The Bible, the Koran, and evil that men do.

[bruceb]

After many years, I have begun to reread the Qur'an (Koran), the Bible with new eyes. The indoctrination of education from my formulative teens and twentys is now replaced with a broader scientific view that examines the motives and manipulations of men as they attempt to influence the young and old in these key documents that seem to still influence so many people in our society.

How can the mind be trained to see the manipulations that other men have created to control or influence other human beings?

Some of it begins by understanding that we are products of our planet, our mother earth. In being creations of that planet, we are tied to the planet earth in many ways we have yet to understand. We are just finding out that certain stimuli must be present to keep the body alligned and healthy when traveling into the outer space that is just outside the atmosphere if the planet, so what do we need to add artificially for space travel to other planets to keep our bodies operating properly? Now, this may seem trivial to some of you, but in light of this connection to mother earth, it would seem to me that much of this higher knowledge that is the secret scrolls, the bible, the koran is the human ability to tap into the connection of body and unknown forces that seems to transcend some of the scientific parameters we presently use to define phenonmena. In fact, it would seem that the evil that men do is, if I may use a comparitive visualization, a poorly tuned radio that picks up more than one station in a confusing array of sound.

As I reread these guiding words from people long dead, I see that the writers have mixed the faith, with connections to these signals of the human body, with extrapolations of their own as to what they prefer in the light of their societys choices. Each set of writers is urging other human beings to abandon their old ways and join the writers way of thinking, the writers way of living, to become part of their tribe to conquer other tribes and hence create peace on earth from one centralized religion/ one centralized tribe of human beings.

Is this, no less, the goal of Japanese teaching Budo to non-japanese, whether they realize it or not? To create an adopted tribe that is outside yet inside the tribal structure?

Ah ... the evil that men do .... sometimes men themselves don't realize what they are doing because it is part of our human conditon.

We could go at this subject a couple of different ways. We could discuss the manner in which the Bible and Koran come from the same roots but shift as different people put their spin upon the same history, much as we are doing today in the study of Budo, or we could compare the tribal adoption of others into their culture, or we could talk about how certain thoughts, phrases, sounds seem to activate the human bodys responsive stimuli in the same manner as does our natural responses to mother earth giving us an uncanny connection to each religion/ each set of worded doctrine.

For our discussion, the evil that men do is the conscious and unconscious use of indoctrination of training for Budo, for religion, for bending the human condition to work human beings as a tool for an individuals goals rather the good of the tribe, or the human race. It is from this thought I reread these books and am amazed by the evil that me do.

I, almost, have the answers for the entire puzzle of the human condition, but I could use some more scientific observations. I assume that many of you out there have observations or have read articles that I have not and can contribute bits and pieces that will add to give insight to this discussion.

[Sunu Eagure]

:toot aikidoka...

[Teach]

"I, almost, have the answers for the entire puzzle of the human condition"

All right friend out with it then!! Gimme the answer, don't be stenghy with it......it does after all belong to us all....

Are you trying to manipulate me? You have the answer so i must come and beg for the knowledge???

Hmmmmmmmm......

[bruceb]

Originally posted by Teach
"I, almost, have the answers for the entire puzzle of the human condition"

All right friend out with it then!! Gimme the answer, don't be stenghy with it......it does after all belong to us all....

Are you trying to manipulate me? You have the answer so i must come and beg for the knowledge???

Hmmmmmmmm......

The ANSWERS are not in what I say, but in what you think as you find the answers for yourself.

If you have been following the threads for the last year, nearly all the answers are in the questions and in the discussions that follow.

If you haven't been following along, then trying to tell you what makes human beings do what they do, because of myriad of conditions that are inherent in the species, is fruitless.

First thing to figure out is ... Man creates god from his observations and experiences.

Second thing to figure out .... how does behavioral conditioning tie into the human condition.

Third thing is ... what does a human being need, versus what they want.

It is all there for anyone to find. In science, in religions, in philosophy, in history, in the newest of finds each day that continue to add to our knowledge of the the human condtion, if you look for it.

It is kind of like practicing martial arts versus talking about martial arts. You can't talk about it if you haven't done it.

If you want the short version ... Add God is the Universe to one, two, and three. That is about as short as I can make it.

[Teach]

I have to ask you Bruce,

And how does having this esoteric knowledge benefit your life??

I guess i mean does it give you some awesome perspective that allows you to look at life in an enlightened way? are you better able to deal with the everyday stuff?

Does it give you a heightened sense of self and purpose?

Or does it just make you feel superior?

I believe that life is to be lived. Philosopical investigation is a fun past time for sure. But at the end of the day, we all go thru the same S#@t!

So I suppose what I am saying is.....how are you better for figuring out some great universal truth??

After all, you will still pass on one day, you will still have to live out your life in this world like everybody else, and you know what?

It's all been done before....

[bruceb]

Originally posted by Teach
I........
Or does it just make you feel superior?

I believe that life is to be lived. Philosopical investigation is a fun past time for sure. But at the end of the day, we all go thru the same S#@t!

So I suppose what I am saying is.....how are you better for figuring out some great universal truth??

After all, you will still pass on one day, you will still have to live out your life in this world like everybody else, and you know what?

It's all been done before....

Then what in the blue blazes are you asking me for the answers when you have them all?

Maybe ... because ..... it has all been done before but not the right way to find the right answers, eh?

Same time, same tide for millions of years, but look at the changes! Oh my!

Time to reexamine the ....same ....old .... S#@t because the times they are changin' ....

[Teach]

I am asking you for the answers because you came on here and said that you have them. And I don't feel like you have the right to have a monopoly on them....

Be a nice Aikidoka,........AND HAND THEM OVER!!!!!!!

Are the times a changin'????

Are we really fundamentally different than we were thousand of years ago??? Has human nature really changed that much???

I'm not sure tha I can agtree with you on that one my friend.

Please elaborate.....

[bruceb]

Which answers? My answers? Your answers? Answers in books, or answers from history, or answers that are ingrained into the behavioral conditioning of society?

Which answers would you like?

First, of all, you aren't listening to what I am writing/saying to you. Demanding answers that fit into your way of thinking will have to be modified to understand the clarity it takes to break out of your conditioning.

Man creates god from his / her observations and experiences in the universe... The universe/ our environment of mother earth is the only true barometer for truth no matter how twisted the road is to come to the proper conclusion. We must be true to the phenonmena and truth therein. Just as chemicals react to each other when mixed, so too does the interaction of living creatures on the planet earth affect changes and are affect by the phenonmena found within that universe. Question is, how much of it is created by man in his/ her attempt to understand the universe, and how much of it is wrong in light of the truths of the universe.

One thousand years, two thousand years, five thousand years is not enough to understand the affects of human beings or the human condition, one must take into account 30,000 to 50,000 years to understand the impact that creature has upon environment and environment has upon creature.

Get it out of your head that every Japanese practitioner knows more than anyone else about connecting to nature, to the world around us. We all have that capability to a greater or lesser degree, and so long as we try .... we will find our place in the world. Realize we are stealing the best qualities of Budo, adapting/ adopting them in a way we can understand for our own culture, and remaking the fabric of our society by doing this.

Depending on how old you are is how serious you are to understand these points that lead one closer to understanding violenence so that one may practice peace. There are opposites that create balance in nature, and there are opposites that create balance in human beings, which is part of the human condition.
From the pious double-faced bible thumper, to the lecherous midnite rambler whore jumping humper, there is a method, a madness, and a sort of science that drives each of us to do what what we do. Physical interaction, in any form, is a form of behavioral conditioning that affects the human being, shapes the choices they have or don't have, roads we take or don't take, so don't go gettin' all puffy chested pounding those keys like a gorilla, cause there ain't enough words to explain what I need to say if you ain't been there and done that.

I used to wonder why some people had bad trips when they got high, in my younger days that is, because everything you can imagine comes vertually from your own mind. Nobody put those thoughts there. Nobody made you see some horrible vision or some giant field of flowers and grass, you did it all by yourself.... so why do certain people feel the need to kill themselves, cause violence, scream in agony when they are "HIGH?" Ya got me?

Are you one of those, Teach? Suicide tendencys, or tendencys of violence when you don't get your way, or when you get a real good buzz going? A whole lot this Qur'an is an adaptation of behavioral conditioning for the general practitioner. Did you ever wonder why it demands so much prayer and forgiveness for the individual worshiper to perform in daily prayers and practices? A form of tapping into the human condition is to instill behavioral conditioning that allows the opportunity of participants to come to the same or nearly same conclusions. In manipulating the character flaws, or in urging proper behavior through a given set of rules, it frees the self up to ease the mind of these subconscious thoughts of evil and violence, at least that is what it was supposed to do.

The evil that men do is one level of realization that man is no longer responsible for his/ her actions, but can be the impliment of some higher power. In effect, humanity is released from its responsibility of taking responsibility for its actions because of this worship, this exoneration of sins.

Do I believe in this type of thinking? Hell no!!

We have the same damn thing in the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, if you step back and examine it from an objective point of view. Simply put, Man creates religion, and the universe is what it is. Measure your truths by what the universe would be if man ceased to exist, which might come sooner than later, because if catastrophes can be gauged by the evidence found in mother earth, there are a couple of earth changing events every 100,000 years or so. We are long over due to one, unless the great flood was an exagerated story, but then again, every culture on earth has some kind of great flood story, doesn't it?

Nope, this demanding of answers will come to nothing.

Pick a point at which we can start to understand each other, and let it grow from there.

Otherwise, just keep wrastling ..... have fun .... grow old .... and die.

Consider our subject to be on the level of Darwin's broad examination of the species, over hundreds of thousands, or millions of years, and then get back to me.

Catch ya later.

[Teach]

Man take some prozac and chill out...also, Don't insult my "wrastlin" as you call it.

I haven't insulted your Aikido now have I???

show me some respect or you can continue to have this conversation the same way that you were before I got here.

BY YOURSELF!

[bruceb]

Gee, if we cannot poke fun at ourselves or pieces, yep PIECES of our martial studies, there is no fun left in Mudville, is there?

Touched a nerve, did I? Why was that emotion of anger brought forward, do you know why? Human conditon, behavioral condtioning maybe?

What happened to the rest of our conversation, or picking out a particular point / question? Out the window with one little word .... wrastling.

Ho-hum ... another angry young man looking for answers when all the answers are all around him, if he were to take the time to find them. The journey to find the answers is as much an inner journey of the self, as it is an outter journey of discovery for experiencing and observing the world around us.

As I said all the answers you need, or the answers I have found for myself are already in past threads.

If you don't mind, I will continue my own journey and leave you to find your own answers.

Catch ya later.

[Bryan Fishback]

Originally written by Bruceb:
I, almost, have the answers for the entire puzzle of the human condition, but I could use some more scientific observations.

I was excited in seeing a new post in this section and was looking forward to discussing it, however statements like the above pretty much ensure that you will get responses without anything new to say... If you know what I mean.

That said, your post has at least 20 possible topics of discussion, I thought you had some interesting ideas in the first post and I'm sure there are people here interested in discussing them, care to pick one or two and say what you think about them in a paragraph or three?

Then maybe we can expand to the others from there.

[bruceb]

How about we discuss the evil that men do? I thought that the examination of the original title to the thread pretty much opened the door to the Mind and Spirit aspect of humanity? It is a discussion subject that is just as important as any physical technique we could ever practice on the mat.

Before we can actually discuss this intricate subject, we must come to terms with the evil that me do to create God, Gods, or religions. This discussion becomes not just an examination of the books in question, but the very basis of our behavioral conditoning through our education, though our experiences and lifestyles that affect the core of this discussion. I wish to discuss this behavioral conditioning by using the characteristics of the Human Conditon that these texts address in both practical and philosophical writings that tend to create the backbone of each religion. Religions, that I must point out, which hail from simular roots but diverge in their paths during a period that, we in the northern american/ european continents have termed "The Dark Ages." Somebody rewrote the manuscripts and changed the focus of two religions based upon the same roots, who was it?

What changes happened from the original roots of these two dominant religions, Christianity and Islam, that have caused the children of humanity to become bitter enemys, sometimes combatants in the modern world?

We can examine the different words of these texts, but it is impossible to make an impartial examination of this subject until one understands that Men Create Religion with the experiences and observations of the universe around them.

The fact is .. without man/ humanity there would be No Bible, NO Koran, NO Face of God that is the avatar of humanity .... just the natural universe that would exist without the human race. When and if the participants of the discussion can arrive at this conclusion, another question arises .... we do exist, so how and why does humanity need this behavioral trait to balance the human conditon?

Ya know something is definitely wrong when everyone is cowtowing to some fake dictator, or blindly following some false prophet because in your culture fakers are easily spotted, but are they? The observation of human behavior seems to be that we need some respite from the truth of the universe. When this behavior of the human conditon presents itself, the confusion begins with quoting the philosophy and writings of the Bible, the Koran, and just about every other great sage we know of over the centurys. It used to totally "confuse the hell out of me" for many, many years. How did I stop being confused? Let me tell ya ...

I sat myself down, and started to write ... not about anything in particular, but whatever came to mind, or what was on my mind, until the one big question came up ... who or what was God?

All the evidence of what God is or is not is found in the phenonmena of Universe, and the behavior of human beings, but .... if there were no human beings .... would there still be a god? Conclusion? Only if God was the universe itself. Had humanity imprinted their individuality onto this connection of the universe to create understanding, or control, of other human beings? The possibilty of this being the conclusion was simply light years ahead of the positive and negative behavior profiles that the educated members of society wrestled with day in and day out.

So, in the aftermath of this epiphany, I continue to try to engage some enlightened soul into continueing a discussion that will give me the words to connect this idea of understanding that the Bible, the Koran are the creation of observations of human behavior, created by men, not from a God who is speaking to men, but the attachment of men to their own thoughts in an attempt to communicate how the universe is percieved by them through their human bodys. We are all products of the variations of stimuli of the universe around us, and although there is a science to this !!!! of variation, there is also the leap of faith that goes beyond our physical senses or our ability to reason. This leap of faith is achieved by examination what our ancestors have written and passed on to us in their writings, their history, and the blueprint of our own physical bodys that becomes what I call ... The Human Condition.

(Don't get me wrong, there is a need for some type of faith that compartmentalizes the unexplainable, the inescapable facts of life, of death, and the mysterys of the universe. Don't throw away faith because you think it doesn't serve a purpose for the educated enlighten modern human being, Faith still serves a purpose for balancing the HUMAN CONDITION.)

If we can get to that point, then the discussion about how the programming of human beings with behavioral conditioning found in the The Bible and The Koran can begin. We can finally discuss the words with some understanding as to evil that men do, and how the writers were attempting to create guideline/ laws that would change these human beings into better behaved beings who would not do the evil that lurks in each of us as part of the human conditon we have needed to survive as a species these past 100,000 or more years.

So ... what ideas did you have in mind to discuss?

[bruceb]

Very funny.

And even if the Academia did pound at my door, I could care less. It seems .... TK's hero ... Richard Dawkins has all the answers of genetic code talks that examine the Human Condition in that newly created genre'.

Each human being is a contribution to the advancement of the consciousness of human kind. Each of us merely contributes pieces for the next wonder-kid who makes the next breakthrough. Get it out of your head that fame and fortune have anything to do with discussion.

I offer some thoughts, and if they work, use them. If they don't, no big deal, they are my thoughts, my means to get through life.

Remember this simple rule of being an accepted member of society: One must not be a danger to themselves or others.

This is the simplest of rules that determines what is acceptable in society and what is not. If something is a danger, that danger will either be replaced by a greater danger, be controled, or be neutralized.

But I diverge ....

Actually, over on the "Jesus loves you...." thread, the discussion is leaning towards this very subject of " .... the evil that men do."

It takes some people a life time to get a handle on life, death, their religious faith, and how to reconcile this world we live in. Some people just set up barriers to deny certain segments of the world, and others make it so complicated they are lost in all the details, never having enough time to grasp the overall controling factors of these details, or how they affect other aspects of the human condition. We all deal with the world as it pertains to each of us, under terms we each find somewhat acceptable for our individuality.

I have come to realize .... everyone has the right to their own opinions, so long as .... they are not a danger to themselves or others. It certainly helps if you can make yourself a better person and contribute to make a better community in some way, but it is not necessary for all citizens to do so, so long as plus factors outweigh negative factors.

My expectations for continueing to reread the Koran and the Bible are that I will see the changes that were introduced into the texts, in light of my education in the last couple of years, and be able to look at these texts with new eyes that might give me a solution to changeing the radical factors that have been introduced into them to control the faithful. This task might be far, far beyond my little brain, and lack of cognition, but so long as it satisfies my own curiosity, the purpose of trying to come up with new means to connect the human race as brothers will have been accomplished. We can but try ...

This forum is a rather interesting cross-section of the present population in the martial arts, so it makes perfect sense to offer up a subject and get some input from so many people who are struggling with their identity of themselves in light of their Budo studys, but in the light of their own cultural behavioral conditioning. I find that the mistakes in the posts are sometimes the most interesting inside look into people who post in forums, especially when most of us have never met in person. Pretty much levels the playing field for a number of posts until the old emotional drives kick in, or we fall back upon our behavioral condtioning and let the emotions take over.

Oh well.

I slept in today, just waking up at 5pm eastern time after a five hour afternoon nap.

In order to discuss this subject, maybe a review of how these texts that affect the human beings who follow the words written therein would be the best thing to do BEFORE any more discussion continues on this thread. If anyone would like to discuss the four opening points I made, that might be one place to start, but please think about the conditioning that your education and society has imposed upon you in light of what the universe would be if humanity did NOT exist to impose their concieved ideas of how the universe works.

[bruceb]

In a world that is full of behavioral conditoning that seems to bring us into a world of chaos, war, and in which few people seem to grasp how to get out of this predicament, Talking about the Evil that men do in the name of their cultural or religious insights is quite appropo.

As far as Budo, well, Budo is greatly influenced by both social and religious behaviors as each individual is defending a way of lifestyle as well as a cultural idenity. When and if the majority of people who have a say in the behavoral conditioning/ education from refering to the many writings and philosophys that seem to diverge from the "So-called peacefull way", I really don't see a world peace being possible?

Gee, Howard Dean is still beating the drum about how he was the only one to oppose the war with Iraq, and he is either the greatest liar in this weeks news, or he believes that his message will brain wash enough people into voting for change, not the status quo? Too weird. Extremeist Muslims turning into terrorists and suicide bombers, and Gen. Wes Clark flip-flopping on the war in Iraq being necessary? Political expedientcy is a poor excuse for doing the right thing.

What am I talking about?

The evil that men do in the name of power, in the name of glory, in the name of making their mark in history, something I could care less about for myself, but if some of us here on E-Budo can grasp two simple concepts of Behavior Conditioning and The Human Condition ...

They'll tell two friends, and they'll tell two friends, and so on, and so on, and so on, untill most of us break out of the blind / clouded minds that lets men do the evil that they do.

Oh well .... go to http//.www.geocities.com/native_america2001/Cherokee_Prophecies.html and read the prophecies from one-hundred fifty to two hundred years ago seen by dozens of native people and tell me I am a moron. Could be, but it is even dumber to ignore the consciousness in todays world that brings these prophecies closer and closer to fruition. I don't know about you, but behavior awareness. that is a better understanding of the human condition, is about the best way to change the future from what might be, to what could be.

(Anyone who has been around my posts should know by now, I have alterior motives even when I don't consciously know I have alterior motives.)

[bruceb]

No opininions?

No discussion?

Oh well .... at least go to the link to Prophecys, would ya?

Thanks.

[Teach]

blah blah blah

No one cares..

[bruceb]

Then just let the thread die, eh teach?

Never mind ... goes to the evil that men do, I guess.

[elder999]

All of this is against my better judgement, but here goes:



originally posted by the Troll of Barnegat Light
Ah ... the evil that men do .... sometimes men themselves don't realize what they are doing because it is part of our human conditon.

We could go at this subject a couple of different ways. We could discuss the manner in which the Bible and Koran come from the same roots but shift as different people put their spin upon the same history, much as we are doing today in the study of Budo, or we could compare the tribal adoption of others into their culture, or we could talk about how certain thoughts, phrases, sounds seem to activate the human bodys responsive stimuli in the same manner as does our natural responses to mother earth giving us an uncanny connection to each religion/ each set of worded doctrine.

For our discussion, the evil that men do is the conscious and unconscious use of indoctrination of training for Budo, for religion, for bending the human condition to work human beings as a tool for an individuals goals rather the good of the tribe, or the human race. It is from this thought I reread these books and am amazed by the evil that me do.

There are a lot of reasons written and postulated for “the evil that men do.” I think-and I’m gonna say here that I don’t know much of anything-that when one is speaking of evil in the context of the conditioning imposed by the learning of great scriptures-the Bible and Quran just being two examples of many-that this can be attributed to a few things.

The first is fairly complicated, and involves the “right Man.” That guy who just knows that he’s right, that his way is best, and forgets that the commandments, tenets and strictures that are laid down for him (by men or God) are there for him, and not for him to impose on others. It seems to me that as soon as people get around to saying that “They should……” or “You have to…..” instead of “I should…….” And “I have to…..,” well, historically that has led to men doing evil, and, in fact, calling it good, or the right thing to do. The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind as just one example.

The second is that we all too readily stray from the fundamental and universal concepts written or implied in ALL scriptures, and fail to apply them to all men.

Doing evil is easily avoided if one remembers these words, and their equivalents:


The first and greatest commandment is this: Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and all your mind. The second is like unto it: love your neighbor as yourself.

And of course, forgetting this, we also forget the third, implicit commandment.

[Teach]

this thread was dead before I showed up...

I keep getting these damned messages in my email that someone ( ie..YOU ) has posted because I posted on this damned thread......

[elder999]

Originally posted by Teach
this thread was dead before I showed up...

I keep getting these damned messages in my email that someone ( ie..YOU ) has posted because I posted on this damned thread......

My, do the words "self-important pissant" have any meaning for you?:rolleyes:

[bruceb]

Originally posted by Teach
this thread was dead before I showed up...

I keep getting these damned messages in my email that someone ( ie..YOU ) has posted because I posted on this damned thread......

go you your user cp and turn it off ...

[Teach]

I fear that this is the current condition of some people on this thread.....

Guys....don't take yourselves so seriously....please.