Shorinji-Ryu Jujutsu - Koryu or not?

[Kamuii]

Greetings!

I heard of a style of Jujutsu called Shorinji-Ryu Jujutsu and I was wondering if this style was koryu or not...does anyone know for sure?


Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

[MarkF]

Well, in a word, no, at least from what I know of it. The name above is from a school, mainly located in the UK, which goes by the above name, if I am not mistaken. There is a fella who goes by the handle ROB who does this, so if you are out there, Rob, please drop in because I am in way over my head.;)

In the form I describe, it is definitely gendai, but who's counting? From my understanding, besides the te arts learned in this, the jujutsu is modern, and those who do practice it are noted to have studied Jigoro Kano's nage no kata thus, it isn't koryu. On the other hand, I only know so much, as there is some buddhist connections to this art for some and this, at least, goes back a way.

The jujutsu is supposedly related heavily to the kito ryu school of jujutsu, an older one, and although a kyu/dan system is used in grading training levels, it may have started with the menkyo system.

Anyway, that is what I know.

I hope it helps some.

Mark

[Kamuii]

Thanks Mark! :)

Now you wrote that it was "Shorinji kan kenpo jujutsu" and the one I saw with the patch was "Shorinji-Ryu Jujutsu" and it is practiced in the US, but I do not know if in any other country too, which I am guessing that it is.

Best,

Arnold

[Richard Elias]

Arnold,

Shorinji is Japanese for Shaolin. The art is a Japanese version descended from the Chinese art. I believe the advanced practitioners are even ordained as monks and wear a version of a monk's robes when training. It is a gendai form with influences from the Daito Ryu if I'm not mistaken. There is a Shorinji forum up in the Gendai Budo section here at E-Budo, you can probably get alot more info there.

[Rob]

I practice a style called Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu.

The majority of the clubs are in the UK but there are some in Canada and the U.S. The style is most definately not Koryu.

A brief history as I understand it.

The founder of the style was call Ruikyu Miura (Not sure of spelling). The oral history within our style is that he trained with Doshin So (hence the Shorinji link) and also Kodokan Judo.

I have done a little research but have found no evidence to support or disprove this to date. I have also heard that he may have been an inspector in Tokyo Police force.

What I do know is that after the war he taught Mathew Komp who had come to Japan to study Judo. Mr Komp moved to Australia where he taught Judo openly and JuJitsu (which was illegal for a while in Australia) to selected students.

One of these was a young man from Yorkshire in the UK called Brian Graham. Mr Graham studied until he recieved 5th Dan and then moved back to the UK where he started a club in Keithly in Yorkshire. His top student was Peter Farrar.

Pete founded "The Jitsu Foundation" which spread primarily through universities and colleges in the UK. There are now many clubs in the UK and a number in Canada, the USA and a couple of other countries.

Distinguishing features of the art are that it now only grades to 3rd Dan. The Seniors of the art where a black over gi similar to those seen in Shorinji Kempo (although without the distincitve white rope belt).

Also as an art the emphasis in on simple and effective techniques for modern self defence situations.

If any body wants more information please feel free to post here or drop me an e-mail on robwallis@hotmail.com

Hwyl

Robert

[Arne Oster]

Hi,
There is a USA-based style called Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu as taught by Sensei Ken Penland, 10th Dan and Sensei George Alexander, 9th Dan. It seems to be a modern system with
some Judo and Aiki elements, as far as I can tell.
Regards
Arne Oster

[Kamuii]

Arne:

Yes, that's the one! Ok, so it is not koryu, right?


Best,

Arnold

[MarkF]

Hi, Rob,
Of course I should have gone to the mail you sent, as I still have it, but that didn't occur to me. It was easier for you to explain what I did, except of course, all my errors. I do remember that you do the nage no kata. Apologies all round if any were misinformed.

Mark

[Joseph Svinth]

The organization's headquarters are in California, and its only known affiliation is through the American Ju-Jitsu Association, founded 1972. The AJA website is http://www.budoshin.com/aja.html , and there one finds "Prof. Ken Penland, klp@loop.com "

I'm sure if you'd write Professor Penland he could give you great detail about his system's history.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 10-13-2000 at 03:27 AM]

[Kamuii]

Thanks Joe! :)

Arnold

[Anders Pettersson]

Hi.
I have a question to Robert Wallis (Rob).


Originally posted by Rob
I practice a style called Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu.
...
A brief history as I understand it.

The founder of the style was call Ruikyu Miura (Not sure of spelling). The oral history within our style is that he trained with Doshin So (hence the Shorinji link) and also Kodokan Judo.

Do you have any more information on how long this Ruikyu Miura did practice Shorinji Kempo?
And also did he practice directly under So Doshin?

Is there a style in Japan today called Shorinji Kan Jujitsu or is that a name that was "invented" later by Mr. Mathew Komp?
What I mean is that did Ruikyu Miura teach Mathew Komp "Shorinji Kan Jujitsu" or just a mixture of the techniques (Shorinji Kempo and Judo) that he had learned?



Originally posted by Rob
Distinguishing features of the art are that it now only grades to 3rd Dan. The Seniors of the art where a black over gi similar to those seen in Shorinji Kempo (although without the distincitve white rope belt).


The "overgi" that we use in Shorinji Kempo is called Hoi and the belt is actually not white, but beige. The Hoi is also used in other Buddist groups. I've seen it different times at temples in Japan, but never together with the obi that we use in Shorinji Kempo.

The "black over gi" that you use in Shorinji Kan Jujitsu, how does it look? Do you have any link to pictures on the net?


Anders

www.shorinji-kempo.org

[Rob]

Mr Petterssen,

I cut this text from one our clubs home pages

"Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu was founded by Riukiu Myura, a policeman and later chief unarmed combat instructor at the Tokyo police academy. Since a child, he had studied extensively in various jiu jitsu schools (mainly Kodokan judo), as well as the art of Shorinji Kempo. He later combined his knowledge of jiu jitsu and Shorinji Kempo and, with his police perspective on modern street fighting situations, formed his own style which he named Shorinji Kempo Jiu Jitsu. "

That's about the limit of my information at the moment, I wonder if you are aware of any archive where I might be able the check membership records of Shorinji Kempo to confirm any of this information ?.

I haven't been able to find a picture of the "over gi" online yet but I do have some photo's I can scan and e-mail if you'd like?

If there's any other information that you'd like please feel free to drop me a private message on e-budo.

[Rob]

To anybody who's interested.

Found this link to some pictures of the over Gi.

http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs222/main.htm

Sorry about the quality of the pics.

[GCP]

Shorinji kempo and 'shorinji kan jiu jitsu' are completly seperate. Matt Komp trained in Germany, not Japan, and the people who taught him, trained pre WW2, probably at the Kodokan. Whatever you want to call it, it predates the founding of Shorinji Kempo by So Doshin.

The UK based 'shorinji kan jiu jitsu', actualy called the Jitsu Foundation, is mainly based on the self defence aspects of judo. If you look at their tecniques list, its amost all judo, with bits of aikido and karate. They are good at what they do, but have an awful lot of incorrect information about their history on their web sites.

[Mukeido]

I cannot comment on anything of this style or for what else has been said here, but I would like to know where this comment came from - "Mr Komp moved to Australia where he taught Judo openly and JuJutsu (which was illegal for a while in Australia) to selected students."

Can you point me to some evidence for this claim? No martial traditions from anywhere have ever been illegal here in Oz.

[GCP]

The story I've heard concerning this is that at the time, the courts looked more favorably on judo being used as self defence than jiu jitsu. So he taught both judo and jiu jitsu simultainiously. But with seperate grades in each. If anybody ever used it in a real fight, they could tell the police they used judo.

[Aegis]

Shorinji kempo and 'shorinji kan jiu jitsu' are completly seperate. Matt Komp trained in Germany, not Japan, and the people who taught him, trained pre WW2, probably at the Kodokan. Whatever you want to call it, it predates the founding of Shorinji Kempo by So Doshin.

The UK based 'shorinji kan jiu jitsu', actualy called the Jitsu Foundation, is mainly based on the self defence aspects of judo. If you look at their tecniques list, its amost all judo, with bits of aikido and karate. They are good at what they do, but have an awful lot of incorrect information about their history on their web sites.

Most members of the Jitsu Foundation tend to just go with the description of "UK Jujutsu" for our style now rather than trying to untangle the rather complex web of stories surrounding our origins. There is certainly evidence of Judo influence within our style, but to call it Judo with a bit of karate and aikido would not feel quite right, as to my knowledge none of the founders of the style had actually studied either karate or aikido, but instead jujutsu (whether this was the kodokan self defence techniques taken from jujutsu or an older style is open to debate).

In any case, we make no claims to being a koryu style of jujutsu, or even a Japanese style any more, we are just the Jitsu Foudnation, nothing more, nothing less.

[NickR]

I started Jitsu a few weeks ago.

You can download the syllabus: http://www.jitsufoundation.org/members/syllabus1.asp

Its pretty clear its a modern style, emphasis is on self-defense from looking at the above syllabus.

Here is the best, most believable (in my eyes) history I can find:

http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/history6.htm

IMHO Shorinji Kan Ju Jutsu is a large mix of Koryu Ju Jitsu and Kodokan Judo (which is a modern form of Ju Jitsu) with a little Shorinji Kempo influence (which is jiu jitsu and Chinese Shaolin martial arts from my understanding), from Riukiu Myura, which Matthew Komp learnt from him and in Brian Graham learnt from and started Shorinji Kan Ju Jutsu as we know it today...

Which basically means Shorinji Kan Ju Jitsu is a modern mix with no direct linage, but has strong Ju Jutsu roots.

[Howard Thiery]

Nick,
what is your basis for thinking it is made up of koryu jujitsu? You may very well be right but it is my experience that koryu jujitsu is very diferent than most folks think and bears little relationship to modern amalgamated styles. I'm curious to know what you base the comparison on.

Cheers,
H

[NickR]

Nick,
what is your basis for thinking it is made up of koryu jujitsu? You may very well be right but it is my experience that koryu jujitsu is very diferent than most folks think and bears little relationship to modern amalgamated styles. I'm curious to know what you base the comparison on.

Cheers,
H

Sorry, did'nt mean to say its made up of Koryu Ju Jitsu, rather its a modern Ju Jitsu, like Judo is. And that it is based on a mix of Koryu Ju Jitsu and Kodokan Jitsu/Judo, as opposed to being totally made up.

Is that clearer ? Hope it helps.

[Howard Thiery]

Actually..its still unclear to me. I took it the first time the same way you explained the second.

Koryu Jujitsu is very different than modern jujitsu and judo and very different than most people picture. So when a modern school says it encorporates elements of koryu I am always puzzled what those elements might be. While sometimes it turns out it is true to some extent more often than not the person making the statement has no sense of what koryu jujitsu is and is mistaken.

That being said I was really just curious.

cheers,
H

[yoj]

I guess its the idea that ultimately _all_ jujutsu comes from koryu origins, even if you base an art purely on the technical content of judo for it's grappling and throwing techniques, it does have a koryu ancestry, even though you may not know what that is, as it was abstracted out a loooong time ago...

anyway koryu is the new ninja, which was the old aikido, which was the old kung fu, which was the old judo, which was the old karate. where does Tom Cruise come in again?

[NickR]

I guess its the idea that ultimately _all_ jujutsu comes from koryu origins, even if you base an art purely on the technical content of judo for it's grappling and throwing techniques, it does have a koryu ancestry, even though you may not know what that is, as it was abstracted out a loooong time ago...

Yes that what I mean... as opposed to a made up Martial Art thats conviniently called Ju Jitsu.

My first language is English and also my worst :|

[Howard Thiery]

OK...fair play then and cheers to you both,

H

[Howard Quick]

Hi All,
Is Matt Komp still teaching?
I believe he teaches, (or at least used to) out of a gym just down the road from where I live, if it's the same Matt Komp. Don't suppose there could be that many Matt Komp's around!?
I believe he was very good at judo?

[NickR]

Barkly street , West Footscray, Melbourne I saw being mentioned somewhere.
He started a club called the Footscray Judo/Ju Jitsu club I think..

[NickR]

I found this tonight whilst looking for info on Brian Graham.

http://www.cityjitsu.org/content.php?node=14&moviesource=2

"But its history actually goes back to the mid 50s when Brian, carrying out his national service in the RAF, took up judo. He had also been keen on boxing and weight lifting.

He later trained as a textile dyer and in the late 1950s he and his wife Jean emigrated to Australia and made their home in Melbourne.

And it was in that city where his passion for ju-jitsu was fired after joining a martial arts club."

So he actually started Judo before Ju-Jitsu.

Also of note:

""I was so enthusiastic, and before long I was upgraded and eventually I got my black belt and became a teacher. It took me six years, training three times a week."

It was at this time that Brian developed new techniques using hand holds to incapacitate attackers and produced his own style of the art.
"

Just wish I could find out more about Matthew Komp.

[Neil Hawkins]

This is all I could find out, and I can't vouch for the accuracy, the details come from Komp himself and were supplied to the Australian JuJutsu Association as far as I can tell.



KOMP Mathiew John Victoria
Born: Gem_ nd Germany WJJF 01514
23 Smith Crescent Footscay 3011 Melbourne

Judo - Jiu Jitsu - Karate " SAMURAI " club
Instructor 1950 - 1953 Germany
1953 Melbourne
Jiu Jitsu 8th Dan Judo 5th Dan Karate Aikido

GRADING
-------
THE JUDO FEDERATION OF AUSTRALIA No 4047
4th DAN 24/04/1983
DEUTSCH-KOREANISCHE KARATE VERBAND (e.V)
1st DAN TAEKWON- DO 10/01/1976
KOREA YUDO ACADEMY SEOUL KOREA No 1646
3rd DAN JUDO 04/12/1973 LEE JE-HWANG
INTERNATIONAL JUDO FEDERATION 31/01/1984 No AU-4047-00051 4th DAN JUDO

SELFDEFENCE JIU JITSU 8th DAN
KODOKAN JUDO INTERNATIONAL 5th DAN
AIKIDO JAPAN 1st DAN
TEAKWONDO KOREAN 1st DAN

SPECIAL A GRADE COACH JUDO
INST 1950 -1953 WEST GERMANY
1953 TO PRESENT DATE VICTORIA CHIEF INST AND COACH
AFFILIATIONS: JUDO FEDERATION OF AUSTRALIA
EUROPEAN-GERMAN JIU JITSU, KARATE ASSOCIATION.
HEAD INST. JUDO, JIU JITSU, KARATE "SAMURAI CLUB"



Regards

Neil

[MarkF]

Judo - Jiu Jitsu - Karate " SAMURAI " club
Instructor 1950 - 1953 Germany
1953 Melbourne
Jiu Jitsu 8th Dan Judo 5th Dan Karate Aikido


In 1953 Germany, Judo was usually referred to as jiu jitsu, so it is confusing. Is it an 8-dan in Jiu Jitsu[sic], 5th-dan judo or 8th dan judo/jiujitsu, 5-dan Karate and Aikido? Is this club grade or is it registered with the Judo Federation of Australia (which I believe is the name of the NGB of Oz under the IJF)? This is confusing enough and that far back I wouldn't hold anyone to that. Well, actually, yes I would. It just does not look very neat and I would certainly take Neil at his word that it was given by Komp, as they say, "kuden" so the order of things is understandable. I have a friend who is the founer of three well-known judo dojo in the Los Angeles, Ca. area who is German and first trained in judo in the 1950s and was a German National Champ. That could be checked, too, to how things were done that far back. I doubt there was a national judo/jiujitsu organization in 1951-53, though there may have been several claims of such at the time. Besides, the IJF was not formed until sometime after 1951.


THE JUDO FEDERATION OF AUSTRALIA No 4047
4th DAN 24/04/1983

This makes a lot more sense to me and is easily checked, first with the IJF to see if the NGB of Australia in Judo is the Judo Federation of Australia. By 1983, rank cards would almost certainly contain only a number with no grade, but it would match up with their records. But it makes sense so I wouldn't question this.


KOREA YUDO ACADEMY SEOUL KOREA No 1646
3rd DAN JUDO 04/12/1973 LEE JE-HWANG

I know this organization. Jon Bluming received his 4-dan in Korean Yudo (Judo) sometime between 1961-1963.

Nevertheless, it can be checked by giving only the number and in return, one should receive the person's name and grade whether or not they are still a member.


INTERNATIONAL JUDO FEDERATION 31/01/1984 No AU-4047-00051 4th DAN JUDO

Ordinarily this would be entirely contrived as the IJF does not grade anyone, NGBs do that, but as his grade with the


THE JUDO FEDERATION OF AUSTRALIA No 4047
4th DAN 24/04/1983

is also a 4-dan with the NGB of Australia and the number is the same (4047), even with the different dates, it was probably always the Judo Federation of Australia. The 4-dan there is certainly believeable. Why it is listed twice is beyond me. The only "grades" issued by the IJF are honorary grades and there are none lower than 8-dan, and they have issued to 10-dan, one to the late Charles Palmer of England and the other on the same day to Anton Geesink. No one takes these seriously especially the one issued to Geesink.


I have no idea what these are:


SELFDEFENCE JIU JITSU 8th DAN
KODOKAN JUDO INTERNATIONAL 5th DAN

Whatever Kodokan Judo International means in this context is anyone's guess. My guess is that someone gave him a 5-dan in Kodokan Judo, but other than the odd dojo that may call itself by that name, no legitimate grading body exists by that name. If he did go to the Kodokan to get a 5-dan, he would have had to start at shodan and work his way to 5-dan there. They do not recognize anyone above shodan unless earned in the Tokyo Kodokan or the Osaka Kodokan.

I have no idea how to verify the Taekwondo grade or the aikido grade. The aikido grade probably would have taken a number of years, however, depending on which style or school of aikido (there is a thread on the different styles of Kodokan and how the differ in the Aikido forum called, I believe "What ? is Aikido?"

Basically, there does seem to be a way to check his judo grade due to the numbered card account at the Australian Federation of Judo. But it would not be registered with the IJF, at least not as coming from it.

As to everything else, it seems to be "created" but as everyone else who claims some grade in Kodokan Judo, it can be checked...easily. Probably the jiu jitsu grade from the 1950s, as well, though I doubt the 8-dan. I do not doubt his 4-dan received by number by the AJF, but not the IJF grade unless he meant that the JFA is the NB of Australia under the International Judo Federation. But why give it twice with identical numbers?

Anyway, those are just some thoughts on Mr. Komp's resume.


Mark

[slappymcdoobry2]

I have actually met Matthew Komp on a couple of occasions and technically he is one of the forerunners of the style i do. He is certainly a colourful character and his use of Australian terminology (having lived there for many years) with a strong German accent is often amusing and sometimes bizarre!
To be honest, one of the problems with many modern ryu is the inability to trace much of the lineage from one person to the next, especially in Europe post 2nd world war. It would seem from his style of throwing (and remember he is quite an old man) there is a lot of Judo basis to it, however, he also teaches a number of techniques that are almost identical to reference manuals you would find on Kodokan Judo from the early years which would include all the weapons defences etc.
Is he legitimate? Not Sure, but he makes no attempt to declare that he is the founder/head of family/soke etc of a traditional ryu. His legitimacy for me is answered in the next question
Is he competent? Definitely, he performed a couple of techniques on me, and considering his age and post cardiac operation i would say that he definitely knew what he was doing!
The reference to Shorinji comes from the name that Brian Graham (one of his students) coined when he came back to the UK from Australia, he referred to the style as Shorinji Kan (not Kempo). The Shorinji Kempo link was identified by Komp when he went to Japan and people observing a demo he performed said it looked similar to Shorinji Kempo. Interestingly, Matthew does not wear Hakama, nor does he where the robes similar to Shorinji Kempo, these were mostly emphasised by Brian and his most senior student Peter Farrar (sadly both Pete and Brian have now passed away so difficult to ask them why.)

[GCP]

This is the Wikipedia entry for 'Shorinji Kan'/Jitsu Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jitsu_Foundation).


The Jitsu foundation (TJF) is a hybrid Jujutsu system founded by Brian Graham. Its sylabus techniques are a mixture of Kito Ryu and Sorinji Ryu. Originally founded in Yorkshire (UK) by Shihan Brian Graham in 1991. The Jitsu Foundation has had success in establishing its clubs throughout the British University system with the help of the NUS Student Unions.

A recent trend seems to be they imply a kito ryu link, this is mentioned on there official web site (http://www.jitsufoundation.org/) too.

[KroSha]

I am a 1st Kyu in TJF, and there's been some comment on the "relevant to us" inclusion in the TJF web-site.

As far as I understand it, this is because we draw heavily from Judo and the traditions of the Kodokan. And, of course, the Kodokan was partly based from Kito-ryu.

As far as I can tell, I have never heard anyone in the upper echelons of TJF even pretend to claim that we do koryu Kito-Ryu Jiu Jitsu. We are definately a modern martial art and one that changes and adapts a fair bit.

Dan Ebeck