Japan connection much ealier on than in the USA. The European's were getting the infor on REAL Bujinkan when we in the States were getting Shadows of Iga,Even in the very early 90's in the States, all but those in the small close circle of Japan were still unsure of what was "real" or even better!

Hayes promoted the idea that HIS way was the functional way, and what was done in Japan and by those who jet off to Japan was not as realistic for the "western world" I remember as late as 1994 I was at the Barn Dojo and mentioned to him Regina Brice (Japan trained Godan) He said he didn't know here (not true btw) but that I could go ahead and train with her and then come down and learn how to actually USE the stuff. Everyone with big eyes asked what he means, he went on for a few minutes about how the Japan way was more a "historical" study and what not, but that HE and he got in a low stance and made this men face ;) That HE could show you how to REALLY use it!

So that got in the way big time for me and others I knew, who was right? Also at the time, he didn't admit Godai was made up by him, also Kuji, everything was sold as being the "real" way and the feeling was that Soke sort of stopped the real way and was cashing in. in Europe for the most part, they didn't have all this baggage to get in the way of the TRUE message from Japan, in essence they shut up'ed and trained and trusted and today look at the top Dogs over there, I am sorry to say that it has only ben in recent years that I am seeing some americans move on the same footing. We are getting there and in some cases have gotten there. Took us a little longer, but thats ok ;)


But more directly to answer about the 80's onething that was bad, was that because so little of the actual stuff was known, HENKA not good henka based on the kihon, but the do what you want how you want and justify it because everyone is different . Classes were often people working from an elemental "feeling" and just teaching self defense based off of attacks and that was really it, actual waza was VERY limited Kata rare and weapons were silly...

It's WAY better now!

The one thing I miss was the innocence ;) The magic...

[poryu]

Hi

I started in 1985 and I remember back then i could bname every single shodan and above in the UK. I dont think i could name all the judan now.

If you ran around at night dressed in balck it was ninjutsu. I remember on a camp we did they said lets do some night training. Everyone had to hide then the instructors would find you using ninjutsu. these two guys from my dojo turned up in camo from head to foot faces blacked out as well, we just fell about laughng at them. At the end of the exercise all the wannabe ninja had been caught and all the people who had spent several years in the scouts were still hiding.

We spent a serious amount of time going over and over kihon hapo and sanshin, apart form that they were basically the only real kata we had. In 1991 I saw Kuki bojutsu for the first time. It was also up to that point tthat everything was ninjutsu and not seperated into each ryuha. Aspects of Gikan ryu and shindenfudo ryu were made up until then.We used to spend serious amounts of time with hanbo. My shins must have been bruised permanent for a few years. My dad thought I was stupid

I also remember seeing Brian McCarthy do kuji and we just sat there thinking what a load of bollock thats made up. I had hayes book and the Katori shinto ryu book with the kuji in in them and I knew he was just copying what he had seen as I had.

It was great fun in the 80's everyone was seriously dedicated and trained full on because they were desperate to learn. now its a case of turning up going home and see uyou next week, no dedicattion to the art. that is no left to the old timers like me and a rare few that emerge that really get into it.

socially the 80's were the best, technically today is the best.