Folded steel katana of Chen

[dbruere]

Hi

Has anyone seen any technical reports on the new folded steel Chen swords?

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, an example site selling them is
http://www.armsofvalor.com/foldedblades.html

Dirk

[Joseph Svinth]

Did you check the links I posted under "Stainless steel"? That was essentially everything I found doing a Google search. Doesn't mean there isn't more out there by a long shot, but it is what comes up quickly.

[da_aib]

i'm not to sure on the type of steel used or anything like that to do with the blade(i.e. strenth for tameshigiri) but with the tsuba being copper i can see a problem of the copper reacting with the iron like an electrochemical cell with the water in the air. in other words this may cause it to rust faster esp. if it is not clean or proply oiled.
Tim Grace

[ghp]

Janty,

No thanks ... I'll stick with Nosyuiaido! www.swordstore.com

Regards,
Guy

[ghp]

Janty,


If I were to spend 2,000 dollars for a production sword, I would wrather save up a little more and get a custom sword from Howard.

So would I, since I already have 3 Nosyu "steel iaito." I've held Howard's and it is BEAUTIFUL ... however, that $2k is just for the blade, without final polish, isn't it? If that is true, then you have to go another $1k for correct koshirae. If it does include the polish and koshirae -- that's a great price ... after waiting for 2~3 years.


Besides I am afraid to cut bamboo with my Nosyuiaido, aren't they too soft?

No -- the earlier prototype was too hard, causing the edge to chip when bamboo is cut. Get with Rick and find out the year-group of yours. The ones in the past year have been beefed up at the edge and are a bit softer so they don't chip as much. But be advised that even the edges of Nippon-to will chip if the blade area is too flat/thin. I've tested the 2.0 generation and it cuts bamboo and wara like butter -- but again, if you hit too hard a target, or hit with the incorrect hasuji [blade angle-of-attack] -- you can bend and/or chip the edge.



I also heard that the hamon is fake (although it looks real to me)?

http://home.earthlink.net/~kdlarman2/iaito/post1.jpg
Nosyuiaido "Steel Iaito" with REAL hamon

You heard that from Adrian Ko who doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows. Check SFI-Japanese Sword Arts for Keith Larman's objective review http://swordforum.com/jsa/messages/3203.html. The hamon is real. Incidentally, Adrian reported the blades had "wobbles" but Keith said they were dead flat with no undulations.


I also heard that the warranty becomes void if you remove the blade from the tsuka?

That's true to a point. The blades are made as "iaito" and not as "katana." There are good points as well as bad points about this. This is Rick's way of covering his assets. If someone like Keith -- a polisher -- removes the handle that's fine [to a point]. The short of it is "talk to Rick" -- he can modify the warranty on a case-by-case basis.

Regards,
Guy

[Mitchel Orick]

Hi. New member-first reply. In following the discussion on this thread it made me wonder if anyone has taken up Bugei Trading Company on their contention that their 'Samurai' style sword is the BEST EVER sword for the money? I received some literature, (flyers) from them recently that said, "they would demonstrate this in a public forum"! Has anyone seen this demonstration or has one taken place yet?

[Dan Harden]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why they make these matching wavy line hamon when they oil quench. I mean, oil is bad enough, blech! But to make these stupid boring matched lines is just too much. It looks like some machine made gunto blade with the "three cedar" hamon.
At least they could make an undulating disimilar hamon with some interest in the lines. They could even attempt SOME sort of ashi for crying out loud. It would actually take LESS TIME to do in the first place, then to make all those little waves!!
And then to find out they hardened them to high and they chip cutting grass??....gees
I tell you right now the carbon content is too high as well. You can see it in the hamon. tsk tsk

Rick must be having a fit. This guys stuff is top shelf. This looks to be hardly worth his excellent fit up! I am sure he will correct it before it is all done.

Dan
"Who is continually amazed at the supposed "expertise" of some experts in their arts"

[Edited by Dan Harden on 10-14-2000 at 11:35 PM]

[ghp]

Dan,


For the life of me I cannot figure out why they make these matching wavy line hamon when they oil quench. I mean, oil is bad enough, blech! But to make these stupid boring matched lines is just too much. It looks like some machine made gunto blade with the "three cedar" hamon.

Which is *exactly* how Rick explained his "steel iaito" to me: "a higher quality gunto." Dan -- these ain't art. These aren't even classified as "katana" -- they are a good beginning tool for those who cannot forge their own blades, or cannot afford a shinsakuto (or don't want to use an antique blade for tameshigiri).


At least they could make an undulating disimilar hamon with some interest in the lines. They could even attempt SOME sort of ashi for crying out loud. It
would actually take LESS TIME to do in the first place, then to make all those little waves!!

Dan, these are production blades. I don't know how the hamon is set, but I own three -- and the hamon are slightly different. One narrows down almost to suguha at the monouchi. Yes, Nosyu could make sanbonsugi, umaba, notare ... maybe even kikusui (well, maybe not) ... but then the cost would increase.


And then to find out they hardened them to high and they chip cutting grass??....gees I tell you right now the carbon content is too high as well. You can see it in the hamon. tsk tsk

Okay -- now I know you are not talking about Nosyuiaido (unless, of course, you consider bamboo grass -- which it technically is .... just as a Rhino's horn is hair.) The prototype I tested was too hard, but not the actual production pieces.

Everyone! Prototype does NOT mean final production!


Rick must be having a fit. This guys stuff is top shelf. This looks to be hardly worth his excellent fit up! I am sure he will correct it before it is all done.

Yup -- top shelf. And constantly trying to improve the product. But if your comment is directed at the photo I posted above, the koshirae do fit the blade -- aesthetically and practically speaking (in my opinion).

At least Rick is not selling his "steel iaito" as the same as a "1000 fold-forged Gen-u-wine Sam-u-rai sword." You get what you pay for. In Nosyu's case, you get a damned good iaito that you can also use for tameshigiri. And performs just as well in many cases as Nippon-to. I've seen shinsakuto and shinshinto chip during tameshigiri. I can tell you from first-hand experience it is a lot less traumatic when a "steel iaito" chips on bamboo [from a student's very flat hasuji, executed in conjunction with incorrect swing-angle] -- than when an antique chips.

Again, please do not confuse Nosyuiaido's product with the real thing (same can be said about their zinc alloy iaito).


Dan ... "Who is continually amazed at the supposed "expertise" of some experts in their arts"

I hope you're talking about someone else. If your comment is directed to me -- well, lets talk. Obviously I'm giving the incorrect impression that I'm an expert -- which I'm not.

Regards,
Guy

[Edited by ghp on 10-15-2000 at 12:07 PM]

[glad2bhere]

With all this talk about having swords made, and who may be the best provider of modern swords both for MA practice and cutting, has anyone done any research on using WW I and II vintage swords? I have two reasonably decent swords from WW II and have given some thought to having them remounted and polished? Does anyone have any thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Dan Harden]

Guy writes

In Nosyu's case, you get a damned good iaito that you can also use for tameshigiri. And performs just as well in many cases as Nippon-to. I've seen shinsakuto and shinshinto chip during tameshigiri. I can tell you from first-hand experience it is a lot less traumatic when a "steel iaito" chips on bamboo [from a student's very flat hasuji, executed in conjunction with incorrect swing-angle] -- than when an antique chips.


Hi Guy


Any sword being made today that chips, or has edge delection while cutting things like grass or bamboo is a failure. It would be completley unacceptable. The steels available; tamahagane from a Japanese tatahara or U.S. made tamahagane, Or the superior smelted and rolled products and finally the powder matallurgy, are more than capable of being made into a product that will withstand cutting mildsteel cable or brass rod. Bamboo and grass is childs play for properly treated steel. It is true that the edge geometry and tapering are as important as the heatreat. There are alot of blades out there ground to thin with flat angled sides that are toonarrow. Properly tapered they should withstand much abuse due to poor technqiue as well.
Oil quenched or not (this is an aeshetic issue in regard to the hamon formation) at least the steels today are capable if not the individual smith.


guy writes
"And performs just as well in many cases as Nippon-to."

They should perform BETTER. Rick has stated that his grinds are superior to the competition. The Bugei line may not have the aesthetics that Ricks people can pull off. But! Their blades are all distal tapered. Remember, Bugei's line has one hell of alot of cutting experience to back them up. With James testing constantly.
If Ricks are tapered correctly, Then the swords should at least perform as well or out perform Nippon-to. I dunno what he is using. I see no reason NOT to pick a powder steel or a vanadium enhanced product anyway. The steel is cheap stuff. Any of those WILL outclass Nippon-to in ductility, deflection, and in edge retention. I mean your not talking alot of money here for the steel. In truth any sword made today has the potential to be superior. Again, it is largely an issue of the smiths skill. The steels superiority is a given.

My comments about Rick were meant to say "That he consistently delivers a good product."
So....... although I had heard of failures in testing I was sure he would see it fixed or die trying. :)


Dan




[Edited by Dan Harden on 10-15-2000 at 11:42 PM]

[Kolschey]

Again, another fascinating thread! All of this talk of test cutting has made me wonder something. Does anyone know of any cases where practitioners have used antique or modern naginata blades for test cutting?

Guys,

I'll have to agree with Dan Hardens statement here:

"Rick has stated that his grinds are superior to the competition. The Bugei line may not have the aesthetics that Ricks people can pull off. But! Their blades are all distal tapered. Remember, Bugei's line has one hell of alot of cutting experience to back them up. With James testing constantly."

I probably have more experience than most posting here with the broad line of Bugei swords available. It is true that at the lower price points the furniture doesn't approach that of the Nosuiaido blades ( although Bugei's new wave style katana is very close ) but the blades are tough with a capital T. I have abused one particular Bamboo Koshirae blade enormously and it's still cutting strong. It even had a unfortunate run in with a granite garden lantern once which required a significant repair to the kissaki. (thatsa long story!) I have occasionally loaned this very blade to beginning tamishigiri students and visitors. One particluar guy even twisted it slightly after an unbelieveably bad attempt at cutting relatively small bamboo. After a careful straightening it is cutting bamboo up to three inches in diameter again( even through the knuckle) without complaint. The distal tapering Dan mentioned is in my opinion why this sword has no chips in the edge after so much abuse. BTW, this is the same sword in the photo of me cutting in my dojo that appeared in the Bugei ads several years ago.

I cannot comment personally on the durability of the Nosyuiaido blades because I haven't personally cut with one. They may be fine but until I have cut with one I remain a bit suspicious because of talk about chipped edges and such. I do value Guy Powers opinion though and as a result am willing to dismiss some of the bad press concerning the offerings of Nosyuiaido. Guy is a talented cutter by all accounts and I am believe his opinions should be taken to heart.

I can however say without reservation that the Bugei blades are up to the challenge of cutting and that James is constantly evaluating and improving his line of offerings. Safety concerns should weigh in when considering a Bugei blade against the competition. The R&D James puts into his products is comforting when you line up on some mother of a hunk of bamboo. I know for a fact that he has cut things much more punishing that I am about to.

My personal $/value favorite is the New Wave sword. For the buck, nothing can touch it right now.

For beauty I have a forged folded/Egnath that will just blow your skirt up. Two Howard Clark blades are on the way ( a 1086 & L6) and I am salivating already.


Toby Threadgill

P.S. Dan, If I havent personally commented on your posts concerning metallurgy, I thought they were great. Very informative and well written!



[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 10-16-2000 at 04:24 PM]

[Mitchel Orick]

Does anyone know which Bugei sword Mr. Williams is using in the video at the Bugei web site? I know it is one of the Chen blades, but which one?

[Ninpo]

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw

Originally posted by Mitchel Orick
Does anyone know which Bugei sword Mr. Williams is using in the video at the Bugei web site? I know it is one of the Chen blades, but which one?

He is using the samurai koshirae katana (995.00) This sword is so tough and very nicely made. For the price it cannot be beat.

Janty, regarding your post above about Bugei's Samurai Koshirae which is tough and worth the money, I came to think about Chen's Tiger Katana which for me, looks pretty and has a close price to Bugei's Samurai ($900+), even though some retailers may sell way less.
(Which I've been asking at Bugei's Sword Forum but remains unanswered :look: )

If you have ideas about Chen's Tiger, could you please share some comparison between two of them regarding their appearance, performance, endurance and most of all, their reliability to use for practice (kata, cutting, display, etc.)?


Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
They are made of swedish powdered steel, which is steel used in Japan for knives, and some smiths blend it with tamahegane (traditional material used for swords in Japan).
These swords are the best production swords I have ever seen. They cut, and perform very well, and are worth the price. Now of coarse they are not custom pieces, but they are better then some custom sword I have held and used.
I reccomend them all the way.

Which one do you think is more worth the money that according to your post right above, the Chen's folded blades seem to be good purchase too?
I also noticed that the Tiger have bo-hi on their blades, what's actually the advantage and disadvantage of having bo-hi on the blade?

I don't mean anything but trying to compare both swords to find out their strengths and weaknesses thus helping me (or others too?) to get precisely what I need.

Thanks for the comments. :smilejapa

[Ninpo]

Originally posted by Janty Chattaw
The Tiger is more of a live steel Iaito sword, but can be used for tameshigiri. Bo-hi makes the sword a little weaker, and is more likely to bend from lateral strain.
The samurai katana is a cutter, pure and simple. It was designed by James (like all Bugei lines) and is designed for cutting. It depends on what you are going to use your sword for.
Different companys sell the sword for different prices. CAS Iberia the main distributer of Chen products sets a standard for how much they are allowed to sell them for, but some companys try to under cut the competition by going lower.

Thanks Janty for the quick reply. :kiss:

As of what I'm going to use the sword for, currently I'm going to use it for kata and movement/drill practice, not for tameshigiri yet since I don't want to ruin any healthy sword due to my lack of cutting skill.

If I want to get one of them, I want to have it for a long term with which I might be doing some (light) cutting in the future without having to sell and buy a new one again(investment kinda thing). That's why before getting it, I need to make sure which one is worth it.

If I can get the Tiger for about $700+ while the Samurai Koshirae off course stays at $995, which one do you think I should go for? :look:

As of the bo-hi, I also heard that it makes the blade weaker. So is it a good idea of having bo-hi on a blade? What is actually the purpose/advantage of bo-hi that the swordsmiths apply them to the blades, like those of Tiger blades?

Thanks for the comments. :smilejapa

[ARASHIKAGE]

Although I have not personally seen the Tiger, a few weeks ago I did receive the Bushido, and it is a beutiful sword. It is of a superior quality when compared to the other Chen blades I own such as the Musashi Daisho, Practical Katana. These are also fine blades but the difference is apparent with the new steel and also the higher quality fittings. I have not actually cut with it yet, but I will remedy this the first chance I get. I am sure that the Tiger is of the same quality.

NINPO IKKAN,

JOSEPH M RAE