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chizikunbo
25th December 2003, 15:35
Does anyone know any good places on the net tot learn some okinawan bo kata?

sepai 85
25th December 2003, 17:42
maybe it would be best to find a good sensei. I am by no means trying to offend but you can not learn proper martial arts over the internet or from a book or video. Do you have any past experience with the kobudo tools ?

n2shotokai
28th December 2003, 15:48
I bought Fumio Demura's bo book only to find out it is very different from the Okinawan bo kobudo I started in later. My current instructor took classes with Mr. Demura and had the same experience when he switched to Okinawan kobudo. I would suggest you decide which style you want to study and find an instructor.

Rob Alvelais
28th December 2003, 18:57
What style of Okinawan Bo?
How is Demura's kobudo different from other schools in the Taira lineage?

Rob



Originally posted by n2shotokai
I bought Fumio Demura's bo book only to find out it is very different from the Okinawan bo kobudo I started in later. My current instructor took classes with Mr. Demura and had the same experience when he switched to Okinawan kobudo. I would suggest you decide which style you want to study and find an instructor.

n2shotokai
29th December 2003, 00:12
First off I love kobudo. No wait, first off I am no expert on weapons, I just love to practise weapons. My impression of weapons training under Sho Kosugi (was he not as student of Mr. Demura) and the bo practice I saw in Mr. Demura's book versus the Okinawan Kobudo was Okinawan is no frills straight out combat. What I observed with Mr. Demura's book and with Sho Kosugi was I shall say a more circular style with a sprinkle of flash and dash. For example, in Fumio Demura's book there is a spinning technique where you grip the bow in the middle with your hands close together. Although I have seen this in an "official" Okinawan kobudo website, it does not exist in my current style.

Mr. Alvelais, I shall PM you with a link a site with our Kyoshi's bio and lineage. Perhaps this will answer your lineage question as I am very unqualified to answer.

chizikunbo
29th December 2003, 17:19
I just bought Mr. Demura's "BO" book from www.oddessy.com it seems to be pretty practical. But does any one know what style this is from? Shito Ryu, Shroin Ryu ect.?
Thanks,

Rob Alvelais
29th December 2003, 17:22
Originally posted by chizikunbo
I just bought Mr. Demura's "BO" book from www.oddessy.com it seems to be pretty practical. But does any one know what style this is from? Shito Ryu, Shroin Ryu ect.?
Thanks,

Mr. Demura studied karate and Kobudo from Both Ryusho Sakagami and Shinken Taira. Sakagami was a regional head for Taira's organization for a while. So, I would suspect that the kata presented in his book is a Taira version of Shushi no kon.

Rob

Rob Alvelais
29th December 2003, 17:35
Originally posted by n2shotokai
First off I love kobudo. No wait, first off I am no expert on weapons, I just love to practise weapons. My impression of weapons training under Sho Kosugi (was he not as student of Mr. Demura)
Yes he was.

and the bo practice I saw in Mr. Demura's book versus the Okinawan Kobudo was Okinawan is no frills straight out combat. What I observed with Mr. Demura's book and with Sho Kosugi was I shall say a more circular style with a sprinkle of flash and dash.
You're not talking about the kata presented? That's simply Shushi no kon. Pretty straightforward. As for his warm ups, drills and defense maneuvers in there, well that's a different matter. I'd weigh your judgement about flash on the kata, vs. the other stuff.

For example, in Fumio Demura's book there is a spinning technique where you grip the bow in the middle with your hands close together. Although I have seen this in an "official" Okinawan kobudo website, it does not exist in my current style.


IMO, one can't really look at the warm ups and other supplemental training to make that determination. The meat of the system is in the kata. And, in this book the meat is really the kata presented. That's pretty straight forward and without frills. The stuff in the book surrounding the kata, is something else.

For example, I sometimes use the kid's games of Jump Rope and Dodge ball to teach certain concepts. But, are Jump Rope and dodge ball karate? Sometimes, for dexterity, I have my students do a front kick, round kick, hook kick without putting the foot down. That's pretty frilly, but it's a dexterity drill. I don't have intentions of using it as a techniqe in kumite or combat. Is that karate?
You get my drift?

Rob

chizikunbo
29th December 2003, 17:36
OK

n2shotokai
29th December 2003, 18:40
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais

For example, I sometimes use the kid's games of Jump Rope and Dodge ball to teach certain concepts. But, are Jump Rope and dodge ball karate? Sometimes, for dexterity, I have my students do a front kick, round kick, hook kick without putting the foot down. That's pretty frilly, but it's a dexterity drill. I don't have intentions of using it as a techniqe in kumite or combat. Is that karate?
You get my drift?

Rob [/B]
I would say yes, that is karate as it teaches the skills you described. And I do get your drift. Although I was not referring to warm ups or kata, I was referring to kihon and I must stress again my opinion carries no weight as weapons are a passion, not by any means my expertise. In bo practise I found even the grip to be different. Although I have spent very litte time in nunchaku in the Okinawan system, it is worlds apart from what I learned with Sho Kosugi. Ditto for sai. Other weapons such as tonfa are new to me so I am not only clueless as to differences but downright ignorant.

Did the link I provided answer your questions regarding lineage and differences?

Rob Alvelais
29th December 2003, 19:59
Originally posted by n2shotokai


Did the link I provided answer your questions regarding lineage and differences?

Sorry, no. I didn't notice any descriptions of the difference between Matayoshi Kobudo and Ufuchiku system. As for differences between the various Taira schools that I've seen and the Matayoshi kobudo that I've seen, I don't see that much difference in how they wield the bo.

Rob

Old Dragon
31st December 2003, 07:48
Most of Fumio Demura's bo work comes from Shinken Taira, or as Mr. Demura calls him Mr. Taira.

I am not dropping names here but I had the fortunate opportunity of talking to Mr. Demura about just this subject several years ago. He flatly said that the differences, that he was teaching at that time, between Ryu Kyu Kobudo as taught by Akamine and all those out of Shinken Taira's ryuha were developed by himself after coming to north america. He felt that it made teaching simpler.

My impression was that to him the kata that he learned years ago were drills and therefore he did not have the fear of imputting part of his own ideas into them that we seem to have in north america. Just an observation and not to be taken as his opinion.

His changes were minor and more stylizing than anything else. We actually talked about the kata in his book which is Shushi no kun sho which is the first bo kata of Ryu Kyu Kobudo stylists. In our dicussion we compared the two and had a great time. I was facinated at his logic and simple view of what it was we were actually performing. He is a fantastic teacher and a wonderful person.

I had the fortunate experience of walking into his dojo, found him in a gi haveing a heart to heart dicussion with a 8 or 9 year boy about his attitude in the dojo, my first reaction was "anyone who takes the time for kids is all right by me" we had a very interesting dicussion and I have visited his dojo's several times since

MIke O'Leary

Old Dragon
31st December 2003, 08:02
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Sorry, no. I didn't notice any descriptions of the difference between Matayoshi Kobudo and Ufuchiku system. As for differences between the various Taira schools that I've seen and the Matayoshi kobudo that I've seen, I don't see that much difference in how they wield the bo.

Rob



Rob, there are two main differences that I have experienced.

1. Taira Shinken's school (Ryu Kyu Kobudo Hozon shinku kai) and off shoots of this school have stronger and deeper stances than I have seen and trained with Matayoshi trained Sensei. (I hold rank in Ryu Kyu Kobudo Tesshin kan and have trained with Matayoshi trained sensei for about 7 years or so.

2. One of the more subtle differences is that Matayoshi have one bo position where the bo rests on the outside of the arm. IE in a side strike and poke strike. (poke meaning sliding as a pool que would move) it looks weird, in the beginning it feels weird but man can you make that stick move if you keep it outside and not tucked under your arm. It also changes the concept of the strike from one of a jab as compared to a reverse punch. So you may not hit him as hard but you hit him 20 extra times. (This is not a foreign concept for many okinawan karate people)

This seems awkward to some in the beginning to those that have been trained for years to have the bo under the arm, but if you play with it a bit you will realize how fast it can be and how defensive it can be if somone grabs your bo.

My experience with ryu kyu kobudo is a strong style rooted in body mechanics with lots of hip action, low strong stances and strong techniques.

Matayoshi ryuha seems a little less focused on the stances and focuses on speed and quick movements.

Once again this is my experience over the last 7 years, it would not surprise me that different students training under different sensei would have a different impression.

Mike O'Leary

Rob Alvelais
31st December 2003, 16:30
Mike,

Thanks. Good posts. You're right about Mr. Demura. I've interacted with him loads of times. He's great guy to be around and takes his responsibility as a role model for the kids very seriously.

I was aware of the positioning of the bo on the outside of the forearm in Matayoshi kobudo. Thanks for the descriptions of the other differences.

Rob

Matt Wolfson
21st January 2004, 16:18
Hello,
Were does Odo Sensi fit into the scheme of things? I am not sure if his organization is still intact after his passing last year but it was called the UKKF or IKKF. Damn I never could keep tract of the politics and name changes... I know we practice some of Matayoshi's Bo Kata and Nakamura's stuff as well. But am not sure who studied with who.... any help would be appricated. Some of the Bo Kata we practice:
Shiho nuke bo
Chun no kun
Shioshi no kun ich
Shioshi no kun ni
Bo vs Bo

Sai
Nakamura no sai
-Littlepond

Old Dragon
22nd January 2004, 08:29
Were does Odo Sensi fit into the scheme of things? I am not sure if his organization is still intact after his passing last year but it was called the UKKF or IKKF.



Matt> I know several Odo Sensei, do you have a full name? The IKKF that I know of is a group effort. Do you know what style of kobudo Odo Sensei practices? Perhaps I could find out a bit about him for you.

Mike O'Leary

Matt Wolfson
22nd January 2004, 14:36
His instructor (one of many I am told)- Shigero Nakamura
"Master Odo renamed the “Okinawa Kenpo Karate Kobudo Federation” the “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu Federation”, and changed the name of the arts taught by him to “Ryukyu Hon Kenpo Kobujutsu”." I think these where the changes he made. There where also some other changes/reorginations done here in the states as well. I know Heilman out of York was closely affliated with Odo for a while and then spilt and renamed the organization again? I cant keep up with it all. I am really after linage on Odo....
-Littlepond

Mitch Saret
24th January 2004, 01:40
The gentleman's name was Seikichi Odo. He was a contemporary of Seiyu (Taika) Oyata.

chizikunbo
31st January 2004, 04:39
yes odo sensais org. is still around the ikkf i beleif hanchi bruce heilmen(or somthing likr that ) is now head of the org:D