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Brian Hunt
12th December 2003, 09:08
Hi everyone,

This is my first time posting to e-budo, so I hope this is the correct place to ask this question. I have been studying an Okinawan style of karate for several years now, and I have been wanting to track down it's roots. The name I have been given for this style is "Sheng Meng Tzu Wang", I hope I have spelled that correctly. My teacher studied somewhere along the Coast line of California as a teen under someone he knew only as Master Pack or Pak (once again unsure of the spelling)as far as I know, that is all he was allowed to call him, so I do not have a first name. I think that some things may have been lost in the oral teaching I have recieved, for instance, we have a white belt routine, and a green belt routine and that is the only names we have for them so I am looking to try and discover original names for kata's, etc. and hopefully a linage for this style. Any help would be highly appreciated.

Thanks

Geoff
12th December 2003, 15:51
Brian,

A quick Google search turned up the name Sheng Meng as a senior judge in Traditional Wushu at a West Coast tournament. If your transliteration is off and the name of the style is "Sheng Meng Chuan (quan)" instead of Sheng Meng Tzu Wang it could possibly be this master's style. This might make sense since your brief description does seem to resemble Chinese MA and Sheng Meng and Pak are both Chinese names. Therefore, the style might simply by Sheng Meng's Boxing or the traditional wushu of this guy. Keep in mind that traditional wushu is much different than the competitive wushu that you see in Chinese MA demos and includes sparring and forms-applications. Also, there was a great deal of exchange between Okinawa and Southern China over time and in some cases it is hard to see where Chinese systems leave off and Okinawan systems begin.

Good luck with your search,

Geoff Wingard

Jock Armstrong
18th December 2003, 12:32
I don't want to be a party pooper and I hope this is not the case but it may be your instructor fed you a line and really didn't know any Okinawan karate and just "karate-ised" some taiji. I find it difficult to believe that he didn't know the kata names. I don't know of any Okinawan styles who use numbers for their kata. Your time line might co-incide with the burst of general enthusiasm when "The Karate Kid" was popular. More than on "instructor" has been guilty of changing with the flavour of the month. Like I said, I hope it is not the case but I'm getting a bit cynical in my old age. Ihope someone with more precise local knowledge can help.

Jock Armstrong
18th December 2003, 12:35
PS Whats your instructors name?

tallpaul50
5th January 2004, 15:12
I think it's odd that an Okinawan system has a Chinese name? Of course it could be a Chinese system TAUGHT on Okinawa, but not an Okinawan system.

Heck, there are even TaeKwonDo schools on Okinawa, which I find amazing actually.

Your instructor should be able to give you hard, provable facts about the system, not "generalities" about it. Does he know how to correctly spell his instructors name for example. Lineage, etc?

There was a young guy locally here that when I met him, was a shodan (I'm a sandan) in the same system I do. I saw him a year later, and amazing enough, all of a sudden, he was a yondan! Wow, imagine that! Nice guy, so I asked him if he wanted to work on kata sometime. It was interesting that he couldn't do any kata higher than Pinan Nidan..which is a low belt level kata. This might be what you've got for an instructor. A guy who took some classes, declared himself an instructor (no laws against it that I know of) and is tyrying to pass of this system as a legitimate martial art. Again, no laws against it..unfortunately! lol

Old Dragon
6th January 2004, 08:02
Hey easy here guys........

There is on Okinawa some old family styles, Brian may have stumbled on to one of these also.

I have studied a style called hindiandi, it is very circular, not really traceable past the instructor who lived on okinawa and It appears it may be a personal family style. It in fact up until recently had no kata but was a drill style.

It may well be one of those made up styles you have talked about but the man who taught me is very credible and he learned it from a man on okinawa and was reccommended to that man I beleive by a very credible Karate man on the island in the 60's. Dont quote me on the details I am repeating an oral conversation I had years ago.

At any rate Sensei beleived that it was very possible that it was a family style. Hindiandi has been translated to a chinese name and also in an Okinawa dilect as Changing hands,Penetrating hands. Which by the way is exactly what it does.

Lets find out a little more about it before we automaticlly write it off as somebodys fantasy martial arts. I had orininally be sceptical about Hindiandi but very quickly found it to be a solid style, It definatly has a chinese root, but was taught on okinawa by one man, and it appears to have died on Okinawa with him. Currently the one student that that I know of is teaching it in California. It is he that added the forms or kata in honor of his teacher.

Mike O'Leary

laf7773
4th February 2004, 01:15
Didn't the original term karate mean china hands before it was changed to mean empty hand? I think it's very possible for an art from Okinawa to still have a chinese name. A lot of there systems are influenced by the chinese anyway. As for not knowing the name of the kata i don't know. Realy isn't enough info to make a solid judgement. As for Tae Kwon Do schools in Okinawa, TKD is kind of a fusion of Shotokan and Taekyon. The Korean arts were strongly influenced by the Japanese since there occupation up till the 40s. Which is why the kata are so similar. Besides the fact that i think Tae Kwon Do has been popping up everywhere. I remember seeing a school in Bahrain.

I've never heard of the system myself.

laf7773
4th February 2004, 01:24
Is this the same Hindiandi your talking about Old Dragon? I think he's teaching in Oceanside.

http://www.isshin1.com/new_page_7.htm

Just curious. I'd never heard of it, I'd like to see some examples of the style though.

Jock Armstrong
4th February 2004, 02:35
I didn't automatically write off anything- I just think not knowing kata names in the style you purport to teach is suspect. I'm fully aware of the family sytems in Okinawa which are not well known. Kojo ryu is very Chinese looking- especially its forms- so maybe the guy is legit but my instincts lead me to a differnt conclusion. I bet your hindiandi teacher knew the names of the kata he taught eh old Dragon.

Old Dragon
4th February 2004, 04:05
Jock.....

you got to read what I wrote.. My sensei developed the forms in honor of his sensei...... so of course he knew the names. Two of the 3 are actually named after my sensei, the first and primary is named after his teacher. The style prior to that was a drill style. \


Someone asked if the style taught out of Oceanside is the same style.. it is in fact my sensei you have found. As I said, to my knowledge the only ones teaching this style is my sensei..... and of course his students now.


Hindinadi is a very circular and direct style. It is not sport oriented, there are only 2 kicks that I know of in it. both are to the lower body or designed to take you off your pins and disabling you at the same time. (knees are a favorite target) ....




My point in bringing it up was that the original statement in this post was I beleive originally responded to and the track lead along the lines of maybe the poster had found some "fake" style. (I'm paraphrasing) 10 years ago I may have said the same thing. My point was that I had come across a fairly unknown style and found it to be legitimate, orgainzed and workable. Perhaps there were more.


To respond to the next post. Yes Karate kangi originally read as China hands, it was funakoshi who changed it.
I do not know about taekwon do and Shotokan but if you read an old book by Henry Choi there is a section about the "Shorin ryu " connection in the development of tae kwon do. It would make sense that Okinawa had an affect on Korean arts due to the trade that went on between Okinawa and many countries in the 17 and 18 century.


Tall Paul......

Many Okinawa systems stem from China. Kusanku was a Chinese envoy in Okinawa, It is rumored that so was Wansu and possibly Chinto. there is debate as to weather Chinto was a name or a name given a kata but the documentation about Kusanku being a man whos students made up a kata about his techniques is written in Okinawa history.

It is rumored that Sanchin is stemed from a chinese kata named Samshin. Nihanci or Tekki is rumored to be white crane in origin. the countries were not independant of each other and to have people move back and forth was common. Several karate practioners from the late 1800 were said to have studied in China and brought technique and kata back with them. After all, karate did not exist in japan until the 1920's when Funakoshi was invited to go there. Who is to say that was the first time it crossed a border. It would make sense for the japanese to translate the techniques and teaching methods to their own culture.

Our belt system is derived form Judo, Jigoro kano developed a belt system. Chojun Miyagi is reported to have never awarded a black belt.Apparently is was a foreign concept to him. Why would you give someone rank? It was not in the picutre.

Many things have developed and changed. I studied Hindiandi from a man in Oceanside california, he studied from a man in Okinawa.

Is your style from your country.??????????????

Take it from there.


Mike O'Leary.

laf7773
4th February 2004, 04:53
Originally i only noticed the similarity in the kata between the two styles. My statement about it being a combo of the two came from a site i found a while back while doing a little research.

http://www.barrel.net/history.html

About half way down the page is where the Shotokan statement is. Maybe Shorin ryu was an earlier influence.

My first impression of this thread was the same. It felt like the general idea was this guy was being put on. I thought the same thing in a way, but like i said there isn't enough to go on. I wuld like to see an example of the kata to get an idea of what the system could be like.

Old Dragon
4th February 2004, 07:49
Lane.... I forgot to put the name of the book that has a taekwon do / shorin ryu link.... it was written by Henry Choi, the date on the edition I have is 1971 and It appears it was originally written in the 60's.... it is called "Korean Karate" it is a large book and if you look at it it resembles karate not taekwon do as we know it today. Not being well versed in this art I am not sure but I am told that Col. Henry Choi was responsible for introducing taekwon do into the Korean Military. This I cannot verify.. perhaps someone else can give a story related to Choi and this book?


As to examples of Hindiandi, I am sorry but I do not know where you would find any tapes. Sensei has not made any, we as sutdents have tapes we have made for our own but these are not for publication. This was an agreement between those who were allowed to tape and Sensei. It was not for secrecy it was so that Sensei would have control over the publication of this kind of information. Sensei has only recently after 30 years released a tape on Isshin Ryu. If you check the Isshin1 web site you found they may have something but I do beleive that there are less than 100 people in north america training in this. If anyone finds anything that I do not know about I would be very appreciative of finding out about it.



Sensei has always said that his teacher never talked about the root of Hindiandi, Sensei has gone back to Okinawa on a yearly basis to talk to family and friends of his old teachers in search of the truth in the history of not only hindiandi but Isshin Ryu and his Kobudo. I beleive he told me once that he talked to the son of his old hindiandi teacher and was told that they have no history on the subject, it was speculated that the man has learned in either from chinese or in china. (Please dont quote me here, I hate it when sensei catches me making mistakes, and I will always admit error when I am wrong. I am recollecting conversations, some are several years old)

So... back to the original request has anyone been able to help and find out anything about Sheng Meng Tzu Wang????????????? now if that doesnt sound Chinese I dont know what does.

Mike O'Leary

Rob Alvelais
4th February 2004, 14:53
No. Choi Hong Hi was the person credited with introducing TKD to the Korean Military. He was the founder of the Oh Do Kwan school of TKD and a Nidan student of Gichin Funakoshi.
There was an interview of him in Taekwondo Times in 2000, I think it was. If you can get a hold of it, it's pretty interesting.

The book you speak of, is by S. Henry Cho, and yes, it does look a lot like karate.
Mr. Cho states, "Tae-kwon is the Korean word for karate recently adopted by the Korean Tae-Kwon do Federation. Tae-Kwon do (tae meaning foot; kwon, fist; and do martial art) is identical to Japanese Karate and the tite is a literal description of an art consisting of foot and hand techniques."

Mr. Cho, never states explicitly that TKD comes from Japanese Karate. Only that Karate was introduced to Japan, from Okinawa by G. Funakoshi.

Rob



Originally posted by Old Dragon
Lane.... I forgot to put the name of the book that has a taekwon do / shorin ryu link.... it was written by Henry Choi, the date on the edition I have is 1971 and It appears it was originally written in the 60's.... it is called "Korean Karate" it is a large book and if you look at it it resembles karate not taekwon do as we know it today. Not being well versed in this art I am not sure but I am told that Col. Henry Choi was responsible for introducing taekwon do into the Korean Military. This I cannot verify.. perhaps someone else can give a story related to Choi and this book?

laf7773
4th February 2004, 15:04
I don't know much about Tae Kwon Do. Never had much of an interest. Just thought it was funny they had a lot of the same kata so i did some research. This is what i came up with, just a piece of the article i found and posted a link to above.

--Modern-day Taekwondo is influenced by many other Martial Arts. The most important of these arts is Japanese Karate. This is because Japan dominated Korea during 1910 until the end of World War II. During WWII, lots of Korean soldiers were trained in Japan. During this occupation of Korea, the Japanese tried to erase all traces of the Korean culture, including the martial arts. The influence that Japan has given to Taekwondo are the quick, lineair movements, that characterize the various Japanese systems.

After World War II, when Korea became independant, several kwans arose. These kwans were:

Chung Do Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Yun Moo Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Oh Do Kwan
Ji Do Kwan
Chi Do Kwan
Song Moo Kwan
The Kwans united in 1955 as Tae Soo Do. In the beginning of 1957, the name Taekwondo was adopted by several Korean martial arts masters, for its similarity to the name Tae Kyon.

General Choi Hong-hi required the army to train Taekwondo, so the very first Taekwondo students were Korean soldiers. The police and air force had to learn Taekwondo as well. At that time, Taekwondo was merely a Korean version of Shotokan Karate. --

As for the system that started this thread? Never heard of it, but always interested in finding out more about differents systems. I haven't been able to find anything on the system or even any mention of the name in full context on the net or otherwise.

Old Dragon
5th February 2004, 00:44
Ok now here is a question.


You say that your reasearch states "Japanese Karate" had a big influence. I'm not disputing your research but if Funakoshi is credited with introduction of karate in the 20's.... then that leaves me with a few questions\

1. Did the writer of the book see okinawa as part of Japan? It technically is but from the karate historians point of view it isnt. But that is in the distinction of martial arts not geographic borders. It would make sense at that time in history for somone to make that reference.

2. Perhaps even though funakoshi was credited with the introduction is it possible that he was the first "well known" one and the one that had the most influence. Is it possible that there were small silent groups already operating?

anybody got any insight into this?

Mike O'Leary.

laf7773
5th February 2004, 01:49
My understanding is at the time Okinawa wasn't part of Japan, only under there order kind of like Korea was. Only later did it become official. Not 100% on that though. It was also said in his book that he was chosen to demonstrate karate to the Japanese. I'm sure there was something similar there already, but maybe not, we can only speculate.

Old Dragon
5th February 2004, 09:55
It is hard to say isnt it Lane.......... I am curious here. What style do you study? and being in San Diego, it is possible that I will be in Oceanside this October..... would you be interested in sharing a coffee?


I always watch the politics of the day and reflect on how history is reported. We are told through books that Funakoshi was the founder of Karate in Japan, but I often reflect on things like commercialism.... so it makes me think.... was he really the founder or just the best advertised.


I am involved with an organization that is full of politics. My sensei says train with whom ever can teach you something. After 23 years in Isshin Ryu I am finding that many people simply want me to do it "their way" as opposed to really learning. I have always appreciated my sensei who encourages listening to different people from different styles. And if it makes sense to a few....... my sensei has been training for over 50 years in the martil arts. That is not building him up............ it is a fact......... Put it this way.. if I ask you your experience in the martial arts and you tell me your a 13th dan........ I'm going to ask you again..... "Yes thats great..... but what is your experience, how many years have you trained" This will tell me much more than you telling me your rank. Rank is crap......... time tells all.

I once discovered an Aikido teacher who had 5 or 6 students. As it turned out he actually trained in the hombu dojo for about 16 years with Saito Sensei....... (Aikido students will realize the relavance of that name) he was gentle, honorable and not a commercial operation nor did he have a huge ego that needed feeding. He was a great teacher. Not only that but in training I can only describe him in one way......... when I attacked he was never there...... but always had a big smile.

We all know the politics of the arts......... who is to say that they didnt exist 50 years ago on okinawa or in Japan. I find a few people here and there that are genuinely not interested in politics,, but for the most part it seems everyone wants to be the great grand poobah of Inky Stinky Ryu. Quite frankly, myself and my senior students would like to say........... who cares........ lets train.... or in the old ways....... LETS ROCK>>>>>> And Pat, If your reading this......... its like working the door, you either did it, or you didnt. Nuff Said.

Mike O'Leary.

laf7773
6th February 2004, 06:32
Sure thing, shoot me an e-mail when you are going to be in the area.

The style i studied is Kanto ryu kenpo. I still keep up with some of my insructors via e-mail since they are in the Houston area. The system was developed by John Russel with the help of John Harsey. It's an ecletic style that has changed a lot since the begining. When i was there it was very much like Shotokan and Shorei ryu. Now they have added Ju Jitsu into the mix. I think it's a good system, no better or worse than most other styles out today. I start training with DWeidman on Monday and i'm looking forward to seeing how i fit in with the system.

Excel Glenn
14th February 2004, 19:14
General Choi is the one man recognized as formally introducing Tae Kwon Do to Korea.

As has been stated he was a student at a dojo under Gicin Funakoshi and his seniors. Their roles show him earning a shodan, General Choi claimed Nidan. There were other Korean students at the time, but the majority were in Japan when they learned the karate. Some Japanese and Okinawans were in Korea and some Koreans may have been in Okinawa.

At first TKD students performed the Pyong An forms which were augmented versions of the Pinan or Heian forms. Typically, due to the source of learning, the Korean instructors had very little schooling in the applications of the kata. They were schooled in makiwara, kihon, and yokisoku kumite type drills, but their linkage to the kata of these things was always weak.

General Choi went on to invent 20 official TKD forms which were clearly based on the kata of Shotokan. The linkage to actual application became even weaker as a result. The term TKD was originally adopted around 1958, but was still known as Subak, Kong Soo, Tang Soo (Hwan Ki who formed Tang Soo Do, another Shotokan variant), etc.

General Choi fell into disfavor with the nationalist goals of South Korea and eventually moved to Canada. At this time, the beginnings of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation and Kukiwon began to take shape in the late 60's. They formed the eight Palgwe (Palgue) forms and began formulating the black belt level forms Koryo, Gumgang, Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin, Etc. These forms departed from the Shotokan pattern in some interesting ways, but still clearly were influenced by them in terms of overall flavor. Again the linkage to application was virtually non-existent.

Koea had a regionally practiced game/exercise that was called Tae Kyon. Think of Tai Chi push hands, although not necessarily as complex, fluid, or well taught, played with the feet. This is the much vaunted Tae Kyon that is used to justify the fraudulent but often claimed Tae Kwon Do 2000 year history. This was all a nationalistic marketing campaign. It is like claiming that Western wrestling is over 2000 years old. Sure, but modern wrestling is nothing like Greek wrestling and came via a circuitous route through many cultures.

WTF and ITF TKD are so vastly removed from Japanese or Okinawan karate that they are their own thing now. WTF has its olympic competition and an encyclopedia of basically useless forms that actually interfere with the development of the Olypic fighting style. Serious players re-learn the forms just before rank testing.
ITF TKD has its 20 forms, some limited pre-arranged and free sparring, and a lot of basic techniques performed with body mechanics that are frighteningly inapplicable and potentially damaging, depending on who you are watching. The same can be said for WTF "traditional" techniques.

Then there are all the spin offs which are even more watered down and misguided. Some WTF schools and "old-style" (snicker) schools can turn out some strong basic kick-punch fighters, but they are pretty limited and basically just brawl well. From my own personal experience, I know that they will appreciate a real martial art when exposed to one.

It is highly probable that there were other practitioners of karate in Korea before General Choi. He is just credited with the starting of the national movement. Once this started, 90%+ instructors climbed on board and helped develop the single largest marketing campaign in the modern martial arts industry. It has been highly successful in terms of market penetration and is the most practiced martial art in the world. That and a buck sixty-five will get you a cup of coffee. They provide entertainment and a good "workout" for their students. Few, if any, learn anything about real martial arts theory, movement, or application. The Korean hierarchy is, almost without exception, about making money and creating a comfortable lifestyle for the "grandmasters." They have imported the worst elements of military protocol (the most important thing you learn is to stand at attention, do pushups, and yell "yes, sir!"), added some semi-philosophical claptrap, and applied the most treasured precepts of P.T. Barnum.

I studied this for 12 years full time and 3 more years as I moved to karate. I competed at the national level and I have come to the very firm conclusion that without exceptional coaching, TKD is a waste of time for anyone interested in learning a real and viable martial art. I was lucky in that I had a coach who was a professional fighter from Korea and was inclined to really teach me something about punch and kick fighting. However, that just made me ask more questions, hence where I am now. :D

If I was still involved in TKD I would be 5th or 6th dan by now. However, I would be bored and largely ignorant of so many things that I know now. I am still ignorant of many things, but at least I am aware if it. In TKD, this is never explored as the "grandmaster" is all knowing and will eventually teach you the "secrets" of which there are none and you are really just being fleeced.

That is the TKD experience in a nutshell.

chizikunbo
14th February 2004, 19:26
From the name it almost sound Chinese, that is an assumption but from my experience the word i TZU is not used much in Japanese or Okinawan dialect?

Gene Williams
14th February 2004, 19:46
This thread needs to be moved to gendai karate or baffling budo. It has departed fromnanything remotely Okinawan, unless you want to call a group of wannabees starting a style and calling it "kempo" Okinawan. I don't.

laf7773
14th February 2004, 21:12
Where in Sheng Meng Tzu Wang do you see the term kempo?

Rob Alvelais
14th February 2004, 21:14
Very good post on the history of TKD, Glenn.

Rob



Originally posted by Excel Glenn
General Choi is the one man recognized as formally introducing Tae Kwon Do to Korea.

As has been stated he was a student at a dojo under Gicin Funakoshi and his seniors. Their roles show him earning a shodan, General Choi claimed Nidan. There were other Korean students at the time, but the majority were in Japan when they learned the karate. Some Japanese and Okinawans were in Korea and some Koreans may have been in Okinawa.

At first TKD students performed the Pyong An forms which were augmented versions of the Pinan or Heian forms. Typically, due to the source of learning, the Korean instructors had very little schooling in the applications of the kata. They were schooled in makiwara, kihon, and yokisoku kumite type drills, but their linkage to the kata of these things was always weak.

General Choi went on to invent 20 official TKD forms which were clearly based on the kata of Shotokan. The linkage to actual application became even weaker as a result. The term TKD was originally adopted around 1958, but was still known as Subak, Kong Soo, Tang Soo (Hwan Ki who formed Tang Soo Do, another Shotokan variant), etc.

General Choi fell into disfavor with the nationalist goals of South Korea and eventually moved to Canada. At this time, the beginnings of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation and Kukiwon began to take shape in the late 60's. They formed the eight Palgwe (Palgue) forms and began formulating the black belt level forms Koryo, Gumgang, Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin, Etc. These forms departed from the Shotokan pattern in some interesting ways, but still clearly were influenced by them in terms of overall flavor. Again the linkage to application was virtually non-existent.

Koea had a regionally practiced game/exercise that was called Tae Kyon. Think of Tai Chi push hands, although not necessarily as complex, fluid, or well taught, played with the feet. This is the much vaunted Tae Kyon that is used to justify the fraudulent but often claimed Tae Kwon Do 2000 year history. This was all a nationalistic marketing campaign. It is like claiming that Western wrestling is over 2000 years old. Sure, but modern wrestling is nothing like Greek wrestling and came via a circuitous route through many cultures.

WTF and ITF TKD are so vastly removed from Japanese or Okinawan karate that they are their own thing now. WTF has its olympic competition and an encyclopedia of basically useless forms that actually interfere with the development of the Olypic fighting style. Serious players re-learn the forms just before rank testing.
ITF TKD has its 20 forms, some limited pre-arranged and free sparring, and a lot of basic techniques performed with body mechanics that are frighteningly inapplicable and potentially damaging, depending on who you are watching. The same can be said for WTF "traditional" techniques.

Then there are all the spin offs which are even more watered down and misguided. Some WTF schools and "old-style" (snicker) schools can turn out some strong basic kick-punch fighters, but they are pretty limited and basically just brawl well. From my own personal experience, I know that they will appreciate a real martial art when exposed to one.

It is highly probable that there were other practitioners of karate in Korea before General Choi. He is just credited with the starting of the national movement. Once this started, 90%+ instructors climbed on board and helped develop the single largest marketing campaign in the modern martial arts industry. It has been highly successful in terms of market penetration and is the most practiced martial art in the world. That and a buck sixty-five will get you a cup of coffee. They provide entertainment and a good "workout" for their students. Few, if any, learn anything about real martial arts theory, movement, or application. The Korean hierarchy is, almost without exception, about making money and creating a comfortable lifestyle for the "grandmasters." They have imported the worst elements of military protocol (the most important thing you learn is to stand at attention, do pushups, and yell "yes, sir!"), added some semi-philosophical claptrap, and applied the most treasured precepts of P.T. Barnum.

I studied this for 12 years full time and 3 more years as I moved to karate. I competed at the national level and I have come to the very firm conclusion that without exceptional coaching, TKD is a waste of time for anyone interested in learning a real and viable martial art. I was lucky in that I had a coach who was a professional fighter from Korea and was inclined to really teach me something about punch and kick fighting. However, that just made me ask more questions, hence where I am now. :D

If I was still involved in TKD I would be 5th or 6th dan by now. However, I would be bored and largely ignorant of so many things that I know now. I am still ignorant of many things, but at least I am aware if it. In TKD, this is never explored as the "grandmaster" is all knowing and will eventually teach you the "secrets" of which there are none and you are really just being fleeced.

That is the TKD experience in a nutshell.

Gene Williams
14th February 2004, 21:18
Originally posted by laf7773
Where in Sheng Meng Tzu Wang do you see the term kempo?

I was talking about Kanto ryu Kempo.

laf7773
14th February 2004, 21:57
First off the thread isn't about Kanto ryu. Second maybe you shouldn't remark on something you know nothing about. Until you've met the people or trained in the system there isn't anything worth while you can say about it.

Gene Williams
15th February 2004, 01:09
It is a made up style. It isn't Okinawan. I am tired of wannabee founders and ryu creators. Sorry.

Excel Glenn
15th February 2004, 02:03
Gene,

Although I can appreciate where you are coming from in terms of your feelings about lineage, all karate is "made up." Sorry that is the truth of it. Of course, you are right, people who have not really come to understand some of the depths of karate need not be founding new ryu, but rather should just be working to polish and pass on what they know. The Way of Glenn Ryu will be on store shelves soon. ;)

Shito-ryu is not an original ryu of Okinawa, unless I am completely misinterpreting its basic history. Its foundation in ryu that were from old Okinawa gives it great credence, but it was founded in the 20th century, was it not? In fact the name Shito-ryu was not even coined and adopted by Kenwa Mabuni until near 1930. So the official style is really only about 74 years old, not counting how many changes were made to curriculum and such over those years when he was still alive and changing things.

Does this invalidate it? Of course not, as you well know. Its foundation lies in Goju and Shorin-ryu from direct and credible lineages and fighters. You may be right that these other new "masters" are not of that quality. At the same time, what if somebody is? Then what does that mean? If we put our forefathers on such high pedestals, how can we ever hope to fly so high? Personally, I believe that everyone should strive to be good enough to have that much to say about their art. Few truly make such efforts.

Furthermore, at what point do we accept a ryu as being in its true or purest form. Was it when Kenwa Mabuni was in his youthful prime and possessed of very strong skills, perhaps not unlike a man such as yourself right now? Was it when he was much older and possessed of much more wisdom and perspective but having to do only those techniques appropriate for an older practitioner? These are not new questions, but they should be frequent ones.

Martial arts exist in four dimensions not just three, time has its effect. Concepts of Orthodox and such are just as deadly to martial arts as they are to religions in my opinion. Styles and denominations are really a convenience and often become weighty burdens. At the same time, one should and must take heed of those who came before and make intelligent evaluations as to what elements of their teachings are useful. This does take time and attention to details.

This thread is drifting badly, and I apologize, but I just wanted to put this stuff "down on paper."

Gene Williams
15th February 2004, 02:09
Glenn, You're being dense. There is such a thing as ryu that have evolved over centuries in a traceable tradition and which have a "canon", so to speak, and a common fund of knowledge, e.g. kata, which is recognizable by anyone in the traditional ryu anywhere. That is a far cry from the egocentric nonsense that permeates these and other forums so often. I just don't buy all these guys who want to be founders, masters, or creators of their own ryu. I've seen dozens and dozens of them, they've come to train in my dojo (they all seem to want to spar:rolleyes: ), I've visited their's, read their shitty books, and listened to their self-aggrandizement. Its crap.

laf7773
15th February 2004, 03:07
I aggree with you to a point. You just can't assume they are all bad. At the time this system was founded John Russel was an 8th degree and John Harsey was a 4th. There was no sudden promotion to 10th or any other rank for that matter. Maybe you should try talking to some of these people before you insult them. You don't know anything about the style. They make no outlandish claims and they tell everyone who walks in the door it was BASED on Okinawan systems among others.

Old Dragon
15th February 2004, 18:40
I think mabye it is time to move this list. We seem to have moved onto the development of new Ryu ha........ any suggestions? I like the topic and I'm wondering if we just want to continue on this post or as Gene said move to another venu. What do you think folks?

Mike O'leary

Excel Glenn
16th February 2004, 03:55
Glenn, You're being dense.

Perhaps, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I understand what you are saying. Martial arts is a process. You are correct that most of the stuff we see is chaffe. Yet, it is dangerous to fall into a pattern of instant dismissal. That is all I am saying.

Also, I don't like the use of the word canon, see my comments on styles and denominations. Now I am just being a dense, nitpicking bastard... :D

Gene Williams
16th February 2004, 11:59
Canon is actually an excellent way to look at the traditional kata. If we view them that way, then any changes or developments will be seen as evolving organically from the normative "canon" and from those who have a long and intimate history with the origins of the tradition (like the Apopstles:D ) Since people who meet the latter criteria mostly don't exist anymore, our work with kata should be more exegesis than creation. I know that you like to think of yourself as a relativist/iconoclast, but remember...if all is relative, then there is nothing for anything to be relative to and you have chaos, which is mostly how I see Western karate. Something has to be normative. Tradition is important. Something our culture needs to re-learn, in my opinion, and not just in karate.

Excel Glenn
16th February 2004, 22:11
Since people who meet the latter criteria mostly don't exist anymore, our work with kata should be more exegesis than creation.

This is an excellent way to state this argument, kudos. Of course, that begs the question of whether or not all the apostles were genuine to begin with. Mark and John, ok, Paul, not in my eyes, he was a liar and a power monger, but that is just my opinion.

Also, since we are not dealing with the stories of those who hung with a man that could reportedly raise the dead and was immortal, I think that it is quite possible for modern martial artists to create new martial traditions that are applicable and genuine. The mark is much lower, don't you think? I will state that such individuals are rare, and most attempts don't cut it.

I am a bit of a relativist to be sure, but I do harken back to a firm foundation, and that is body mechanics and the laws of physics on the Newtonian level. So, I examine techniques from that standpoint almost exclusively. On this account, a lot of karate, even some "good" karate can fall flat due to adherence to what a particular teacher taught as the gospel.

Overall I think I do agree with you more than I disagree, but even the devil needs an advocate from time to time. Plus, if we all agreed all the time, what a boring world it would be.

laf7773
25th February 2004, 23:25
I wonder what happened to the guy who started this thread anyway. One post and he's gone. Oh well, seems dead anyway.